schmerzmeister

This game is fundamentally flawed?

Ok, so I'm only fairly new to this game and it's true that I haven't yet developed much skill or knowledge in it yet. It's also true that as a newbie I made what seems to have been a fundamental mistake right at the beginning for a newcomer in that I chose to be 'British Tanks' first...especially as a beginner! However, I made the not unreasonable assumption that fundamental choices like this wouldn't matter in game play as all would be even out and there'd be a degree of 'fairness'.

 

However, quite quickly I started to read about "Russian Bias" etc. and whether it's real or not. I don't know whether it exactly is or not. Sometimes it feels like there is (and German Bias or even anti-British Bias) when I pound away at one of these enemy tanks like 15 times to absolutely no effect and then get a one-shot back which kills everyone inside my British tank instantly and virtually blows my turret off the top of my computer screen! :facepalm:

 

But, this is not my real gripe or the fundamental problem that I see in this game with 'fresh eyes'. I accept that I'm also just not very good at it yet. The fundamental problem also isn't that each of the tanks is rendered historically or mechanically inaccurate in terms of armour thickness, gun performance, shell effectiveness or dynamic performance of individual tanks.

 

No, the way I see it is that what is fundamentally wrong is that in Arcade Mode (which is all I've played) is that it pits EQUAL NUMBERS of tanks on each side against each other (within certain Tiers of course). This is of course historically incorrect and is in itself a fundamental form of bias! For example, German Tigers let alone Panthers (!) were never available in sufficient numbers to be pitched in equal numbers against British tanks in WW2. So that quite irrespective of any notions of Nationality Bias or unfair BR of certain tanks it is a fundamental bias for a team to have one Panther, for example, and the other to have one Comet or Firefly etc. There would have been packs of Shermans etc. versus single equivalent heavily armoured and heavily gunned German tanks. If this 'compensation' is not taken up when matches are paired up then it's always going to be flawed. Therefore, if for example, you choose to have a Panther then be prepared to face a proportionally worryingly larger number of British/Allied tanks as a consequence.

 

As a further more subtle, reality based modification which I'm sure could be programmed in, things like Panthers should be subject to random and catastrophic mechanical breakdowns just like the real ones of WW2.  Preferably, just at the very moment I have them in my British gun-sights from behind! Because that's the only place my British shells will even make a dent! LOL!   :lol2:

 

One question also...do the British tanks ever get to a level where they are fighting and hitting stuff, in their own Tier, where they're on a level footing or did I just make a terrible mistake right at the beginning in choosing them and I've wasted all this time and effort getting this far only to be destined forever more to be out armoured and out-gunned and shelled by everything I meet as I go up the tree? At the moment my highest BR tank is the A30 Centurion 1.

 

Thanks.

 

Edited by schmerzmeister
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Afaik most british tanks have ammo with high penetration power, that don't do that much damage after they got through, while german tanks have less penetration, but their shells explode inside the tank, most likely kill either the crew or lighten up an ammo rack, resulting in a one-shot-kill.

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First, about factions:

For beginner players recommended factions are any of "big 3" - USA, USSR, Germany because they have most developed techtrees, biggest selection of "tools" for every situation. Other factions have fewer vehicles, very vast BR gaps with no proper lineup and odd good vehicle now and then, or some other handicap like massive repair cost with french. 

Britsh have very rough start because their tanks don't use APHE (armor piercing high explosive) rounds so they as a rule need multiple (accurate) hits to kill, which is pain in the butt as you've noticed.

 

Later at tier 5/6 most players start to use APFSDS ammo and you get HESH so situation evens out somewhat. You get some interesing vehicles, FV one shot kill monsters, tortoise armored beast, some half decent mediums like chieftans, one pretty decent heavy tank (conqueror) and few other solid premium vehicles that are at least playable. Unfortunately your BR 10 lineup with challenger is not at great place atm so in top tier you have again meh tank. 

 

Russian bias was perhaps true once but not any more. Every nation is good at certain tier, Germans rule early tier, are meh at mid and are OK at high. Soviets are OK at early, great at mid and meh at high, US is meh early, mid OK and great at high. Imo any of these three is valid choice. If you want to play it safe go with Americans.

 

This game is not perfectly balanced and it will never be but still it's quite fun. Imo you should play as much vehicles as possible and remember then just killing is not the only goal - try to be of use to your team, do your job and achieve victory- Sometimes good AA vehicle or good scout can be of great help and he seemingly didn't "do" much. So play for fun and not for stats, my advice. 

 

 

 

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The US tree is no different. I feel the pain. The mechanical break downs I wouldn’t care for but yeah, there ought to be more Sherman’s when you fight Tigers or Panthers. You know your going to get stomped right from the beginning. The SL and RP income really bites when you are on the losing side most often just because of the country you chose to grind. You have to make it to the Abrams to finally cause someone stress when they see a US vehicle. 

Edited by Punisher_One
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The biggest mistake you made when you start playing Arcade mode.  This is for kids and people who don't know tanks and can't aim properly.

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Arcade is good to start out to learn the game fundamentals but aiming for a green plus sign won’t help you do your own aiming analysis like Dedushka said. Play some Realistic to force you to pick the aim spot and this mode will help you get used to looking for the tanks and not red name tags. Be aware you will die a lot and this is just part of the learning curve. I’m still learning to die in every fashion. 

 

You get a lot out of doing research time previewing your enemy tanks and looking at their armor layout to see weak spots. There are a lot of aspects to this game that watching you tube or twitch will help you greatly but you have to dedicate some time to do it. 

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36 minutes ago, Kan0nenfutter said:

Afaik most british tanks have ammo with high penetration power, that don't do that much damage after they got through

They do goood damage when they go trhough, but because they don't have HE filler, they don't do AS much damage as aphe shells.

plus they are flawed in that sense that if they just barely go though the armour they don't do hardly any damage at all.

37 minutes ago, Thorien_Kell said:

For beginner players recommended factions are any of "big 3" - USA, USSR, Germany

Litsen to this guy.

 

21 minutes ago, Dedushka_1963 said:

The biggest mistake you made when you start playing Arcade mode.  This is for kids and people who don't know tanks and can't aim properly.

Arcade is a good way top learn how the game works fundamentally, but you need to go to RB battles as soon as you get the game on a basic level to not cripple yourself with the aiming cross too much.

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37 minutes ago, Dedushka_1963 said:

The biggest mistake you made when you start playing Arcade mode.  This is for kids and people who don't know tanks and can't aim properly.

Or players with PS4 controllers ;)

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The only good British tanks in game are the only good British tanks IRL, aka Centurion. 

 

I joke, but honestly it's not a good tree to grind. 

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British tanks are very competitive (except at top tier) but they are by far the hardest to use, so I really wouldn't suggest them for beginners

 

The real fundamental flaws with the game are how Survivability and APHE are modeled. Tanks are much harder to kill in-game than they would be in real life because you really need to take out every single crew member, However, APHE shells are also modeled in a way that makes them much more effective at killing crew members than in real life. These competing effects mean that tanks using APHE (majority of tanks in the game) have more or less realistic performance, while other tanks using other ammunition types will take more shots to kill

 

British tanks are the only ones that never used APHE, because in real life, APHE was nowhere near as effective as it is in-game, so with British tanks in-game you often need to pump your enemies full of ammo until every person inside is dead, where as they can often one-shot you with APHE

 

However, the game balances tanks based on average player performance. Thus to compensate for the lack of APHE, british tanks will virtually always be pitted against vastly outdated and/or inferior tanks  (ex: centurions vs tiger 1s...). and so British tanks will virtually always have significantly better guns than their opponents in almost all situations, and at higher tiers they even get gun stabilisers before anyone gets any

 

If you shoot an enemy in their weak spots, the difference between AP and APHE is not too great, so if you're skilled and know where to shoot enemy tanks, then British tanks will give you a big advantage, since their more powerful guns will easily defeat the armor of the strongest opponents they face.

 

As you might guess, this makes them much harder to use for an inexperienced player, and so I recommend you try out some more Ace-friendly trees at first (the big three, US/russia/germany are usually the easiest)

 

Once you learn the basics and get good at the game (and evolve beyond arcade and into Realistic Battles) then you will see where british tanks really shine but for now, it's normal that you struggle to kill anything with them.

 

 

Maybe Gaijin will fix Survivability and APHE one day, but most have given up hope at this point, so enjoy your british tanks with superior guns in the meantime

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2 hours ago, Dedushka_1963 said:

The biggest mistake you made when you start playing Arcade mode.  This is for kids and people who don't know tanks and can't aim properly.

Hah, hah.... I play only arcade, not a kid anymore and can shoot 500m metal target down with iron sighted AR-15 rifle. :)

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1 hour ago, i_ivanof said:

British tanks are very competitive (except at top tier) but they are by far the hardest to use, so I really wouldn't suggest them for beginners

 

The real fundamental flaws with the game are how Survivability and APHE are modeled. Tanks are much harder to kill in-game than they would be in real life because you really need to take out every single crew member, However, APHE shells are also modeled in a way that makes them much more effective at killing crew members than in real life. These competing effects mean that tanks using APHE (majority of tanks in the game) have more or less realistic performance, while other tanks using other ammunition types will take more shots to kill

 

British tanks are the only ones that never used APHE, because in real life, APHE was nowhere near as effective as it is in-game, so with British tanks in-game you often need to pump your enemies full of ammo until every person inside is dead, where as they can often one-shot you with APHE

 

However, the game balances tanks based on average player performance. Thus to compensate for the lack of APHE, british tanks will virtually always be pitted against vastly outdated and/or inferior tanks  (ex: centurions vs tiger 1s...). and so British tanks will virtually always have significantly better guns than their opponents in almost all situations, and at higher tiers they even get gun stabilisers before anyone gets any

 

If you shoot an enemy in their weak spots, the difference between AP and APHE is not too great, so if you're skilled and know where to shoot enemy tanks, then British tanks will give you a big advantage, since their more powerful guns will easily defeat the armor of the strongest opponents they face.

 

As you might guess, this makes them much harder to use for an inexperienced player, and so I recommend you try out some more Ace-friendly trees at first (the big three, US/russia/germany are usually the easiest)

 

Once you learn the basics and get good at the game (and evolve beyond arcade and into Realistic Battles) then you will see where british tanks really shine but for now, it's normal that you struggle to kill anything with them.

 

 

Maybe Gaijin will fix Survivability and APHE one day, but most have given up hope at this point, so enjoy your british tanks with superior guns in the meantime

Not so sure BR is modelled like you say...

 

Taking m10 vs Achiles...as example...i feel m10 to be more effective but yet it is lower br.

I understand 17 pdr has more pen...but vs most real targets m10 is more effective...for the reasons you mention

 

Anyhow... Brit tanks are fun... Just need better aim...tougher on PS4 ;)

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6 minutes ago, *GhostSoph said:

Not so sure BR is modelled like you say...

 

Taking m10 vs Achiles...as example...i feel m10 to be more effective but yet it is lower br.

I understand 17 pdr has more pen...but vs most real targets m10 is more effective...for the reasons you mention

 

Anyhow... Brit tanks are fun... Just need better aim...tougher on PS4 ;)

 

the 17 pounder is definitely better than the 76mm in all respects other than post-pen damage, there's many heavy tanks the 76mm might struggle with that the achilles will punch through like butter

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2 hours ago, Alopekethen said:

The only good British tanks in game are the only good British tanks IRL, aka Centurion. 

 

I joke, but honestly it's not a good tree to grind. 

when you have the Magic MBT everything changes though!

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No, the way I see it is that what is fundamentally wrong is that in Arcade Mode (which is all I've played) is that it pits EQUAL NUMBERS of tanks on each side against each other (within certain Tiers of course). This is of course historically incorrect and is in itself a fundamental form of bias! 

This something called game balance. It would be no fun at all for a player in a Panther D, to be facing down 20 T-34/85s. Sure the Panther may get a few, but it's going to get destroyed by sheer numbers in the end. You see, War Thunder tries its best to emulate a sense of realism in its gameplay, but it's not designed to be a totally historically accurate ultra realistic simulator. There are dedicated sims for that (e.g. ArmA, DCS, IL-2, Steel Beasts and even those have balanced teams) and the funny thing is, if this game had perfect historical accuracy, then the entire German team should just be facing off against the entire Allied Air Force. Yeah, the game wouldn't be very fun.To design a fun multiplayer game is to make it fair for all players, no matter what side.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Dedushka_1963 said:

The biggest mistake you made when you start playing Arcade mode.  This is for kids and people who don't know tanks and can't aim properly.

 

Well yea, but add there older players who have slower reflexes and want some casual fun at the end of the day. It's good mode to learn basics, maps, tank weakspots etc.

Personally my biggest turnoff for RB is that is't stressful and strenuous, I peel my eyes like a madman scanning wildly, watching carefully my every step  .... it's quite exhausting. I could play 1 RB or 3 AB for same amount of energy. For me, it's a important factor. 

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22 minutes ago, Thorien_Kell said:

Well yea, but add there older players who have slower reflexes

 

War Thunder is no Call of Duty™ it's about smart positioning your vehicles and setup killzones to lockdown a certain area or chokepoint of the map.

In a way it's more like a game of chess rather than a bunch of bunnyhopping, dolphindiving and 360 noscoping bunch of mentally challenged.

 

That is ofcourse untill you start to seeing matches with M18's and XM-1 players :facepalm:

 

 

29 minutes ago, Thorien_Kell said:

It's good mode to learn basics, maps, tank weakspots etc.

 

To learn the maps and to spade your vehicle sure but other than that you learn absolutly nothing from playing Arcade, in fact you're more likely to develop some really bad habits that will only harm you in RB.

 

 

33 minutes ago, Thorien_Kell said:

Personally my biggest turnoff for RB is that is't stressful and strenuous, I peel my eyes like a madman scanning wildly.

 

Get comfortable and experienced and you will find RB is nothing like that at all.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Thorien_Kell said:

watching carefully my every step  .

 

Just like you would (and should be) if you were in a real tank.

 

 

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I can assure you there is no such thing as bias in this game. It originally came out to be a joke then back in 2015 or so, many players with insufficient experience took it seriously and legitimized it for themselves and that trapped many others too. This is the only thing I can say here since I don't play tank arcade at all.

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Early game I think a case could have been made for bias, especially Soviet fighters (before ground RB was a thing), and early ground RB was basically just genuine Wehraboos who thought they should be owning everything. Now bias just changes from patch to patch at high tier. 

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5 hours ago, takkuta said:

Hah, hah.... I play only arcade, not a kid anymore and can shoot 500m metal target down with iron sighted AR-15 rifle. :)

Arcade is for a weak minded  :D

It won't let you think for yourself.

 

 

Edited by Dedushka_1963
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On 19/01/2019 at 15:26, schmerzmeister said:

Ok, so I'm only fairly new to this game and it's true that I haven't yet developed much skill or knowledge in it yet. It's also true that as a newbie I made what seems to have been a fundamental mistake right at the beginning for a newcomer in that I chose to be 'British Tanks' first...especially as a beginner! However, I made the not unreasonable assumption that fundamental choices like this wouldn't matter in game play as all would be even out and there'd be a degree of 'fairness'.

 

However, quite quickly I started to read about "Russian Bias" etc. and whether it's real or not. I don't know whether it exactly is or not. Sometimes it feels like there is (and German Bias or even anti-British Bias) when I pound away at one of these enemy tanks like 15 times to absolutely no effect and then get a one-shot back which kills everyone inside my British tank instantly and virtually blows my turret off the top of my computer screen! :facepalm:

British can be a bit rough, but not bad. If being a bit mindful of your approach towards enemies, playing British is no problem most of the time. The quicker flow of Arcade can make the learning curve a bit steeper. The "russian bias" nowdays exist in the sense that sloped armor work really well in the game, and the russian tanks tend to have a lot of it. It's a reason why for example T-34's dominate the 3.7 area, together with decent firepower and good mobility.

As has been stated, good starting nations are Russia and Germany. I'd say US come slightly behind those 2.

 

On 19/01/2019 at 15:26, schmerzmeister said:

No, the way I see it is that what is fundamentally wrong is that in Arcade Mode (which is all I've played) is that it pits EQUAL NUMBERS of tanks on each side against each other (within certain Tiers of course). This is of course historically incorrect and is in itself a fundamental form of bias! For example, German Tigers let alone Panthers (!) were never available in sufficient numbers to be pitched in equal numbers against British tanks in WW2. So that quite irrespective of any notions of Nationality Bias or unfair BR of certain tanks it is a fundamental bias for a team to have one Panther, for example, and the other to have one Comet or Firefly etc. There would have been packs of Shermans etc. versus single equivalent heavily armoured and heavily gunned German tanks. If this 'compensation' is not taken up when matches are paired up then it's always going to be flawed. Therefore, if for example, you choose to have a Panther then be prepared to face a proportionally worryingly larger number of British/Allied tanks as a consequence.

 

As a further more subtle, reality based modification which I'm sure could be programmed in, things like Panthers should be subject to random and catastrophic mechanical breakdowns just like the real ones of WW2.  Preferably, just at the very moment I have them in my British gun-sights from behind! Because that's the only place my British shells will even make a dent! LOL!   :lol2:

 The game would most likely not be more balanced with more historical correct numbers. It would make it worse. Since Arcade is mixed with all nations against all nations, there's no need to have different numbers of players in the teams. Equal numbers will be more balanced in the long run.

 

The reality based mechanics like mechanical breakdowns etc would cause more frustrating gameplay. That would be a way for the game to suddenly punish you without cause or logic. If you drive too hard into a building or a rock, your tracks can be damaged. That make more sense, an action had a reaction. Just driving along and suddenly break down due to a badly designed gearbox will make people avoid those vehicles. The Modification system do allow for "changing" stuff like tracks, suspension, engine, etc, but Gaijin also stated that it was too frustrating. The engines for planes can overheat, and say if a system for tanks where you "push" your tank too hard for too long, making it overheat and break down, could make it closer to reality but is still borderline frustrating as well. Similar would be if driving too hard on rough terrain and tracks might break. Closer to reality but could cause too frustrating gameplay. In my mind, both ideas could also make the player think a bit more how to play the game.

 

But the short answer is, for balance and playability.

 

On 19/01/2019 at 15:26, schmerzmeister said:

One question also...do the British tanks ever get to a level where they are fighting and hitting stuff, in their own Tier, where they're on a level footing or did I just make a terrible mistake right at the beginning in choosing them and I've wasted all this time and effort getting this far only to be destined forever more to be out armoured and out-gunned and shelled by everything I meet as I go up the tree? At the moment my highest BR tank is the A30 Centurion 1.

3.0 is where they start to shine. At 3.0-3.3 they are quick and powerful. Aim center mass and most tanks blow up good. I really love the 6.7-7.0 lineup. Hull down, using cover and hills, you can be pretty deadly. Same goes for the now 8.7 Chieftans. At 4.7 you can be pretty tanky with the churchill and support with both the Sherman Firefly's and Avenger's powerful gun.

 

On 19/01/2019 at 16:18, Dedushka_1963 said:

The biggest mistake you made when you start playing Arcade mode.  This is for kids and people who don't know tanks and can't aim properly.

21 hours ago, Dedushka_1963 said:

Arcade is for a weak minded  :D

It won't let you think for yourself.

What's the point with this nonsense? They are 2 different game modes which speak to different audiences. Stop with the realistic/sim elitism. Don't just knock Arcade because you're bad at it. You Have to think in Arcade due to the spotting system. You have to think fast, you have to react quickly, you have to be accurate, otherwise you're dead. In Realistic you have more leeway as people can miss you, or you can hide behind a breakable wall which is impossible in Arcade, etc. What we tend to say is that a really good Arcade player can do good in Realistic, but a good Realistic player can still struggle in Arcade. They tend to not keep up with the faster pace, has been the comments from RB players.

 

 

There's no secret that Realistic is a slower type of game mode. But I recommend trying it, schmerzmeister. If you like it, feel free to continue with it. It's good fun at times. Both game modes are good at different things. Don't listen to the bad elitists not able to play both.

 

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4 hours ago, Arium said:

Don't just knock Arcade because you're bad at it. You Have to think in Arcade due to the spotting system. You have to think fast, you have to react quickly, you have to be accurate, otherwise you're dead. In Realistic you have more leeway as you people can miss you, or you can hide behind a breakable wall which is impossible in Arcade, etc. What we tend to say is that a really good Arcade player can do good in Realistic, but a good Realistic player can still struggle in Arcade. They tend to not keep up with the faster pace, has been the comments from RB players.

I'm not bad at Arcade.  It's just boring when game is thinking for you, as where to aim to kill a tank. I used to play Arcade for many years in WOT.  I start playing Arcade in WT at the very beginning but fairly quickly switched to RB, where tanks and airplanes act as in the real world. But now and then I visiting Arcade mode to make 11-13 kills and just wonder how can anyone be bad at it...

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11 hours ago, Dedushka_1963 said:

I'm not bad at Arcade.  It's just boring when game is thinking for you, as where to aim to kill a tank. I used to play Arcade for many years in WOT.  I start playing Arcade in WT at the very beginning but fairly quickly switched to RB, where tanks and airplanes act as in the real world. But now and then I visiting Arcade mode to make 11-13 kills and just wonder how can anyone be bad at it...

I'm sorry to say, but I'm calling you out. Your stats does not reflect what you're stating. Your average kill rate with vehicles per battle is just too low in Arcade for such a statement. I found some replays between December and September, which were your last 10 Arcade Tank (skipped Ship) matches, and by the looks of your position in the team, I sincerely doubt 11-13 kills have been made in any of those. Maybe in most of those games together. I don't like when claims without backup is put into discussions, especially with what most likely is false information.

 

Feel free to continue playing Realistic if you so prefer, but do not throw dirt on Arcade because you dont like it or isn't good at it. It's far from a mindless game mode. This comes from someone who actually do 11-13 kills in many cases, especially when it's warbond time at 5.3, but also at other BR's occasionally. Trust me, people can be really bad in Arcade and they would probably be bad in Realistic too.

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