gargaras

German Canons

Did german 20mm's get fixed? Last time i plaed (A Year Ago) i had quitted because of constant sparking mith 20mm shells........ And that 50.cal was working beastly.

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56 minutes ago, gargaras said:

Did german 20mm's get fixed? Last time i plaed (A Year Ago) i had quitted because of constant sparking mith 20mm shells........ And that 50.cal was working beastly.

.50 cals are still lasers.

German 20mms are great.

The only aircraft guns which seem to be really broken (underperforming) are the British 20mms and some Japanese guns.

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On 12/01/2019 at 09:31, gargaras said:

Did german 20mm's get fixed? Last time i plaed (A Year Ago) i had quitted because of constant sparking mith 20mm shells........ And that 50.cal was working beastly.

German cannons with upgraded belts are some of the best in the game.

Default belts are mostly the 100% useless IT rounds (which lack fire chance and generally suck).

If they fix the IT rounds and have them act as they should (If they get into a fuel tank, the plane should basically explode), they would be much more usable without upgrades.

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It a cheat, Simply a cheat. only hipocrit or player who never try Something else (because 85%+ play Germany as main, go look arcade air battle or tank) say no it isn't ! the 1.88 change plane fighting to more unbalanced than before with bomber in paper, German more powerfull, 12.7 + 20mm USA more stronger, but soviet HE 20mm(not Ap/Fi-T) + 20mm Brits, French, japan(+ 12.7 belt wrong and useless before) compltely crap to trash, especially Hispano brits/french! Bravo gaijin!! GG up Germany  eneugh OP, + Soviet for the 9 premium planes who use 0.50 US, its so strange coincidencies. its like the BR of germany/soviet tank vs US equivalent!!

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10 minutes ago, Pexitron said:

It a cheat, Simply a cheat. only hipocrit or player who never try Something else (because 85%+ play Germany as main, go look arcade air battle or tank) say no it isn't ! the 1.88 change plane fighting to more unbalanced than before with bomber in paper, German more powerfull, 12.7 + 20mm USA more stronger, but soviet HE 20mm(not Ap/Fi-T) + 20mm Brits, French, japan(+ 12.7 belt wrong and useless before) compltely crap to trash, especially Hispano brits/french! Bravo gaijin!! GG up Germany  eneugh OP, + Soviet for the 9 premium planes who use 0.50 US, its so strange coincidencies. its like the BR of germany/soviet tank vs US equivalent!!

 

You do realise german cannons are ironically UNDERPERFORMING compared to what they should be, right? 

They're missing fire chance, shell types, accuracy...

German cannons were simply very very good in real life.

Other nations cannons are also underperforming to various degrees. They need fire chance fixes, belt fixes, etc.

Japanese cannons need an accuracy nerf (literally 2 times as accurate as anyone elses), and belt fixes.

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15 hours ago, CaptainZeno said:

You do realise german cannons are ironically UNDERPERFORMING compared to what they should be, right?

.... underperforming ..... yea

 

Because in real life when a cannon round hit a bomber, that bomber evaporated with nothing but a steam left. Here it just explodes and parts are still falling to the ground. That's unrealistic and should get buffed.

Edited by Youda008
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4 hours ago, Youda008 said:

.... underperforming ..... yea

 

Because in real life when a cannon round hit a bomber, that bomber evaporated with nothing but a steam left. Here it just explodes and parts are still falling to the ground. That's unrealistic and should get buffed.

That is an issue with bomber DM's, relative to historical data, the 151's are missing many things.

Bombers need to be like 3 times as durable easily. XD

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8 hours ago, CaptainZeno said:

That is an issue with bomber DM's, relative to historical data, the 151's are missing many things.

Bombers need to be like 3 times as durable easily. XD

It's not just bombers, fighters are equally explosive, when touched by 20mm

 

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Just now, Youda008 said:

It's not just bombers, fighters are equally explosive, when touched by 20mm

 

Going to be frank, what do you expect? That's a good 10 or so 20mm Mineschoss hitting a plane.

 

I get the same kills with quad 20mm AN/M2's and M2Brownings.

And if you think that's bad, that's only 18 grams of filler. Germans had a round with 25 grams! Which is missing ingame.

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Please show me a WWII guncam or pilot report showing that plane exploded to pieces like that after being hit.

Also, that i fired 10 rounds doesn't mean i hit all those rounds, it's most probably only 2-4 hitting the plane.

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Actually, i have some

In several instances there, the plane is hit 3 or more times, but it doesn't explode, nor its wing or tail is cut off.

You're just imagining the strength in your head based on no real data.

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And what to say of the allied cannons which blow planes to pieces? Planes right now are just too weak.

German He rounds were the most powerful, and relative to guns ingame, seem balanced.

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On 20/01/2019 at 03:30, CaptainZeno said:

 

You do realise german cannons are ironically UNDERPERFORMING compared to what they should be, right? 

They're missing fire chance, shell types, accuracy...

German cannons were simply very very good in real life.

Other nations cannons are also underperforming to various degrees. They need fire chance fixes, belt fixes, etc.

Japanese cannons need an accuracy nerf (literally 2 times as accurate as anyone elses), and belt fixes.

Err...almost all weapons in game are severing planes in half in a couple bursts...

 

When i play planes i almost ALWAYS die in some "Hoollywoodesque" way where my plane tail or wings are severed...and the attacker can be almost anything...true it is usually a German or American plane...but they do represent the most frequent used planes...

 

HOW can this be underperforming by ANY standards...???

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9 minutes ago, *GhostSoph said:

Err...almost all weapons in game are severing planes in half in a couple bursts...

 

When i play planes i almost ALWAYS die in some "Hoollywoodesque" way where my plane tail or wings are severed...and the attacker can be almost anything...true it is usually a German or American plane...but they do represent the most frequent used planes...

 

HOW can this be underperforming by ANY standards...???

 

Underperforming relative to the shells they fire in comparison to other cannons.

Why do german IT (mineschoss full of incendiary) rounds have less fire chance than .50cal API?

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49 minutes ago, CaptainZeno said:

 

Underperforming relative to the shells they fire in comparison to other cannons.

Why do german IT (mineschoss full of incendiary) rounds have less fire chance than .50cal API?

I can agree with this...in theory at least

However...if ALL weapons demolish ALL planes, underperforming is not the best term ;) (although i can see what you meant)

And yes...i also complained somewhere that .5 cals were far too powerful...problem was that the "fix" was making ALL WEAPONS "far too powerful".

 

Note...i don't have the knowledge to ascertain if German 20mm are well tuned compared to others...but i do "know":

- Not all planes should die by complete destruction

- Mgs (and even canons) should not hit consistently at 1km or more

- A few hits should not do so much damage

 

 

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On 20/01/2019 at 04:15, Pexitron said:

It a cheat, Simply a cheat. only hipocrit or player who never try Something else (because 85%+ play Germany as main, go look arcade air battle or tank) say no it isn't ! the 1.88 change plane fighting to more unbalanced than before with bomber in paper, German more powerfull, 12.7 + 20mm USA more stronger, but soviet HE 20mm(not Ap/Fi-T) + 20mm Brits, French, japan(+ 12.7 belt wrong and useless before) compltely crap to trash, especially Hispano brits/french! Bravo gaijin!! GG up Germany  eneugh OP, + Soviet for the 9 premium planes who use 0.50 US, its so strange coincidencies. its like the BR of germany/soviet tank vs US equivalent!!

 

6 hours ago, *GhostSoph said:

Err...almost all weapons in game are severing planes in half in a couple bursts...

 

When i play planes i almost ALWAYS die in some "Hoollywoodesque" way where my plane tail or wings are severed...and the attacker can be almost anything...true it is usually a German or American plane...but they do represent the most frequent used planes...

 

HOW can this be underperforming by ANY standards...???

 

German 20mm canons are fine.

 

Most 20mm canons requiered about 2 hits to disable a single-engine fighter. (that is the actual value gun-cam analyses gave for the 20mm Hispano Mk.II canon)

 

What isn't fine :

  • Some other 20mm canons underperforme (i highly doubt Hispano Mk.II canon are actually able to disable a target in 2 hits currently in WT). Most should be just a tiny winy bit less powerfull than german canons. Disabling single-engine targets on an average of 2 hits.
  • How it actually looks is wrong. Aircraft "killed" (actually disabled) by 20mm canons should lose controls and/or most lift on surfaces impacted and rendered uncontrolable. Not blow into peices. That how air-to-air combat vistories came out. By disabling the machine or the pilot. Uncontrollable aircrafts going their merry way to the ground. Possibly breaking wings or/and tail during their fall. But definitly not blowing to pieces like we currently see in WT.
Edited by SuperDuperOtter
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2 hours ago, SuperDuperOtter said:

German 20mm canons are fine.

 

They are "fine" and "balanced", but this is the balance inside the ridicoulus meta of the glass damage model.

 

Quote

[...] Possibly breaking wings or/and tail during their fall. But definitly not blowing to pieces like we currently see in WT.

 

As a rule of thumb, cannon shells carrying high explosives inflict much more catastrophic damage to the aircraft than machine gun kinetic bullets. 

 

Figuratively speaking: HEI shells tear the plane apart piece by piece, while small kinetic bullets cause internal damage...or just pass through. It's more or less the difference between a broad viking sword and a narrow rapier. You can deal a deadly blow if you have luck and pierce an important internal organ, but you will not cut off enemys head or leg with rapier. Rapier lacks stopping power and the same applies to small kinetic bullets vs aircraft in real life.

 

Unfortunately in the game this difference has been blurred and small-caliber kinetic bullets, with an emphasis on .50 cals,  tear planes apart like HEI cannon shells.

 

As for German WWII aircraft cannons - regardless of how much all guns from 7.7 mm up to 20 mm are overperforming in the game now, German 13 mm and 20 mm ammunition, with emphasis on projectiles, was objectively more advanced and more effective than Allied one. At the same time these German calibers suffered from below average ballistics, especially on larger distances.

 

And that should be reflected in the game. Is it? Let's see.. Regarding Explosive Damage not that much (state from a couple of months ago, so it can be slightly outdated):

 

SHVAK/B20: 

HEF ("explodeTreshold": 0.1, "explodeHitPower": 15.0, "explodeArmorPower": 5.0, "explodeRadius": [0.045,0.45])

 

ANM2:

HEFI ("explodeTreshold": 0.1, "explodeHitPower": 16.0, "explodeArmorPower": 6.0, "explodeRadius": [0.058,0.58])

ANM3: Identical to ANM2

 

Hispano Mk2:

HEFI ("explodeTreshold": 0.1, "explodeHitPower": 16.0, "explodeArmorPower": 6.0, "explodeRadius": [0.058,0.58])

 

MG-151 (20):

HEI-m ("explodeTreshold": 0.4, "explodeHitPower": 19.0, "explodeArmorPower": 6.0, "explodeRadius": [0.15,0.75])


Winner= German HEI-m, without a doubt, with a whopping 19 points of explodehitpower. However, it should be noted that many shells are very close to it's damage, and get superior fragmentation damage. I believe it is underperforming by a fair bit, as it historically held 2 times the explosive mass of other shells.

 

More: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/8lzlwg/datamined_statistics_for_20mm_cannons/

Edit: Cannon buff just doubled these values:

 

In 1.79 several aircraft cannons received a buff. This buff was done by adding a second HE definition, the way a tank HE shell is defined, to the rounds on top of the original HE definition used by most aircraft rounds.

 

New Cannon Double HE list:

AN/M2 & AN/M3

        HEF-I

 

B-20 / B-20M / B-20S

        FI-T

        HEF

 

        20 mm Hispano 404 / Hispano HS.9 / Hispano Mk.I /  Hispano Mk.II /  Hispano Mk.V

                HEF-I

        

        40 mm Ho-301

                FI

                HEFI-T

                HEF-I

 

        20 mm Ho-5

                HEF-I

        

        20 mm M50

                HEF-I

        

        15 mm MG 151

                AI

        

        20 mm MG 151

                HEI Mine

        

        20 mm MG FF/M

                HEI Mine

        

        23 mm NR-23 / NS-23 / NS-23K

                FI-T

        

        23 mm PTB-23

                FI-T

                FI

        

        20 mm ShVAK

                FI-T

                HEF

                FI

        

        20 mm FMC T-160

                HEF-I

        

        20 mm Type 97

                FI

                HEFI-T

                HEF-I

        

20 mm Type 99 Model 1 / Model 2

        HEF-I

        HEF-T

        HEF

 

23 mm VYa-23

        FI-T

        FI

 

13 mm MG 131

        IAI

        

Rounds that do NOT have the HE filler listing but probably should.

        20mm MG 151

        APHE

 

20 mm Hispano 404 / Hispano HS.9 / Hispano Mk.I /  Hispano Mk.II /  Hispano Mk.V

        SAPI

 

20 mm M50

        SAPI

 

20 mm MG C/30L        

        HEFI-T

 

20 mm MG FF / FF/M

        APHE

        FI-T

 

All sub 13mm IAI rounds

https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vS9_HkSvBM63zOH8KUGwjG-ijO4d5G7JIdThcA2MmMyydckO4ccEKzTM5lHQFks7JM4O6Pl-2xU0j2_/pub

 

 

 

If that datamine is a complete picture of changes, that mean nothing has been done to buff 30 mm, 37 mm and so on. So if anything changed for 30-37 mm hit it is just weaker damage model.

 

And if damage model is generaly weaker, that mean even .50 cals, while not being cannons, are beneficient of "cannons buff". That is for sure NOT right direction for fixing some underperforming cannons. :(

 

 

 

Edited by Einherjer1979
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3 hours ago, Einherjer1979 said:

If that datamine is a complete picture of changes, that mean nothing has been done to buff 30 mm, 37 mm and so on. So if anything changed for 30-37 mm hit it is just weaker damage model.

30mm were buffed as well. Type 5, and german cannons most certainly have the new code. Others likely too.

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11 hours ago, Einherjer1979 said:

Winner= German HEI-m, without a doubt, with a whopping 19 points of explodehitpower. However, it should be noted that many shells are very close to it's damage, and get superior fragmentation damage. I believe it is underperforming by a fair bit, as it historically held 2 times the explosive mass of other shells.

And don't forget to mention the explosion radius being 3x greater than any other shell, making bigger, broader damages on modules

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Note : when i say German 20mm are fine, i mean they performe in the game roughtly as they performed historically. They disable aircrafts with about the amount of hits they should.

 

That doesn't mean it's good for the game's balance. Neither that it's done the right way.

 

There are legitimate damage/DM issues :

 

  • The overall range effectiness of most guns is way too great (most notable exemple being .50 cal MGs, but 151/20 canons are not completly exempt here) : This one is a tricky one. According to devs and data miners, damages over distance a pretty accurate for kenitic projectiles. And the issue can be felt with some non-kenitic rounds too. My guess is, it's too easy to land hits at greater distances. And I think a too great accuracy is to blame. Even though, 800m max convergence range and MA make things worse.
  • There are apparent discrepencies in the effectiveness of incendiary rounds. This remains unclear and debatable, but i think there is something here.
  • There are discrepencies in 20mm canons effectiveness : 20mm canons shouldn't take more than 3 hits on average to disable a single-engine target. The "Canon buff" patch decreased this issue. But quite some 20mm canons are still far from that.
  • In most instences, aircraft are destroyed instead of being disabled : DM issue ; structural elements are too weak compared to fonctional elements. I include tail section loses and Smaller caliber MGs cutting wings off in this category.

 

 

Edited by SuperDuperOtter
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2 hours ago, SuperDuperOtter said:

Note : when i say German 20mm are fine, i mean they performe in the game roughtly as they performed historically. They disable aircrafts with about the amount of hits they should.

I am not so sure...

 

Or perhaps the problem is the number of hits that are possible due to mouseaim mechanics...or the ease with each a fighter can get to the bomber...

 

Having a heavy bomber demolished by the first couple bursts of a single attacking fighter...EVERYTIME...makes sense???

The bomber offensives of WW2 would never had been possible...

 

TO BE CLEAR...i think the bomber should be DESTROYED by a determinate fighter attack. BUT that was happening BEFORE 1.85...the difference was it required MUCH MORE bursts...and this would require the attacker to plan its attacks, have to avoid (or absrob) damage...and would provide an interesting engagement...

Bomber would manoeuvre to avoid shots and give its gunners better angles...and try to get more bombs on target...fighter would manoeuvre to inflict damage, avoid return fire...and each one would have a plan. Even better...as this would take time, it would allow other planes to join sometimes...either escorts or interceptors...

 

 

Something is wrong...perhaps not the 20mm lethality...but its effects are breaking the game mechanics (at least for me). I am playing 10% of what i used to...and the planes that annoy me more are the Me109/Fw190 OR the .5 cals gang...

(Conversely...when i play planes...i will use 109/190 and the .5 cals gang)

Edited by *GhostSoph
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1 hour ago, *GhostSoph said:

I am not so sure...

 

Or perhaps the problem is the number of hits that are possible due to mouseaim mechanics...or the ease with each a fighter can get to the bomber...

 

Having a heavy bomber demolished by the first couple bursts of a single attacking fighter...EVERYTIME...makes sense???

The bomber offensives of WW2 would never had been possible...

 

TO BE CLEAR...i think the bomber should be DESTROYED by a determinate fighter attack. BUT that was happening BEFORE 1.85...the difference was it required MUCH MORE bursts...and this would require the attacker to plan its attacks, have to avoid (or absrob) damage...and would provide an interesting engagement...

Bomber would manoeuvre to avoid shots and give its gunners better angles...and try to get more bombs on target...fighter would manoeuvre to inflict damage, avoid return fire...and each one would have a plan. Even better...as this would take time, it would allow other planes to join sometimes...either escorts or interceptors...

 

 

Something is wrong...perhaps not the 20mm lethality...but its effects are breaking the game mechanics (at least for me). I am playing 10% of what i used to...and the planes that annoy me more are the Me109/Fw190 OR the .5 cals gang...

(Conversely...when i play planes...i will use 109/190 and the .5 cals gang)

 

My bad, i should have said that i was concidering 20mm hits against single-engine fighters, not bombers.


Though, i don't think 20mm hits are far from reality on bombers too. I think it has more to do with how easy it is to land hits in WT.

 

Just look for gun-cam footages featuring german planes shooting at bombers. They appear to be sitting and shooting at bombers for what feels like ages compared to WT. Not disabling bombers, but not being really disuaded by turret fire from full bomber formations.
On the few shootages of good enough quality to see hits, you realise that the reason why they appear to not being able to disable bombers fast, is because they just don't hit them. Once you see a few flashes or smoke puffs on the bombers, they appear to take these few hits badly. Fires, parts flying off, going off-course (reveling control issues) etc. They require more hits than single-engine fighters, but they don't require alot more hits.

 

In the post you've quoted, i mentioned i think the accuracy of most guns in WT is way above what it should be. Meaning, we down bombers in about the same amount of hits than it took historically, but we can land these hits on targets much more effectively than what was historicaly possible. Damage doesn't appears to be the issue to me, accuracy appears to be.

 

It applie to bomber's turrets too, making WT's bombers much more of a threat to fighters than these footages show. To some degree, balancing the too-easy to land hits of the fighters (certainly not perfectly). It leads to frustration for both fighters players and bombers players. As one can down the other in an instant. Which feels wrong.

 

By looking at accuracy in WT and making it closer to reality (decrease accuracy at longer range), frustration should decreasing in the bomber v. fighter case. As both parties would get more and longer opportunties to use their skill instead of instantly being sent to hangar.

 

Also, MA magnifies this accuracy issue. By making controls easier, it's easier to aim correctly. As guns accuracy is greater than it should, you have a easier time to aim, and once aim in on point, you get more hits than you should. Though, i don't think MA should be changed. Or only marginaly. I think Gaijin should aim at a middle ground. With the comfort of easier controls MA offers, but with a decrease of gun accuracy over typical WWII convergence range. (pretty much the same accuracy at 400m, but quickly decrases over that range)

 

The main problem with that is that i don't know how it would impact AB and SB. I don't think it would impact SB much, or at all ? since most engagement happen at much closer ranges than in RB from what i understand ? But i think it would be badly received by AB players. Gaijin would probably not go that way ...

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Nope, mouse aim and accuracy has nothing to do with that. Even with joystick, the wobble, the recoil, all of that

It's simply 1-3 bullets tearing bomber's wing or tail apart.

 

Contrary to what you can see for example here, where after several hits the bomber is still intact.

 

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I think we all agree that bomber DM's right now are damned awful.

Additionally 20mm Mineshcoss should kill a fighter within a few hits, but not by ripping/exploding them.

Historically German kills were due to HE damage making the plane uncontrollable (giant holes=no lift), and Incendiary rounds detonating/setting fuel tanks on fire.

Right now ALL HE rounds need to rip less giant parts off, do more lift damage, and Incendiary rounds (British SAPI and german I/IT) needs a higher fire chance.

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British sapi rounds only have 4mm penetration in game, when in reality armour piercing nose could pen 20mm. Whole point of the round was to penetrate oil and fuel tanks and the incendiary charge (akin to thermite) would 'follow' the armour piercing element. As a lot of guel tanks have way more than 4mm arour round is underperforming by a long shot.

 

Aside from that fighters exploding in to thousands of pieces is a poor reflection of reality, but it's what everyone asked for (and what people seem to ask more of).

 

Regarding the difference between mineshell and other he shells, seems to be a discussion that's been happening since forever. Both had advantages and disadvantages. Thicker shelled HE shells (like hispano rounds) created their own, larger and heavier shrapnel that had higher chance of travelling through major component and damaging, or pilot. Mineshell rounds had very thin wall section, so when exploding would create very small fragments that, while being plentiful, didn't have the same energy Mineshell rounds relied on hitting soft skin and causing that to fragment...same principle for both rounds just different way to achieve it.

 

As for being more technologically advanced? Not the term I would use. Mineshells were short lived in the history of cannon projectiles. More difficult to produce, more expensive, less range, poor performance against heavily armoured targets. Better in some circumstances sure, but not the be all and end all of cannon shells that some people seem to be hung up on. I've heard that weapons designers are on the way to going full circle, implementing frangible core rounds (solid shot) for the M61 vulcan for use against aerial targets, but I still haven't found this published anywhere.

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