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  1. 1. Would you like to see the Su-22M in the game?

    • Yeah, of course.
      144
    • Not yet, but yes.
      10
    • Nope.
      12


So I've been doing some research on what jets are possible for rank 6 aircraft, and it occurred to me that Germany doesn't have anything of their own to fill that early rank 6 spot, for obvious reasons. Now, after looking about for anything they could use besides a copy-pasted Mig-19 model, I ran across a jet that I didn't really know anything about, and that I thought would be pretty interesting; the Su-22, also known as the Su-17, NATO designation "Fitter-K". I also considered the F-104 operated by the West German air force, but I didn't feel like I really wanted that just yet. 

 

Image result for east german su-22

 

The Sukhoi Su-22 is a Soviet built single-seat, variable sweep wing supersonic fighter-bomber that entered service (in this case, with the East German air force) in 1983, though the air frame was in service with the soviets as far back as 1970. I couldn't find a huge difference between the different variants as it would apply to war thunder, but the flight statistics I could find were all in common with Wikipedia. So, here they are:

 

General characteristics

Crew: 1
Length: 19.02 m (62 ft 5 in)
Wingspan: 
With wings spread: 13.68 m (44 ft 11 in)
With wings swept: 10.02 m (32 ft 10 in)
Height: 5.12 m (16 ft 10 in)
Wing area: 
With wings spread: 38.5 m² (414 ft²)
With wings swept: 34.5 m² (370 ft²)
Empty weight: 12,160 kg (26,810 lb)
Loaded weight: 16,400 kg (36,155 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 19,430 kg (42,835 lb)
Fuel capacity: 3,770 kg (8,310 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × Lyulka AL-21F-3 afterburning turbojet
Dry thrust: 76.4 kN (17,185 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 109.8 kN (24,675 lbf)
 

Performance

Maximum speed: 
At sea level: Mach 1.13 (1,400 km/h; 870 mph)
At altitude: Mach 1.51 (1,860 km/h; 1,156 mph)

Combat range: 1,150 km (715 mi; 620 nmi) in hi-lo-hi attack with 2,000 kg (4,400 lb) warload
Ferry range: 2,300 km (1,430 mi; 1,240 nmi)
Service ceiling: 14,200 m (46,590 ft)
Rate of climb: 230 m/s (45,275 ft/min)
Wing loading: 443 kg/m² (90.77 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.68
Maximum g-load: 7 g

 

Now, initially, I was concerned about the sheer power of this aircraft with it's very powerful engines and top speed, along with that climb rate that outpaces even the Mig-19PT by a healthy margin. What i'm not sure about is if these stats are for a "clean" flight, or a full load. But then I realized that this jet is MASSIVE, with an empty weight that's almost double the loaded weight of the Mig-19PT we already have, and significantly heavier than the F-100D. The interesting part about this jet is that it was the first soviet designed variable sweep wing design. Like this:

 

Image result for Su-22 wing sweep

 

Now, onto the good parts:

 

Armament
Guns: 
2 × 30 mm Nudelman-Rikhter NR-30 autocannons (80 rounds per gun, 160 rounds total)
UPK-23 or SPPU-22 gun pods for 2 × Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23L autocannons
Hardpoints: 12 hardpoints with a capacity of up to 4,000 kg (8,800 lb) of stores and provisions to carry combinations of:
Missiles: 
Air-to-air missiles:
K-13
R-60
R-73
Air-to-surface missiles:
Kh-23 Grom
Kh-25ML
Kh-29L/T/D
Anti-radiation missiles:
Kh-58
Kh-27PS
Kh-28
Bombs: drop bombs, laser-guided bombs, electro-optical bombs, napalm bombs, drag chute bombs and cluster bombs
Air-to-surface rockets including the S-5 rocket, S-8 (rocket) & S-13 rocket systems.

 

Now, I'm aware that this thing can carry far more advanced armament than any other country currently has. The R-60 and R-73 in particular would be devastating in air RB without the inclusion of countermeasures, and I don't think that they should be added to jets just yet. As for air to surface missiles, the Kh-23 would be a very good counterpart to the AGM-12 Bullpup that we have in game. The Kh-25 and Kh-29 are likely too advanced for the game's current state, being much more modern like the AGM-65 Maverick family of missiles. Likewise, the Kh-27 is a variant of the Kh-25 designed for SEAD missions, having and anti-radiation role to deal with radar equipped SPAA and SAM sites. Seeing how the only logical progression for SPAA at this point in the game is to advance to things equipped with stingers (or equivalent), I don't see it as being a problem to include anti-radiation missiles. They're not good for hitting anything else, so I feel like if the devs made it so you could only carry anti-radiation OR standard air-to-surface missiles in ground RB, it wouldn't be game breaking. Carry the anti-radiation missiles, and you can only kill SPAA. Carry the standard missiles, and you're more vulnerable to SPAA, but can kill all types of ground targets. On top of this, it can carry a wide array of dumb bombs and rockets. On a personal note, I think it would be cool to be able to take napalm into the battle (provided it didn't kill the game engine).

 

The guns are already in game, being the same ones that are fitted on the Mig-19PT, but this thing has the ability to carry gun pods like on the IL-28 ish. All in all, I think this thing would be most effective in Ground RB, but would still be able to hold it's own in top tier Jet RB gameplay. It's fast, though I suspect it can't turn anywhere near as well as the Mig-19 or F-100 with their extreme AoA abilities, so, it would rely on that top speed to stay alive. The best counter to it would be the AIM-9 in such a case, forcing it to evade and burn energy, not unlike how current top tier jets are being played.

 

All in all, I think it would be a good fit in the German tech tree, if not now, then a little later when more jets have been added to fill out Rank 6. Thoughts?

 

Edit: Sources:

https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=192

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-17#Variants

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/su-17.htm

https://www.fighter-planes.com/info/su17.htm

https://cezet.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/23blot-4244.jpg

http://www.euro-t-guide.com/See_Photo/Germany/NW_Bremerhaven/Aeronauticum_Nordholz_2006_07.jpg

Edited by triggerhappySOB
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Open for discussion. :salute:

However, you are required to list all source material you used to create this post, as stated in the posting rules for suggestions. That being said, I'll leave this thread open for 48 hours in order for you to complete this post by adding the sources mentioned before. Failing to meet this request within the allocated time will result in this thread being closed and archived.

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I'd love to see the Su-22M4  added to the German tech-tree, when rank VI can support such tech (speed, acceleration and armament wise).

Also, a small note, the Su-22UM3K (Fitter G) was a trainer, which I don't know how Gaijin would handle, but just wanted to point that out, I am sure you already knew that, but it may be worth to state the differences between the Su-22M4 and Su-22UM3K  in the suggestion, since the M4 and UM3K are two different planes.

 

In any regard, you have my support for this very sleek looking plane. +1 :good:

Edited by Stuhlfleisch
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Supported, but in the tech tree it would be on its own without being connected to a line because if added to the Germans it would be the only Sukhoi jet for them. 

 

On 19/01/2019 at 22:22, triggerhappySOB said:

Now, initially, I was concerned about the sheer power of this aircraft with it's very powerful engines and top speed, along with that climb rate that outpaces even the Mig-19PT by a healthy margin.

 

Eventually we'll be at F-4 vs MiG-21 speeds. The MiG-19 and F-100 are just the beginning :) 

 

 

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Again, the MiG-19S wouldn't be a copy paste but yes, this particular jet would be nice for ground attack use, as that was its role in the GDR irl. It should be late tier 6 though, not early tier 6, I don't know what you were thinking comparing this to the MiG-19PT and F-100D in game.

 

I myself was going to make a post later on for this but here we are, thanks for giving the jet more exposure, next and finally, the MiG-23BN will be suggested to go before the Su-22 as it was also for the Ground attack role within the GDR, but less capable than the Su-22 they bought later on.

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41 minutes ago, Not_from_Tokyo said:

Again, the MiG-19S wouldn't be a copy paste

 

It will be. The USSR will get it sooner or later; it's the main and most mass produced MiG-19 model. I doubt Gaijin would give the nation with the lend-leased aircraft an advantage over the nation that owns the design. 

Edited by EpicBlitzkrieg87
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5 hours ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

It will be. The USSR will get it sooner or later; it's the main and most mass produced MiG-19 model. I doubt Gaijin would give the nation with the lend-leased aircraft an advantage over the nation that owns the design. 

Uh, advantage? The only advantage the S has is a third gun, not to mention it also doesn't have access to missiles.

 

I don't think anybody will push for the S model for the Soviet tree but come on, who'd want the S model over the PT that has guns AND missiles? 

Having both guns AND missiles is a huge advantage over just having a third gun and no missiles.

 

And even if the Soviet tree does get it later on after the GDR, then it would be a copy paste for THEM, not Germany.

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4 hours ago, Not_from_Tokyo said:

Uh, advantage? The only advantage the S has is a third gun, not to mention it also doesn't have access to missiles.

  

I don't think anybody will push for the S model for the Soviet tree but come on, who'd want the S model over the PT that has guns AND missiles? 

Having both guns AND missiles is a huge advantage over just having a third gun and no missiles.

 

And even if the Soviet tree does get it later on after the GDR, then it would be a copy paste for THEM, not Germany.

 

No, it would a copy paste for GERMANY, since the MiG-19 was designed by the USSR. And the MiG-19S is the main variant of the MiG-19, it will come sooner or later and probably before or when it also makes its way into the German tech tree.

 

The missiles are almost useless, I'd rather have a third gun. You've only grinded the German tech tree so you haven't tried missiles yet, don't falsely claim that having both guns and missiles is a huge advantage. 

 

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1 hour ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

No, it would a copy paste for GERMANY, since the MiG-19 was designed by the USSR. And the MiG-19S is the main variant of the MiG-19, it will come sooner or later and probably before or when it also makes its way into the German tech tree.

 

The missiles are almost useless, I'd rather have a third gun. You've only grinded the German tech tree so you haven't tried missiles yet, don't falsely claim that having both guns and missiles is a huge advantage. 

 

it is in sim... i like the 19 more than the F-100

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18 minutes ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

Is the missile warning message in sim too? 

nope thats why i like the 19 there more than the 100... its smaller, harder to spot and doesnt loose engergy as much... the AAM's are the cherry on to of it

Edited by dotEXCEL
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5 hours ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

No, it would a copy paste for GERMANY, since the MiG-19 was designed by the USSR. And the MiG-19S is the main variant of the MiG-19, it will come sooner or later and probably before or when it also makes its way into the German tech tree.

 

The missiles are almost useless, I'd rather have a third gun. You've only grinded the German tech tree so you haven't tried missiles yet, don't falsely claim that having both guns and missiles is a huge advantage. 

 

The PT is the better model so I hope the Soviet tree stays with it just like that. There’s nothing wrong with Germany getting a different and unique variant of the MiG-19 in game, it wouldn’t be copy paste that way either. 

 

I haven’t only grinded Germany you goofy, the missiles are quite fun and useful for both killing and manipulating the direction of a fight.

Edited by Not_from_Tokyo
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3 hours ago, dotEXCEL said:

nope thats why i like the 19 there more than the 100... its smaller, harder to spot and doesnt loose engergy as much... the AAM's are the cherry on to of it

 

I have to try out sim sometime soon then :D 

 

3 minutes ago, Not_from_Tokyo said:

The PT is the better model so I hope the Soviet tree stays with it just like that. There’s nothing wrong with Germany getting a different and unique variant of the MiG-19 in game, it wouldn’t be copy paste that way either. 

 

 

I'd rather have a third 30mm. Yes there's a bit of wrong to adding a unique variant to the nation that requested the lend-lease, kind of like how Gaijin adding the AD-4 for France first was nonsense.

 

5 minutes ago, Not_from_Tokyo said:

I haven’t only grounded Germany you goofy, the missiles are quite fun and useful for both killing and manipulating the direction of a fight.

 

You know you can easily check someone's service record to see what nations they play, no offense. They're not useful, the guy with the missile flying him has to fly dead straight or else the missile won't hit. 

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14 minutes ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

I'd rather have a third 30mm. Yes there's a bit of wrong to adding a unique variant to the nation that requested the lend-lease, kind of like how Gaijin adding the AD-4 for France first was nonsense.  

Well in that case...if you want to play the MiG-19S just play the GDR one once it’s added haha. 

 

14 minutes ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

You know you can easily check someone's service record to see what nations they play, no offense. 

Who’s to say I didn’t have a previous account? I grinded out various countries.

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On 20/01/2019 at 04:41, CokeSpray said:

Open for discussion. :salute:

However, you are required to list all source material you used to create this post, as stated in the posting rules for suggestions. That being said, I'll leave this thread open for 48 hours in order for you to complete this post by adding the sources mentioned before. Failing to meet this request within the allocated time will result in this thread being closed and archived.

Fixed it. Don't know how I forgot to add the sources in, but they're in the bottom of the original post.

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1 hour ago, triggerhappySOB said:

Fixed it. Don't know how I forgot to add the sources in, but they're in the bottom of the original post.

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  • 1 month later...
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On 24/01/2019 at 20:48, RanchSauce39 said:

dat moment when someone makes a suggestion of the su20/22 for the ussr tree without realzing they are export models of the Su17

I can feel it coming. We're almost to things like the A-4, A-6, Panavia Tornado, MiG-25 and Su-22 now. The day they announced the T-2, I felt it stir in my gut.

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+1 in the future, it’s weapons are too strong for current game.

 

15 hours ago, triggerhappySOB said:

I can feel it coming. We're almost to things like the A-4, A-6, Panavia Tornado, MiG-25 and Su-22 now. The day they announced the T-2, I felt it stir in my gut.

I highly disagree, the T2 is far from these.  Speed isn’t the only thing that must be considered in this equation (and even if so, he MiG-25 is like mach 2.85), many of these are 4th generation aircraft and we haven’t even gone 3rd generation, maybe the T2 counts as 3rd generation.  It would be inferior to most MiG 21s, so MiG-25s with mach 2.85 speeds and 80km ranged missiles is probably a little more modern than the T2.  T2 is 1970s but isn’t 1970s strength, 1970s strength means we’ll need to officially model the curvature of the earth.

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