Chuck_RCAF

Spitfires oil overheating

This testing made me fly spits a lot recently and I fell in love with them.

The more I read about spits and the more I fly them, the more I think they are the best modelled FMs in game. I fly them at 100% sensitivity and the control and response you get from that airplane is simply amazing.

 

2 days ago I ended EC2 flying Mk.Ia and Mk.V with 13kills and 1 death.

I had epic 1vs3 fight in Mk.1 at 2km alt against 109E4, 190A1 and G.50 which ended in smoking 190, damaged 109 and I made it back to base in one piece. 

I flew in damaged Mk.1 30km back to base evading 109E4 diving attacks 8-10 times after which the guy lost patience and energy and I sprayed him  with leftover 300 rounds of MG ammo before I landed back at base.

 

And landings in spits are so beautiful 3-point touch downs, it is almost like the plane lands on its own.

I seriously think they are joy to fly, stable, responsive and high sensitivity gives you a lot more control than in other planes.

 

In reality the spitfire was easy to stall, however the wing root was stalling before wingtips creating heavy buffeting which gave pilot plenty of warning to ease on the stick. Some BoB reports of 109 being able to stay on spit 6 in turn could be due to inexperienced pilots not willing to push spit to its limits, being affraid of violent stall. In game this buffeting is not that prominent but that I cover using stall warning app which plays buffeting sound.

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Yeah I use one of three settings:

- 100% throttle 74% prop pitch (2600 rpm) for cruise and easy climbing

-100% throttle and 88% prop pitch (2800rpm) in combat and quicker climbing

- WEP with 3000rpm only in emergency and only for short while

 

For Sicily I reduce all above rpm by 1000-2000.

When out of battle I reduce RPM to 2400 and rads open for cooling engine.

 

That's all Mk.1- when you get used to it and then move to Mk.II and V you will notice that you can fly with 2800rpm more often and you appreciate higher limits you can push them to.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Sputnik_77 said:

This testing made me fly spits a lot recently and I fell in love with them.

The more I read about spits and the more I fly them, the more I think they are the best modelled FMs in game. I fly them at 100% sensitivity and the control and response you get from that airplane is simply amazing.

 

2 days ago I ended EC2 flying Mk.Ia and Mk.V with 13kills and 1 death.

I had epic 1vs3 fight in Mk.1 at 2km alt against 109E4, 190A1 and G.50 which ended in smoking 190, damaged 109 and I made it back to base in one piece. 

I flew in damaged Mk.1 30km back to base evading 109E4 diving attacks 8-10 times after which the guy lost patience and energy and I sprayed him  with leftover 300 rounds of MG ammo before I landed back at base.

 

And landings in spits are so beautiful 3-point touch downs, it is almost like the plane lands on its own.

I seriously think they are joy to fly, stable, responsive and high sensitivity gives you a lot more control than in other planes.

 

In reality the spitfire was easy to stall, however the wing root was stalling before wingtips creating heavy buffeting which gave pilot plenty of warning to ease on the stick. Some BoB reports of 109 being able to stay on spit 6 in turn could be due to inexperienced pilots not willing to push spit to its limits, being affraid of violent stall. In game this buffeting is not that prominent but that I cover using stall warning app which plays buffeting sound.

The Spitfire in WT is quite fun if you are not ham-fisted with it. I am very happy WT did not dumb it down.

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7 hours ago, nazradu2 said:

Wanted to test the mec results from this thread myself yesterday in battle surrounding and flew EC2 Sicily. After the first short game I had a similar opinion to what you wrote about your friend. Then I digged a little in old threads about spit elevator. Did read an advice from IFF about multiplier and set pitch multiplier to 0.75. Not perfect, but a good point to start fine tuning. Made a short second game of 30 or 40 minutes and landed at 4 kills 0 deaths, two from Mk Ia and two from MkIIb and had not the feeling of beeing in trouble. For the next time I will also raise the multiplier of roll, cause I reach the end of the stick very often. After the second game I was more anoyed by the workload that mec gives me in that plane and with Oculus on I don't want to check localhost and all I did was trying to keep boost high and temp low. 

 

If I were going to fly the Spit a lot, I would play around with the multipliers, but I'm not so I won't. The recommendations here for mec to just keep throttle open and manipulate pitch work great for addressing the overheat issues with minimum workload, so when I do take it I just use it in the vertical and that makes it fun enough to take it for the occasional spin. It does require far more of my stick time for me to get as comfortable with it as I am with a Hurricane. Not sure why it seems to behave differently than other sims in terms of spin characteristics or why Sputnik's find of different HP outputs for the same engine in two different aircraft exist, but it appears from your response and others in this thread that stick time is sufficient as a remedy.

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19 hours ago, Sputnik_77 said:

This testing made me fly spits a lot recently and I fell in love with them.

The more I read about spits and the more I fly them, the more I think they are the best modelled FMs in game. I fly them at 100% sensitivity and the control and response you get from that airplane is simply amazing. 

hopefully over time more and more people will realise that as well.

aside from engine modelling and slightly too strong tendency to yaw while pitching spit is very good plane.

It's a pilot's dream thanks to responsiveness you mention - you don't turn spit -you just tell her where to go and she goes. then you just simply tell her where to stop
 

Edited by przybysz86
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19 hours ago, Sputnik_77 said:

Yeah I use one of three settings:

- 100% throttle 74% prop pitch (2600 rpm) for cruise and easy climbing

-100% throttle and 88% prop pitch (2800rpm) in combat and quicker climbing

- WEP with 3000rpm only in emergency and only for short while

 

For Sicily I reduce all above rpm by 1000-2000.

When out of battle I reduce RPM to 2400 and rads open for cooling engine.

 

That's all Mk.1- when you get used to it and then move to Mk.II and V you will notice that you can fly with 2800rpm more often and you appreciate higher limits you can push them to.

 

 

for low alt cruise - if you expect longer sortie use RPM as low as 50% or less (keep throttle at 100%) - that way you will keep engine even cooler while still being able to do best part of 280mph with rads fully closed.

That way you sacrifice only little speed but you get much more in terms of "thermal buffer" later when it comes to fight.
Normally it makes no difference but if you are in extremely long sortie (30mins+) you will experience overheating if you stick to Sputnik's recommendation. But otherwise I use very similar inputs as he stated and they indeed work fine

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Ok, we know how to handle the spit, but when I look at this info from @przybysz86

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and the fact that ingame 84°C on oil temp gives a yellow indication I think there are wrong temp limits set. I took a look into dev blog for thermodynamics. With 88°C you are already orange.

 

Now the remaining time of operation is shown by the colour of the temperature indicator: white indicates that the engine is operating normally, yellow signifies 5 to 10 minutes, orange 2 to 5 minutes, red – less than 2 minutes and flashing red is a warning that there is less than 1 minute remaining.

 

5 to 10 minutes at 84°C seems a little to bad.

 

Btw. for those who might have extreme problems cooling down the engine. Cutting it off will lower oil temp like 1°C per second or even faster. Just in case you need it very fast.

Edited by nazradu2
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2 hours ago, nazradu2 said:

and the fact that ingame 84°C on oil temp gives a yellow indication I think there are wrong temp limits set. I took a look into dev blog for thermodynamics. With 88°C you are already orange.

We have been through all this already in a different topic.

It depends on the altitude. All checks/documents point out that values are correct at c.a. 12500-13000 f (up to 4km).

At that altitude oil at 90 degrees is still white (or at least it was when i tested it for a last time).

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2 hours ago, Amyel said:

We have been through all this already in a different topic.

It depends on the altitude. All checks/documents point out that values are correct at c.a. 12500-13000 f (up to 4km).

At that altitude oil at 90 degrees is still white (or at least it was when i tested it for a last time).

Nope. Getting to 5km only gives you a bit of more possible rpm but 84,5°C is the limit for white.

Made a white climb here to 4,5km, so engine is "undamaged" and then raised from 2600 to 2800 rpm. Not even one minute and it goes yellow at 84°C. 3 minutes later you hit 87°C and see orange. And according to dev blog, every color but white means your engine will die in x minutes. Staying in color means lowering the temp limit and you will end up with red at 82°C over time. 

1302801558_shot2019_02_1813_24_37.thumb.

 

This is test map so it is rather cold with like 15°C on the ground.

 

Edit: This sign in Mk Ia cockpit claims I should be able to climb 1 hour at 2850rpm :D

1014872544_shot2019_02_1815_08_19.thumb.

Edited by nazradu2
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3 hours ago, nazradu2 said:

This sign in Mk Ia cockpit claims I should be able to climb 1 hour at 2850rpm

Maybe in WT it is 1hour total during whole engine life before next major refurb :D:facepalm:

Edited by Sputnik_77

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1 picture - full throttle (no wep) oil 87 degrees - white. 2850 rpm.

2 picture - WEP - oil 92 degrees bright yellow - it goes to dark yellow at 93.5.

I was able to wep down from 5.5km. didn't change rpm (3000) -  probably could get even more speed

 

I think speed is significant factor here. if you try to wep at low speeds engine will cook almost instantly.

Also altitude.

 

On a funny note - power at boost 7:image.png.242ee3ec89f883f89213435cd8dd23

 

 

7 hours ago, nazradu2 said:

Staying in color means lowering the temp limit and you will end up with red at 82°C over time

Doesn't matter if you got to colour or not. Even if you will stay in white all the time after some time you will degradation for every plane (at least that's how it works for my 190 a-1)

shot 2019.02.18 19.46.41.jpg

shot 2019.02.18 19.53.07.jpg

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12 hours ago, nazradu2 said:

ingame 84°C on oil temp gives a yellow indication I think there are wrong temp limits set. I took a look into dev blog for thermodynamics. With 88°C you are already orange.

yes - temp limits are celarly incorrect. Something I've tried to report as a bug for long time but every time I hear that "devs are aware"..

I guess since it's not making plane unplayable (assuming you stick with MEC and lowering RPM) devs really don't care about fixing it very much - or at least not anytime soon.

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On a side note. Just had Mk 1 and 2 in test flights and some realy short try outs, but today I took them for a full EC match on Sicily and now I think of them as some realy hot ladies. That kind that everybody is afraid to talk to cause they are so amazing. And they are and if you treat them right, they give you an awesome time, if you don't they scratch your car, kill your dog and burn your house down while you are inside. 

Had to change my habits completely probably to the better. Never flown a plane in wt that requires that mutch work with the rudder. Usualy I used to bank and yank but I learned quickly, that this is killing you fast in Spits. I absolutely enjoyed that and I wonder why nearly all the other planes are so easy even without the habit to fly them coordinated. Now I am sad that I canceled the crosswind pedals 2 years ago :(

Edited by nazradu2
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20 minutes ago, nazradu2 said:

Had to change my habits completely probably to the better. Never flown a plane in wt that requires that mutch work with the rudder. Usualy I used to bank and yank but I learned quickly, that this is killing you fast in Spits. I absolutely enjoyed that and I wonder why nearly all the other planes are so easy even without the habit to fly them coordinated....

“It is advisable to acquire the habit of flying without rudder control, as this is best when flying by instruments, especially when in difficulties in clouds.

 

“All normal flying should be done by aileron and elevator control, and it will reduce fatigue if feet are taken off the rudder pedals, as rudder control is only required in certain aerobatics and to assist rapid increase of bank if desired.

 

“It has already been mentioned that this aeroplane can best be flown without use of the rudder, as perfect co-ordination of controls is thereby achieved automatically without the pilot’s assistance.”

 

Three guesses which Pilots Notes those comments come from.

 

FM still FUBAR.

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8 hours ago, Kernow1346 said:

 

Three guesses which Pilots Notes those comments come from.

  

This is regarding normal flight.  Not combat.

 

In normal flight it's indeed easier to not use rudder but unlike most people think normal turn is 15deg bank angle at 1.1G not 90deg and 3-5G;)

 

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I knew someone would try to point that that, hence:

 

“as rudder control is only required in certain aerobatics and to assist rapid increase of bank if desired.” 

 

You really think that if rudder was required above, say a 20 degree banked turn, they wouldn’t have mentioned that, given the number of times “no rudder” is stressed? I very much doubt ‘normal’ in a Spitfire in 1940 was limited to 15* banked turns; modern example, but never-the-less illustrates the point - standard navigational turn in a Hawk is a 4G turn.

 

Anyway, last time I tried a WT Spit I didn’t need to get anywhere near a hard turn before needing considerable rudder. In one direction (left I think) you need bootfulls of into turn rudder and in the other direction you need similar bootfulls of opposite rudder. Something they obviously forgot to mention or thought irrelevant in 1940.

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1 minute ago, Kernow1346 said:

 

You really think that if rudder was required above, say a 20 degree banked turn

I will have to check when I get home but I think you can easily go way past 20deg (45?) into a coordinated turn with no rudder on spit.

 

I personally do not use rudder outside combat.


As for combat - I agree - it possible that current FM require too much rudder use in combat situation but it does not mean it's totally broken. It's no less broken than 109 not requiring nose-up trim for high speed pull-ups for nose down trim for high speed level flight.


Problem is that in WT people are used to flying ham-fisted. Most planes are fine even if you use stick as 2-positon switch - on/off - while spitfire need you to feel the plane.
And it's just like NACA test says - only small stick deflection is require to go from level flight into full stall (in WT that's roughly 20% stick travel).
You need you learn precision.
in normal plane when you move stick form 0% to 5% it does very little but in spitfire that can be as much as 25% of useful pitch input at certain speed.
So if best you can do is 5% movement imagine flying other plane by jerking stick 0%-20%-40%-... only

You will make any plane misbehave and stall and would have to rescue it with rudder to not fall into spin
 

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10 hours ago, Kernow1346 said:

“It is advisable to acquire the habit of flying without rudder control, as this is best when flying by instruments, especially when in difficulties in clouds.

 

“All normal flying should be done by aileron and elevator control, and it will reduce fatigue if feet are taken off the rudder pedals, as rudder control is only required in certain aerobatics and to assist rapid increase of bank if desired.

 

“It has already been mentioned that this aeroplane can best be flown without use of the rudder, as perfect co-ordination of controls is thereby achieved automatically without the pilot’s assistance.”

 

Three guesses which Pilots Notes those comments come from.

 

FM still FUBAR.

Well, if you read further in the manual

20190221_092020.thumb.png.f57a1fb92e5fa7

20190221_092127.thumb.png.4d33cff0f3014b

20190221_090842.thumb.png.f1e9f02a97bcc2

 

I am realy no expert and I realy can't judge if FM is accurate, but for characteristics it seems to get close to what I read in the manual.

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@nazradu2 additionally NACA test on spit mk V shows how sensitive plane was. It took very little input to stall plane and in WT terms this means that your full range of stick movement is sometimes as small as 0-20% so it;s very easy to input too much pitch. And if you abruptly input enough pitch, most planes will become unstable in one way or another and yawing while pitching is not uncommon. I can't recall scientific name for this but it's due to propeller wash and gyro effects.

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EDIT:
among others:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-factor

 

Since Spitfire was very light on controls (aka nor arrow-like super-stable) then possibly that effect was stronger

Edited by przybysz86
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That's the longitudinal stability, i.e the pitch, not the lateral stability. 

 

S9723 has filed a bug report for the lateral stability of the early spits regarding aileron usage (and I would assume rudder usage). 

 

Fm doesn't seem there yet, and as others have pointed out over modelled in comparison to some others. 

 

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7 hours ago, przybysz86 said:

@nazradu2 additionally NACA test on spit mk V shows how sensitive plane was. It took very little input to stall plane and in WT terms this means that your full range of stick movement is sometimes as small as 0-20% so it;s very easy to input too much pitch. And if you abruptly input enough pitch, most planes will become unstable in one way or another and yawing while pitching is not uncommon. I can't recall scientific name for this but it's due to propeller wash and gyro effects.

unknown.png?width=400&height=81

unknown.png

unknown.png


EDIT:
among others:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-factor

 

Since Spitfire was very light on controls (aka nor arrow-like super-stable) then possibly that effect was stronger

Gyroscopic precession is also a factor anytime you displace the plane of motion of the gyro stuck on the front of the aircraft.

 

On a clockwise spinning propeller (from the pilot's viewpoint), precession will cause left yaw during elevator down and right yaw during elevator up. Left rudder will cause pitch down and right rudder will cause pitch up.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPUuF_dECVI

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On 21/02/2019 at 08:36, nazradu2 said:

...

I am realy no expert and I realy can't judge if FM is accurate, but for characteristics it seems to get close to what I read in the manual.

Absolutely, nazradu, and that’s why I studiously avoided any mention of the stalling characteristics or pitching performance. While I suspect the FM is broken in this respect, it is based on some fact and perhaps the game engine can’t get any closer - and elements available to real pilots, like buffeting as inner wing stalled initially, are generally not available to online pilots.

 

I’m not at all saying you’re wrong in saying the Spit flies wonderfully if you can make the right adjustments and I’m impressed by anyone who makes the effort to learn how to. I am a little sceptical that it’s anything like a real Spitfire, given the amount of rudder required and what the PN says - but maybe I’ll give it another try. The degree of brokenness of the rudder can be debated and, as przy says, maybe other FMs are indeed more broken.

 

Regarding ham-fisted players - yes and no. Problem is the range of motion available to players, even with an extended stick, let alone the average table-top JS. But, perhaps even more than that it’s the force or feel is more important in RL than movement, yet movement is usually all the player can go by. (Of course some movement is necessary to the brain - remember the case of early F-16s with their totally fixed side-stick? Probably done just to show how ‘clever’ the designers were, but pilots didn’t like the total lack of movement and it was changed to be a little more conventional - hey, perhaps there was a reason everyone had done it that way before!?)

 

IIRC designers can assume a pilot can push/pull the stick with a force of 60N. Whatever, let’s say 60N.  Whatever range of motion is required (so long as there is some), your brain can quite accurately sense exactly what input you’re making - especially given a little experience. Problem is in translating that to the desk top. Let’s say at a given speed 60N is 50% max stick travel. If that is rigorously transferred to your JS:

 

a. You can potentially massively over-stress ac and pilot by applying >>50% stick (up to double the input a real pilot could make)

b. You have a tiny range of motion to match what for the RL pilot is a 100% range of ‘motion’ (strictly force)

 

I don’t know how sims in general or WT manage this. I suspect they opt for rigid matching of controller position to RL stick position, giving rise to problems a and b, above. It might be less realistic in a rigid sense, but, never-the-less be better simulation, if 100% JS deflection represented that 60N force, although that would mean control surface deflection varied with speed.  Too difficult to program?

 

Well, digressed somewhat from overheating, although I think we’ve agreed that is broken if flying by AP1564A breaks the engine.

If 

 

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15 minutes ago, Kernow1346 said:

Regarding ham-fisted players - yes and no. Problem is the range of motion available to players

yeah - spit have very unusual control yoke with pitch being on long column while roll with much shorter leaver

Even if plane was super-sensitive to elevator pilot had much longer leaver to input it that compensated a little
I think it would be much easier to fly spit with JS extension like some people install on their warthogs, etc

Edited by przybysz86
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39 minutes ago, przybysz86 said:

.....
I think it would be much easier to fly spit with JS extension like some people install on their warthogs, etc

Ha, maybe ‘easier’ but not easy! Trust me! After years of moderately decent JSs I went “all in” and got Warthog+ext a while ago. Great investment, but doesn’t solve current Spit for me, although it must help. If you’re getting it to work on a desk-top stick, well done.

 

Problem with toning down input in settings is that almost full deflection ought to be required when landing, as per Notes. IIRC full deflection was required on prototype, which was a criticism removed on production aircraft, although close to full deflection was still required (which was fine, as it left some room to play with). If you use less than 100% elevator, of course, you can’t get full control deflection.

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