WolFie90

USA 8.0 - 10.0 is not OP by far

Even though all american fan boys want to say that their beloved  M1 Abrams are suffering or not so good than they should be or they need "muh" M833 shot.  Still in my mind USA is OP when comparing their line ups to other nations:

 

- USA has two identical M1 Abrams and one p2w under tiered mini Abrams.

- Their tanks have the best surviability.

- Maps and game mode prefer them.

- CAS is insane, american helicopters have good armament choices + Fj 4B and F-100D with one shot (dont remember their name) missiles.

- USA in never alone they always have at least 1 or 2 ally in same team with them.

 

After trying 8 battles in 10.0 and losing them all I would say that USA is doing just fine, so here I am waiting some change into 10.0. But looks like that it wont come so I can only say that stay away from battles. 

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2 hours ago, Guinespsj said:

USA in never alone they always have at least 1 or 2 ally in same team with them.

So, what you say is, matchmaker balanced your, so called OP nation, with 1 or more weaker nations ?????

 

 

2 hours ago, Guinespsj said:

Maps and game mode prefer them

I don't even try to get this one. There's variety of maps with different layouts.

 

 

2 hours ago, Guinespsj said:

Their tanks have the best surviability

One can argue!
Your T80 survives a lot more 1vs1 abrams
 

 

2 hours ago, Guinespsj said:

CAS is insane, american helicopters have good armament choices + Fj 4B and F-100D with one shot (dont remember their name) missiles.

Have you spawned your spaa? Do please try and come back with results.
 

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23 minutes ago, WolFie90 said:

So, what you say is, matchmaker balanced your, so called OP nation, with 1 or more weaker nations ?????

 

One or more weaker nation, such as: USSR, Japany, France and UK? Those nations are allowed to join with USA so Abrams always has good support tanks (T-80B, Type 90, Challengers, T-64B...)

 

27 minutes ago, WolFie90 said:

I don't even try to get this one. There's variety of maps with different layouts.

 

What I tried to say is this: Most of the maps are tiny urban boxes which only prefer fast paced game play so all tanks which dont have enough armor or good surviability are always disadvantaged, because they cant do that role which they were designed to do, such as Challengers or Leopards. And battle is mostly over when enemy team has captured 2 of the 3 zones (because then those players who have capped zone have enough SP to take their helicopter or attacker) once again fast tanks with good surviability can take the upper hand very fast, like USA is doing right now.

 

Yes I know that there are some good maps like Maginot line or Fulda but these maps are very very rare. I only get those small urban boxes, such as: Poland, Advance to the Rhein etc etc....

 

35 minutes ago, WolFie90 said:

One can argue!
Your T80 survives a lot more 1vs1 abrams

 

Still I have seen full T-80B team getting wiped out in couple of minutes. And can T-80B survive well aimed APFSDS round? Usually no because it has only 3 crew members and ammo carousel without blew up panels. When killing Abrams you need at least 2 APFSDS rounds, in my experience. That 1 vs 1 situation depends very much which kind map or situation is going on if T-80B is hull down its harder to kill but if its in open its easier to kill. 

 

37 minutes ago, WolFie90 said:

Have you spawned your spaa? Do please try and come back with results.

 

I have spawned in my SPAA and I have seen enemy helicopter hovering 5 km away slinking ATGMs when my SPAAGs ammo is self destructing in 2,5 km - 3 km away. There are the results. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Guinespsj said:

One or more weaker nation, such as: USSR, Japany, France and UK? Those nations are allowed to join with USA so Abrams always has good support tanks (T-80B, Type 90, Challengers, T-64B...)

USSR will crush all other nations you listed. It is second best nation with 3 good MBT (T-80, T-64B, T-72) and 16-missiles Mi-35M. It generally beats US team on larger maps like Kursk and Eastern Europe (with 2-3 British or German tanks as allies on each side).

 

Type-90 is IMO the best tank along with Abrams, with best APFSDS in the game and fast reload. But Japan has no backup. AMX-40 and Challenger are worse than the Soviet 9.7+ due to lack of armor. They are ok support tanks, but few people use it correctly (Abrams usually drive too fast and you can't cover it within range).

Italy simply has no top tier tank.

 

Quote

Yes I know that there are some good maps like Maginot line or Fulda but these maps are very very rare. I only get those small urban boxes, such as: Poland, Advance to the Rhein etc etc....

Maybe it is a time zone thing, but we only get Rhine/Cologne map occasionally and all other are huge maps.

 

Quote

Still I have seen full T-80B team getting wiped out in couple of minutes. And can T-80B survive well aimed APFSDS round? Usually no because it has only 3 crew members and ammo carousel without blew up panels. When killing Abrams you need at least 2 APFSDS rounds, in my experience. That 1 vs 1 situation depends very much which kind map or situation is going on if T-80B is hull down its harder to kill but if its in open its easier to kill. 

But hull-down T-80 isn't just harder to kill; it is virtually impossible to kill with 105mm sabot, the best you can do is break its breech (smallest weakspot among tier 6 tanks) and force it repair.

Leo 2 and CR1 can kill the T-80 with well aimed HEAT or HESH on cupola/optics, but it is basically gambling.

 

On E.Europe map 1-3 Abrams always get killed by T-80 in first 60 seconds. I am not sure how but I assume it is well aimed HE-FRAG.

 

Quote

I have spawned in my SPAA and I have seen enemy helicopter hovering 5 km away slinking ATGMs when my SPAAGs ammo is self destructing in 2,5 km - 3 km away. There are the results. 

SPAAG cannot hit helo from ATGM range. None can. A fighter can however do it easily.

You can try to range-find and shoot it with sabot or missile. I have free L23 on CR1 and have shot down quite a few helicopters with sabot.

Edited by Loongsheep
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23 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

USSR will crush all other nations you listed. It is second best nation with 3 good MBT (T-80, T-64B, T-72) and 16-missiles Mi-35M. It generally beats US team on larger maps like Kursk and Eastern Europe (with 2-3 British or German tanks as allies on each side).

 

 

Guinespsj was pointing out that other nations top tiers fill in for the Abrams' shortfalls, Type 90 is the perfect support vehicle for US as its fast enough to keep up, will yeet anything frontally barring the weird ricochets/black hole ERA and can snipe anything out to range except a hull down CR1 (JM12A1 occasionally pens), not that it matters since it won't face a CR1 when teamed with US.

 

Challengers can hold ground better than an Abrams as long as they're hull down, fairly lackluster everywhere else and the line up sucks, but that might change with tea Helicopters, and if Gaijoob adds aircraft like the Scimitar F.1 and Buccaneer; UK gets AGM-12 Bullpups to throw around too. Getting ahead of myself

23 minutes ago, Loongsheep said:

On E.Europe map 1-3 Abrams always get killed by T-80 in first 60 seconds. I am not sure how but I assume it is well aimed HE-FRAG.

 

Probably because the map sucks and spawn to spawn shooting is a thing in the first minute, and an Abrams won't out snipe a T-64B/T-80 at range without a bit of luck

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On 10/02/2019 at 08:17, WolFie90 said:

The topic is not, what can you use from reserve tanks to put in use in top tier game.
Completely not trolling btw.

I never asked for buff in my post!

I just want to state, that usa tree is not as OP as ppl claim it to be.

half the people complaining about the U.S tech tree dont even have 10.0 vehicles, the other half are whiny kids.

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29 minutes ago, sartt said:

half the people complaining about the U.S tech tree dont even have 10.0 vehicles, the other half are whiny kids.

Seems like so!

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4 minutes ago, *RAazzy91 said:

Guinespsj was pointing out that other nations top tiers fill in for the Abrams' shortfalls, Type 90 is the perfect support vehicle for US as its fast enough to keep up, will yeet anything frontally barring the weird ricochets/black hole ERA and can snipe anything out to range except a hull down CR1 (JM12A1 occasionally pens), not that it matters since it won't face a CR1 when teamed with US.

In Challengers I always fight against Type 90. They are rarely on my team.

And they cover the slower T-80/T-64 even better. They LOLpen and kill you when you try to take down the breech of Soviet tanks that you cannot pen elsewhere.

 

4 minutes ago, *RAazzy91 said:

Challengers can hold ground better than an Abrams as long as they're hull down, fairly lackluster everywhere else and the line up sucks, but that might change with tea Helicopters, and if Gaijoob adds aircraft like the Scimitar F.1 and Buccaneer; UK gets AGM-12 Bullpups to throw around too. Getting ahead of myself

As long as the mantlet remains the same, not really. Challenger has a large and extremely damage-prone mantlet which every hit will give it 30+ seconds repair plus 1 dead crew. If it gets L26, maybe it will be slightly better but meanwhile they can't hold much with that miserable reload.

 

I would like to fly a Lynx, even if it only carries 8 TOW, it is very agile and the fastest helicopter of its time. Top helo will likely be the WAH-64.

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17 hours ago, Loongsheep said:

From my experience it is far easier to kill a Leopard 2A4 than a T-80 or T-64B. Note that I know the weakness of my Challenger so I only attack when enemy is looking other way/just fired.

 

For Leo2 just one or two free L23 to the mantlet or hull and it is done. First shot wipes out gunner + some other crew and second shot finish off the rest, I do not aim for ammo anymore as crew dies 100% if hit.

Against T-80... I will try to load L23A1 and shoot UFP if I have the chance. If not, first L23 will hits its gun breech (usually won't kill crew) and the second to its LFP. Then I would have a L23A1 to finish it off. It is possible to OHK by shooting very low on LFP, but it is unreliable and I usually play safe and kill the gun first.

The T series is better at range for survivability but at medium to close they start having issues. The driver hatch is dead center of the T series and takes up a noticeable amount of space on the front. Once penetrated it will blow up more times than not, there is no second chance for you. Leo you still get a chance to live if penetrated, You also can't escape as easily in bad situations in the T series compared to the Leo 2A4. 

 

When I shoot the 2A4's gun mantlet my rounds do sometimes gets absorbed either by the optics or the bun breach. For the T series I either shoot dead center or try to flank just so that I can get a target on its side, even if a little because my round will go through the side regardless of angle. 

 

The one area that the Leo suffers from is the lack of post pen damage of its round that can become a real issue when your first round is critical in such CQC scenarios, an area where the T series is better at. But the Leo still has much better gun handling that allows you to get your gun on target much faster so its a tie I suppose.

 

Only at range does the T series(and Challenger) can become difficult to kill. The Leo is just better at surviving penetrations due to the storage rack and the spaced out crew. Unlike the T series which has to rely exclusively on its armor and just explodes one penetrated. Again the 2A4 has a chance to survive a hit and escape, the T series on the other hand does not.

Quote

 

But against ATGM/HEAT Leopard 2 seems to survive better though. T-80 always pop after a helo missile hits.

You're dead regardless of what tank you drive in my experience once hit, the only question is how many Helio ATGM's will it take. 

Edited by FallenZulu
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idk How America is at top tier now with its Pathetic 360 Pen rounds. I don't think I'm going to touch america for a while.

On 10/02/2019 at 08:57, WolFie90 said:

Happalula
With your 9k battles, i am pretty sure, you don't have all trees grinded to the top.


Let's hear some other opinions now for a while

6.7k Battles
image.png.befea0fc6a200a581d61c19c3ee6da

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12 hours ago, Guinespsj said:

Even though all american fan boys want to say that their beloved  M1 Abrams are suffering or not so good than they should be or they need "muh" M833 shot.  Still in my mind USA is OP when comparing their line ups to other nations:

 

- USA has two identical M1 Abrams and one p2w under tiered mini Abrams.

And UK has two identical Challengers. Russia has two identical tanks too (save speed). Germany has two Leopards that both share speed and firepower but have different armor. And the XM1 isn't that strong in the face of 10.0 tanks.

 

12 hours ago, Guinespsj said:

- Their tanks have the best surviability.

Non-argument. "Survivability" didn't even become a thing until the Abrams was introduced. It is a feature that is easily negated by good aiming and is not reliable in the slightest to purposefully use as a tool.

 

12 hours ago, Guinespsj said:

- Maps and game mode prefer them.

Subjective and anecdotal.

 

12 hours ago, Guinespsj said:

- CAS is insane, american helicopters have good armament choices + Fj 4B and F-100D with one shot (dont remember their name) missiles.

Valid. But other countries also have strong CAS like USSR and Germany.

 

12 hours ago, Guinespsj said:

- USA in never alone they always have at least 1 or 2 ally in same team with them.

Objectively false.

 

Implying that every team they fight is alone? Most top tier battles are US vs. The World right now. Try playing a few and see for yourself. You'd be lucky to see one or two Brits on your team at most. If you ever get Russians on your team in top tier you better buy a lottery ticket.

 

12 hours ago, Guinespsj said:

After trying 8 battles in 10.0 and losing them all I would say that USA is doing just fine, so here I am waiting some change into 10.0. But looks like that it wont come so I can only say that stay away from battles. 

The "change" you are asking for sounds like a blanket nerf. That is never going to happen, so get used to it. 

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2 hours ago, FallenZulu said:

You're dead regardless of what tank you drive in my experience once hit, the only question is how many Helio ATGM's will it take. 

It depends. It you are near a town or woods, you can drive into cover before the next missile hits, assuming your ammo rack and engine/transmission are fine.

 

I have only been killed by ATGM in Challenger under 10 times, perhaps my experience from old Battlefield series (starting from BF2 to BF4 with helo...) helps.

 

1 hour ago, ANDROMADA said:

Non-argument. "Survivability" didn't even become a thing until the Abrams was introduced. It is a feature that is easily negated by good aiming and is not reliable in the slightest to purposefully use as a tool.

Not quite. The "survivability" was important in the early days of WTGF, even before the APHE buff. Big tanks like SMK was blessed by large internal space to stay alive very long.

 

And over much of the WT history, German AA vehicles, M18 Hellcat, Flakbus, Obj.906... all used survivability to stay very competitive. Gaijin had to make hullbreak and stuff in order to balance.

 

On my first games in Chally I had to fight M1 once in stock APDS... it was so painful as it lacked spalling.

 

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2 hours ago, ANDROMADA said:

The "change" you are asking for sounds like a blanket nerf. That is never going to happen, so get used to it.

 

How dump claim that I would want some blanket nerf (sigh) no I do not want any blanket nerf, most dumbest issue in this game are blanket nerfs. So I repeat once again I DO NOT WANT BLANKET NERF, I dont even know where you managed to get that kind idea?

 

Changes which I am waiting are something like this:

 

- Better maps.

- Better game mode.

- Economy fix.

- All nations can team up with each others.

- All nations have proper CAS.

- Counter for heli spam.

- Jet fighter SP cost is reduced.

- All nations must have similar amount of tanks in their line up.

- Some of the APFSDS rounds need buff in post penetration damage.

 

 

I can say that I am little bit salty about that state where UK, Japany and France are right in their top tier tech, these nations were added so people could play with them. And which kind of state they are right now? 

 

- Challengers do not fit in recent game meta.

- Japany and France do not have enough competitive vehicles in 10.0 (but MuH Jm33 RouND iS Op). After Type 90 or AMX 40 is dead what vehicle is competitive against M1 Abrams twins, T-64B, T-72? Type 74 or AMX-30 Brenus?

- These nations dont have helicopters or good attackers for CAS.

 

So yeah, I am waiting blanket nerf?

 

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4 hours ago, ANDROMADA said:

 Germany has two Leopards that both share speed and firepower but have different armor.

Inaccurate statement.

Leo2k has better mobility and worse firepower (lack of DM23 longer reload). 

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5 hours ago, _Amatsukaze said:

idk How America is at top tier now with its Pathetic 360 Pen rounds.

 

Except, nothing has changed.

T-64B's, T-80B's and T-72A's drivers hatches, lower glacis, mantlet and side armour are all just as easily penetrated as they were before the changes.

 

All of the weakspots you were aiming for previously are still viable, the M1's reload rate, survivability and mobility advantages also remain as they were.

 

Quote

I don't think I'm going to touch america for a while.

 

That's fine, just keep in mind you're avoiding the nation that's currently performing the best overal.

 

35 minutes ago, Steelbeast said:

Leo2k has better mobility and worse firepower (lack of DM23 longer reload). 

 

After the changes, DM23 just isn't worth it any longer, it now fails to penetrate the M1IP's turret cheeks even at point blank range and the worse damage modifier remains.

This is just keeping with the trend of having the Leopard 2A4 be a discount M1IP, which is a shame.

 

Edited by Necrons31467
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it's true, while Gaijin screwed all western MBTs with the new changes (what a surprise!) for the Abrams haven't changed too much.

Really screwed is the 2a4 with DM23. This ammo is useless now whjile soviet ammo remained basically untouched.

 

Russian bias not existant? Well I highly doubt that. With the recent changes Gaijin basically showed their face

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55 minutes ago, Rainbowprincess said:

Russian bias not existant? Well I highly doubt that. With the recent changes Gaijin basically showed their face

 

Come on... really?

 

French got buffs for their APFSDS,  why aren't you also making the case for French bias in this case?

 

It's especially dubious considering how the US have been dominating for months upon months.

 

 

 

But who knows, maybe Patch 1.87 will finally change things around, I'd personally bet on more imbalance than actual balance, but maybe it will atleast switch over to aanother nation for a change.

 

 

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because the french literally are no threat at top tier with the poor lineup they have

 

58 minutes ago, Necrons31467 said:

It's especially dubious considering how the US have been dominating for months upon months.

and? I was no friend of the US dominance aswell. But that's no reason to change it with another unrealistic stupid method by using wrong and false parameters for nato long rod ammo while not touching soviets.

I mean for the Abrams nothing too much will change. It has to aim for the same weakspots anyway apart from the fact that with the reduced vertical penetration, it might bounce off more.

But the nerf to the 2a4 is just awkward. DM23 doesn't even go through the abrams turret cheek anymore.

 

Gaijins way of developing and balancing this game is getting more and more ludicrous. Conceptional formulas to throw all kind of different ammos over to homogize them, using wrong values on purpose while the correct ones were reported over and over. and and and..

 

They didn't even look through their changes carefully enough so they had to delete entire vehicles from the techtree because the changes rendered them useless. Or in one case the penetration value for the shell was lower than its fuse sensitivity... and you want to tell me that a developer who is producing such nonsense is capable of balancing and developing a sophisticated matter like modern MBTs and their ammunation? What a joke

 

Or have you even looked at chally's L23A1? 396mm flat pen and 228mm @60°. that's hilarious

Edited by Rainbowprincess
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1 hour ago, Rainbowprincess said:

because the french literally are no threat at top tier with the poor lineup they have

 

Just like the Soviets haven't been a true threat to the US over the past 6 or so months either.

 

No nation has been an actual threat, perhaps if matchmaking did a better job at combining the different nations to face off against the US specifically it would've worked better, but right now we're stuck with matchmaking that somehow allows the Type 90's to support the US M1's in what is the golden combination for 50% of the time.

 

This really should never have been allowed to happen, especially not when the Leopard 2's, T-64's and T-80's could really use for Type 90 back-up.

 

Quote

and? I was no friend of the US dominance aswell. But that's no reason to change it with another unrealistic stupid method by using wrong and false parameters for nato long rod ammo while not touching soviets.

 

The Soviets aren't touched because they only adjusted monobloc penetrators.

 

Soviets don't use monoblocs, and Lanz Odermatt doesn't support Tungsten cored penetrator designs in it's calculations.

 

Quote

But the nerf to the 2a4 is just awkward. DM23 doesn't even go through the abrams turret cheek anymore.

 

I agree, it's ridiculous from a bvalancing perspective.

 

Quote

Or have you even looked at chally's L23A1? 396mm flat pen and 228mm @60°. that's hilarious

 

Even though they just had it properly modelled...

 

Edited by Necrons31467
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45 minutes ago, Necrons31467 said:

Even though they just had it properly modelled...

By using the wrong density for the core and despite actual document exists about its performance?

 

 

l23 apfsds.jpg

Edited by Loongsheep
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1 hour ago, Necrons31467 said:

The Soviets aren't touched because they only adjusted monobloc penetrators.

 

Soviets don't use monoblocs, and Lanz Odermatt doesn't support Tungsten cored penetrator designs in it's calculations.

oh hello. Soviets don't use monobloc penetrators so lets not touch it while NATO ammunition can get nerfed by some weird formula that isn't even used properly by adding wrong variables such as density for example.

Or even better for the chally where there are real documents listing the real performance. But hey, lets ignore it and just smack a theoretical formula over everything because xxxx it, it just hurts nato MBTs anyway.

I use this term NATO so often in a way to defend its military despite not even being a fan of this alliance (in a political view) xd

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14 minutes ago, Rainbowprincess said:

oh hello. Soviets don't use monobloc penetrators so lets not touch it

 

I don't get what you're trying to say here.

 

Odermatt doesn't include non-Monobloc penetrators.... so would rather that Gaijin had just used it anyways? even if it might've led to some ridiculous values?

Or

Stick to documentation on the performance.... except, that's exactly what they did.

 

14 minutes ago, Rainbowprincess said:

while NATO ammunition can get nerfed by some weird formula that isn't even used properly by adding wrong variables such as density for example.

 

Hey, I'm not defending the switch to using Odermatt as a standard.

 

14 minutes ago, Rainbowprincess said:

Or even better for the chally where there are real documents listing the real performance. But hey, lets ignore it and just smack a theoretical formula over everything because xxxx it, it just hurts nato MBTs anyway.

 

Again, not defending it.

 

However, that doesn't mean that we should resort to Russian Bias memes being thrown about, if Gaijin were indeed biased towards the Russians at top-tiers, they've got to be the most incompetent developers ever at translating that into the game.

Honestly, is reducing some flat pen here and there whilst slightly buffing some angled pen really the most effective way of suddenly turning 38% winrate Soviets to 65% winrate Soviets?

 

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23 minutes ago, Necrons31467 said:

Odermatt doesn't include non-Monobloc penetrators.... so would rather that Gaijin had just used it anyways? even if it might've led to some ridiculous values?

Or

Stick to documentation on the performance.... except, that's exactly what they did.

what? where did they stick to official documents

especially with the density. They just assume it is 17500kg/m³ whereas tungsten alloys can go up to 18700kg/m³. And you can be sure that nato APFSDS is not the cheap tungsten alloy, especially when it keeps up with US DU ammunition.

And why does dm23 and dm33 in gaijins world only 1640m/s while it is stated everywhere else that they do 1650m/s?

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTdPVAFQuSz5Z_u5X_bcjxzab4oLT35oJDj0j-YjkspYRzIR8j49QJzeFsksjG1IgCoz6iYvYm5xhj-/pubhtml?gid=2087102741&single=true

Edited by Rainbowprincess
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19 minutes ago, Rainbowprincess said:

what? where did they stick to official documents

especially with the density. They just assume it is 17500kg/m³ whereas tungsten alloys can go up to 18700kg/m³. And you can be sure that nato APFSDS is not the cheap tungsten alloy, especially when it keeps up with US DU ammunition.

And why does dm23 and dm33 in gaijins world only 1640m/s while it is stated everywhere else that they do 1650m/s?

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTdPVAFQuSz5Z_u5X_bcjxzab4oLT35oJDj0j-YjkspYRzIR8j49QJzeFsksjG1IgCoz6iYvYm5xhj-/pubhtml?gid=2087102741&single=true

I believe he's referring to the Soviets using the known values/official documents, not in using those values in Lanz-Odermatt for NATO rounds.

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24 minutes ago, Rainbowprincess said:

what? where did they stick to official documents

 

As CheshireCat pointed out, I am referring to Soviet designs.

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