Stona

Server Update 11.02.2019

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Regarding the removed. Ha-Go, FCM 36 and H.35. We will have some news to share on them in the future as well as the possibility of their return / obtainment. 

 

The developers are currently hard at work on the current change and we will have further updates and news to share in the near future. 

 

Thank you all for your continued feedback. We are still reviewing and passing daily :salute:

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 Gaijin, why are Russian APDSFS and other shells almost unchanged or not change at all? And how does the 120mm DM 23 have less pen than the DM 13? Again this is a huge nerf for western APDSFS. I really don't see any logic in nerfing shells into ground that have official documents regarding performance. L7 DM 23 APDSFS is now almost useless and does 0 damage to an IS 3. Wtf?

Edited by NoodleCup31
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Personally this change is disappointing to me, i loved low tier battles and now a lot of lower tier vehicles have been tossed into the gutter making them utterly worthless because of this new system

Cromwell Mk.5, Sherman, Jumbo, Churchill Mk.7 all with the 75mm gun cant be effective anymore because their gun cant surpass 100mm of armor now despite many sources where 75mm Shermans got trough the frontal armor of tigers

Rank 1 and 2 France and Japan now just is even worse, i mean at least with the old penetration system we could use Rank 1 Japan and France

Also a lot of Upgraded shells now are hardly even upgrades anymore and sometimes even preforms worse than the stock shells like the second shell for the T-35-57 just is worse in general for no reason


but there are some minor changes i liked like that the 76mm gun on the Late Sherman's now have better armor penetration but these are still pretty minor

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14 minutes ago, Nyctelea said:

Does this mean there is a possibility of seeing WW1 era tanks such as the Mark IV Male since their guns "don't provide any real firepower"?

 

No. 

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I am highly against the removal of iconic vehicles that are notable to history. Better to be in as "alternate sidegrades with known downsides" than just removed entirely.

 

Just because I get to keep some of them matters nothing. New players won't be able to get tanks they know, love, are interested in.

 

Very poor change in that regard, and I dearly hope Gaijin will reconsider the historical fun of the game for people who want to try them out just for the hell of it. To people interested in Japanese tanks, this like like if the Americans didn't get a Sherman. The Ha-Go is their most produced vehicle.

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2 hours ago, DebtlessWalnut said:

The Ha-Go was the most produced and iconic Japanese tank of WW2. Why remove it when you can use actual historical documentation for its ammunition or update its gun to the Type 98 with Type 1 ammunition? You are removing the face of the Japanese armored forces.

I couldn't have said it better myself. This change is completely wrong. They would rather delete an entire vehicle than to give it a shell that is already in the game or utilize real historical documents. I thought this game was supposed to have an air of realism, not utter fantasy. 

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12 minutes ago, Cpt_Jack_Irons said:

Personally this change is disappointing to me, i loved low tier battles and now a lot of lower tier vehicles have been tossed into the gutter making them utterly worthless because of this new system

Cromwell Mk.5, Sherman, Jumbo, Churchill Mk.7 all with the 75mm gun cant be effective anymore because their gun cant surpass 100mm of armor now despite many sources where 75mm Shermans got trough the frontal armor of tigers

Rank 1 and 2 France and Japan now just is even worse, i mean at least with the old penetration system we could use Rank 1 Japan and France

Also a lot of Upgraded shells now are hardly even upgrades anymore and sometimes even preforms worse than the stock shells like the second shell for the T-35-57 just is worse in general for no reason


but there are some minor changes i liked like that the 76mm gun on the Late Sherman's now have better armor penetration but these are still pretty minor



The M61 round on the Shermans still has 101mm of pen at 100m.

 

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38 minutes ago, duckmartin said:

L23A1 is incorrect it doesn't match this document.

 

vtTxVR0rf_s.png

 

Please read the dev blog to understand how shells are now calculated and which shells this affects: https://warthunder.com/en/news/6010-development-improved-calculation-of-armour-penetration-in-the-game-en

13 minutes ago, Electrolite_xyz said:

Why you never said you would remove those vehicles? I could easily get some of them for collection purpose, bad move Gaijin

 

Anyone with an account currently will have all of the reserve vehicles removed. This change will only affect new accounts registered after the change. 

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2 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 

Please read the dev blog to understand how shells are now calculated and which shells this affects: https://warthunder.com/en/news/6010-development-improved-calculation-of-armour-penetration-in-the-game-en

 

Anyone with an account currently will have all of the reserve vehicles removed. This change will only affect new accounts registered after the change. 

I thought we had L23A1 mostly sorted out in this bug report ?

 

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 why is the supposed better rounds now worse than the first type of APFSDS rounds for top tier?

like the L23A1 is now worse than the L23, the M735 if now better than the m774, and the DM 13 is now better than the DM33, why?
why whould you do this? 

Edited by Antezscar
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Why don't devs just introduce more "low firepower" vehicles and expand the BR system to give Ha-go et. al  a worthy place?

edit: also why not use the R.39 as the French reserve, due to its lower speed?

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37 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 

Please read the dev blog to understand how shells are now calculated and which shells this affects: https://warthunder.com/en/news/6010-development-improved-calculation-of-armour-penetration-in-the-game-en

 

Anyone with an account currently will have all of the reserve vehicles removed. This change will only affect new accounts registered after the change. 

I already calculatet it with the data i found in the Internet on the refered site. My result was 466mm of pen and not 410mm. Maybe the problem was, they took Steel as a material not Tungsten carbid as it was used by the Leopard 2.

So please recalculate it with real Facts like the density of the material and the actual material

Edited by Motu_88
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3 hours ago, _Iluminas_ said:

yea unified pen system would be good but with ur calculator thats not going to work as u generalize every shell even if they are different like flat russian APCB to sharp US APCB etc. there are many more examples and with that what the calculator dosnt work 

to summarize i am 100% against the new system

100% Agree. Absolutely no effect on any Russian shell, hell even big buff to them. The DM33 can't even pen the turret of a T64 B anymore which even the DM 23 should be able to (hell the DM 23 has now less pen than DM 13 wtf). Keep the adjustments for AP/APC/APCBC and change BRs. But remove all changes to wester APDSFS or nerf Russian ones as well. Look at Abrams M774, 350 mm flat pen, worse than M735 (on Premium XM 1, mhh weird no change or DM 13 on premium Leo, hmm no change, also not in tech tree of course. Expensive ammo nerfed). Whole update is messed up imo.

Edited by NoodleCup31
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38 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 

Please read the dev blog to understand how shells are now calculated and which shells this affects: https://warthunder.com/en/news/6010-development-improved-calculation-of-armour-penetration-in-the-game-en

 

Anyone with an account currently will have all of the reserve vehicles removed. This change will only affect new accounts registered after the change. 

So War Thunder can no longer bill itself as realistic as it ignores reality.

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2 hours ago, Wildweasel6157 said:

Still confused as to how this makes sense; every US vehicle I've looked at, save the T29, now has lower penetration values AT ALL ANGLES when using standard AP ammo. Sure, this makes the ballistic capped shells an actual upgrade, but wouldn't a shell with no filler have a better ability to maintain its trajectory through armor, as long as it wasn't going to ricochet?

 

High tier APFSDS numbers seem mixed up for most nations (although the upgraded shells for the USSR 115/125mm cannon seem to be buffed.........); for many of the 'upgraded' shells, the numbers are much closer, equal, or even worse, all while still ringing up the overpriced SL cost.

 

My question to end with is: why are you making these rather drastic changes, vs fixing what should be simple things like the terrible lag/FPS drop in the helicopter event (to include the ridiculous weight of flares), the cost of the M8 rocket launcher reloads (30 something k SL...) in the US ship line, or adjusting BRs and costs of vehicles, repairs, and ammo?

Well all Russian APDSFS were not affected. Western APDSFS nerfed into ground with absolutely random numbers and giving a M774 les pen than M735 or DM 23 less than DM 13

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36 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 

Please read the dev blog to understand how shells are now calculated and which shells this affects: https://warthunder.com/en/news/6010-development-improved-calculation-of-armour-penetration-in-the-game-en

 

Anyone with an account currently will have all of the reserve vehicles removed. This change will only affect new accounts registered after the change. 

Doesn't help that you've used the wrong shell density since you've taken it to be a basic tungsten alloy instead of W-Ni-Fe (18600g/cm^2 instead of 17500).

You've removed the ability to contest shell penetration values since historical documents are apparently now irrelevant and as such the L23A1 shot is now incapable of penetrating the very tanks it was designed to kill (T64B/T72A).

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4 hours ago, Stona said:

Long story short: Due to changes provided with latest calculation system, guns used in removed vehicles were too obsolete to provide any real firepower (old, pre-WW2 guns). In the future we will implement new low level vehicle.

Hi Stona, if I were able to supply you with accurate penetration data for these vehicles would you re-consider your decision? Upon examination I do not believe the current penetration statistics for the SA 18 cannon with the new system are correct given what data we already have. There is also new information concerning the fact that the SA 18 had an APDS round which was tested and procured by the French military.

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What about APCR rounds, weren't you going to apply new formula to them too?

Also, after this change, lot's of tanks (at least american ones) have their APCBC rounds much BETTER than AP in literally every aspect. This just makes AP absolutely useless for them.

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48 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

Please read the dev blog to understand how shells are now calculated and which shells this affects

That dev blog specifically states:

 

Quote

the old armour penetration system will be preserved. These shells represent an insignificant portion of the shells available in game.

 

Surely, if a shell has documented penetration values - which one would assume applies to most of the shells in game - it should be keeping those documented penetration values instead of the theoretical penetration values that came with the calculator you provided. So changes as widespread as they are should have been unnecessary, and only shells with little in the way of documented performance should have been changed.

 

As a consequence, the only conclusion one can draw is that these changes seem to have been rather poorly throught out and implemented, all things considered.

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In my opinion and i think other would agree that it would be better to undo these changes and go back to what it was. Maybe tweak this and introduce it later in the future or never introduce it again but most don't like this and some even threatening to leave the game. I would say for the sake of this game which i do like even with the issues of this game please undo these changes.

Edited by Fireraid233
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so if i am following this correctly you have changed from historical sources what are sometimes wrong to a system what will be always wrong? why??

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