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Dassault Super Mystère B.4 - The Perfect French Supersonic Counterpart for the MiG-19


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168 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you want the B.4 modification in the game?

    • Yes
      158
    • No
      6
    • Undecided/I don't know yet
      4
  2. 2. How should it be implemented

    • After the MD.454 IVA (when added)
      10
    • After the MD.452 IIA
      1
    • After the MD.452 IIC
      8
    • After the Super Mystere B.2 (when added)
      112
    • After the MD.454 IVN (when added)
      0
    • Other (explain in comments)
      1
    • I don't want it
      4
    • I don't know yet
      21
    • As a SNECMA Atar 9B researchable modification for the B.2
      11
  3. 3. Which BR should it be at?

    • 9.7
      54
    • 10.0
      62
    • 10.3
      6
    • 10.7
      3
    • 11.0
      7
    • I don't know yet
      25
    • I don't want it
      6
    • Other (explain in comments)
      5


I think this would be the perfect French counterpart for the MiG-19. It was a little bit faster in top speed at altitude but had a worse rate of climb (by about 30 m/s). This is just great because early supersonic jets that didn't go far much after the sound barrier (like the MiG-19 and F-100) are not very common, so not only this would give the French a proper counterpart for early supersonic jet battles it would also give more diversity in them.

 

How does this differ from the production B.2 variant? A more powerful engine, giving it 200+ km/h of top speed at altitude and a much higher climb rate (the B.2 had 89 m/s with afterburner, the B.4 had 150 m/s). A new wing sweep at 48 degrees also.

 

Great news for French aviation and jet fans :DD

@pieve did a good job at writing the history of the Super Mystere. Since the B.4 is a small upgrade in terms of how it was changed from the B.2 there isn't much history on it.

 

Quick overview:

 

supermystereb2-10.jpg


 

Spoiler

 

The Dassault Super Mystère B.4 is an upgrade over the production and first French supersonic jet, the Super Mystère B.2, incorporating a much more powerful, the SNECMA Atar 9B in addition to more fuel giving it superior range and a new wing sweep. However, it remained in prototype stage with only two known to exist.

 

Related image

 

 

 

History, design and development:

 

Image result for super mystere b.4


 

Spoiler

 

Super Mystere B.2 is a multipurpose fighter developed by the French company Dassault. 

 

The continuation of the line of successful fighters "Hurricane" and "Mister" of the French company General Avions Marsel Dassault (GAMD) was the first production Western European supersonic aircraft Super Mystere B.2. 

 

The prototype took to the air on March 2, 1955. During 1957-59. 180 examples were produced, most of which entered service with the French Air Force. In 1958-60, Israelis received 24 new aircraft, and in early 1967. - 11 more machines that were in use (according to other sources - 7).

 

The latest modification of the aircraft of this family, called the Super Mystere B.4 , due to the acceptance into serial production of the Mirage III aircraft, did not go beyond the creation of two prototypes. The B.4 aircraft differed from the B.2 in a more powerful engine and were considered as prototype aircraft designed to establish record results. In February 1958, the maximum flight speed was reached on them, corresponding to M = 1.4. The B.4 also had increased range.

 

Related image

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cockpit:

 

Spoiler

 

Image result for super mystere  cockpit

supermystereb2-5.jpg

 

 

 

Internal Components:

 

Spoiler

The only difference is the engine and more fuel

supermystereb2-2.gif

 

 

 

Specifications 

 

Related image


 

Spoiler

 

Dassault Super Mystère B.4

 

Related image

 

General Characteristics

 

First flight: February 1958

Status: Prototype

Role: Multipurpose jet fighter

Number built: 2

Crew: 1

Length: 14 m (46 ft)

Wingspan: 10.5 m (34.4 ft)

Wing area: 35 m² (376.7 ft²)

Height: 4.2 m (13.78 ft)

Empty weight: 7,000 kg (15,432 lbs)

Loaded weight: 10,000 kg (22,046 lbs)

Max. takeoff weight: 12,000 kg (26,455 lbs)

Powerplant: 1 x SNECMA Atar 9B afterburning turbojet

  • without afterburner: 4,250.1772 kgf (41.68 kN, 9,370 lbf)
  • with afterburner: 6,000 kgf (58.84 kN, 13,227.758 lbf)

 

Performance

 

Maximum speed: 

  • At sea level: 1,100+ km/h (683.5+ mph, 594+ kts) (with & without full power)
  • At 11,000 m (36,089 ft): 1,487 km/h (924 mph, 803 kts) (full power)

Never-exceed speed: Mach 1.4 (1,728 km/h, 1,074 mph, 933 kts)

Rate of climb: 150 m/s (492 ft/s) (full power)

Time to 11,000 m (36,089 ft): 2.84 min

Service ceiling: 16,750 m (54,954 ft)

Range: 

  • Normal: 1,100 km (683.5 mi, 594 nmi)
  • Max: 2,300 km (1,429 mi, 1,242 nmi)

Wing loading:

  • Empty weight: 200 kg/m (40.96 lb/ft²)
  • Loaded weight: 285.714286 kg/m (58.52 lb/ft²)
  • Max. takeoff weight: 342.857143 kg/m (70.22 lb/ft²)

Thrust/weight (without afterburner):

  • Empty weight: 0.60
  • Loaded weight: 0.425
  • Max. takeoff weight: 0.35

Thrust/weight (with afterburner):

  • Empty weight: 0.85
  • Loaded weight: 0.60
  • Max. takeoff weight: 0.50

 

Armament

 

Guns: 2 x 30mm DEFA 552 revolver cannons (150 rpg, 300 rds total)

Missiles: 

  • 2 x AS-30L air-to-ground missiles

or

  • 2 x Rafael Shafrir-1 infrared-homing air-to-air missiles

Rockets: 2× Matra rocket pods with 18× SNEB 68 mm unguided rockets each

Bombs: 2 x 500 kg (2 x 1,100 lbs)

 

Image result for super mystere b.4

 

 

 

Sources/References:

 

Related image
 

Spoiler

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Super_Mystère

Aviation and Time. Alexander Kotlobovsky . O
Aviafrance. Un siecle d'aviation francaise. Dassault Super Mystere B2 
Mystere Edmund Tsikhosh. Supersonic Aircraft 

The Dassault Ouragan, Mystere, & Super Mystere Klassiker der Luftfahrt.H.Redemann, K. Schwarz. 

Einsteig ins Jet-Zeitalter DocAvia. Jean Cuny. 

Les chasseurs Dassault Ouragans, Mysteres et Super Mysteres Avions. 

Roland de Narbonne. Un "Mystere" difficile au clair Jean-Jacques Petit.Dassault "Super Mystere B2" 

 

Edited by EpicBlitzkrieg87
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Open for discussion. :salute:

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SMB4 wouldn't have been equipped with Rafael Shafrir missiles had it entered the French Air Force, rather Aim-9s or maybe Matra R511

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It is needed indeed. B2 will be perhaps even worse than F100 (which served the French Air Force in equal number). Maybe I should make a proper suggestion for the latter.

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It had a new 48° swept wing compare to the smb2 45° swept wing ;)

https://www.aviationsmilitaires.net/v2/base/view/Variant/8321.html

https://www.aviationsmilitaires.net/v2/base/view/Model/1046.html

 

Just saw you already talk about it too, very nice !!

Great work Blitz, I wanted to make the suggestion too but didn't had the climb and other data

+1

Edited by Trotrodor
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On 09/01/2019 at 22:03, Trotrodor said:

It had a new 48° swept wing compare to the smb2 45° swept wing ;)

https://www.aviationsmilitaires.net/v2/base/view/Variant/8321.html

https://www.aviationsmilitaires.net/v2/base/view/Model/1046.html

 

Just saw you already talk about it too, very nice !!

Great work Blitz, I wanted to make the suggestion too but didn't had the climb and other data

+1

 

Thank you :) yes I know. I mentioned the wing sweep part. 

On 09/01/2019 at 21:55, Functor said:

It is needed indeed. B2 will be perhaps even worse than F100 (which served the French Air Force in equal number). Maybe I should make a proper suggestion for the latter.

 

Yes, a lot worse. In real life the F-100D had 20+ m/s rate of climb of advantage over it and was much much faster in top speed at altitude.

 

On 09/01/2019 at 21:32, FouManchou said:

SMB4 wouldn't have been equipped with Rafael Shafrir missiles had it entered the French Air Force, rather Aim-9s or maybe Matra R511

 

I know that, but it had Shafrir missiles anyway 

Edited by EpicBlitzkrieg87
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I have other information for: Ouragan, Mystere II , Mystere III, Mystere 4 and its variants and SMB.2, it's big(~500 page)but i don't know where should i post this doc. Should i make a thread with only documentation? Or should i cut the doc and post on each thread with the affected aircraft? Sadly Mystere IV and Mystere III threads are already lock, and i don't know if gaijin will take look at documentation for plane that is already in the game and whose thread is not a bug report (like Mystere II or Barougan/Ouragan threads)

 

 

Spoiler

1-page-001.thumb.jpg.678a57c12fd19bcefce1-page-002.thumb.jpg.5534307a2631b2c5a5f

 Legende:

-Standard aircraft

-prototype or pre series

-Only project

 

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9 hours ago, Yukichi said:

I have other information for: Ouragan, Mystere II , Mystere III, Mystere 4 and its variants and SMB.2, it's big(~500 page)but i don't know where should i post this doc. Should i make a thread with only documentation? Or should i cut the doc and post on each thread with the affected aircraft? Sadly Mystere IV and Mystere III threads are already lock, and i don't know if gaijin will take look at documentation for plane that is already in the game and whose thread is not a bug report (like Mystere II or Barougan/Ouragan threads)

 

 

  Hide contents

1-page-001.thumb.jpg.678a57c12fd19bcefce1-page-002.thumb.jpg.5534307a2631b2c5a5f

 Legende:

-Standard aircraft

-prototype or pre series

-Only project

 

Well post it anyway I think that many will be pleased to read it and do some bug report on those plane

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Twin-Ouragan:

They were thinking about build one or two aircraft but they abandonned the project on September 1954

This project only reach the state of wind tunnels test. It should use the Atar 101 E engine with afterburner.

Spoiler

twinouragan-1.thumb.jpg.ade1094e6b542f2dtwinouragan-2.thumb.jpg.f4db2504788ba7e3

 

1 hour ago, Nicolaser said:

Well post it anyway I think that many will be pleased to read it and do some bug report on those plane

I will do, i asked to CokeSpray and he told me to post what i have on this part of the forum here

So i will post all i have that still not locked on concerned thread (like, Mirage, SMB 2 or variants, or if people do new suggestion for variants of Mystere IV). And for other plane that is already on game or "passed for consideration" i will a post a thread on the other section of the forum here

Edited by Yukichi
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11 hours ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

Thank you very much :) and if only I could understand French

if i have time this weekend, i'll try to translate some of it

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7 hours ago, Nicolaser said:

Well basically it says what they  change on the airframe to integrate an atar 9, add some fuel tank and a new radar

 

The changes drastically improved the plane to the point it would be a better plane than the F-100 to counter the MiG-19 in the game :) and supersonic jets that are not much further than mach 1 capable are rare. All nations jumped to Mach 2 very quickly.

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11 hours ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

The changes drastically improved the plane to the point it would be a better plane than the F-100 to counter the MiG-19 in the game :) and supersonic jets that are not much further than mach 1 capable are rare. All nations jumped to Mach 2 very quickly.

Yeah I say in short what they change, the biggest change is the atar9 St 1 and atar 9,St 2 

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14 hours ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

The changes drastically improved the plane to the point it would be a better plane than the F-100 to counter the MiG-19 in the game :) and supersonic jets that are not much further than mach 1 capable are rare. All nations jumped to Mach 2 very quickly.

 

To be fair, F-100 already seems better for some than MiG-19: Yes, you have less climb and acceleration, but flying it carefully on the deck ensures untouchability, and the MiG is incapable of such perfect high speed aim and will never permit so much spraying.

 

I agree though that having only B.2 in game would be a travesty and the usual mystère all over again sort of experience, especially if they go ahead and introduce the F-104 (for Germans; giving them only the MiG-19S would be a very bad PR move) at less than 11.0 BR. 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Functor said:

To be fair, F-100 already seems better for some than MiG-19: Yes, you have less climb and acceleration, but flying it carefully on the deck ensures untouchability, and the MiG is incapable of such perfect high speed aim and will never permit so much spraying.

 

 

It's not as capable as the MiG-19 in the air superiority role, it can only run. And if it gets its missing thrust it will climb best at 109 m/s whereas we know the MiG-19's 180 m/s ROC. 

 

For sure you can keep running to be untouched but that's for defense, for offense which is air superiority you need the other flight performance capabilities.

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I made a translation. I'm not a native speaker, don't be surprise if you find many inconsistency in my english

 

if @Trotrodor do a new translation i will delete mine.

@EpicBlitzkrieg87 I will post tomorrow the documentation of Mystere IV A/B, Mystere III on a new thread in the rubric of Historical discussion (if i remember you did a suggestion for these aircraft).

For thoses who want to check, want to see or do some bug report, i will post the Ouragan, Mystere II A/C.

All documentation of Super Mystere are available on the thread of Super Mystere B.2. I will edit mine because link seems to be not worked.

 

The translation

Spoiler

The Super Mystere B4 all weathers fighters (Page 386)

 

In March 1955 while the SM B 1 was only performing its first flights, Dassault proposed a variant more powerfull, equiped with the Atar 9 engine given for 6 ton of thrust with AB , in stage 2 of his development. There was obvious concern to ensure the welding between the SM B 2, on the eve of order, and the Mirage in progress of development. It seems for the rest, that it was perfectly conceivable to motorized a part for B 2, after the completion of development of engine, just as for Mystere IVA which passed from the engine Tay to the engine Verdon while the series was still in progress. It would have been possible to keept wings, tailplane, landing gear and the front airframe until the plane frame n°25. Hovewer, it was neccesary to increase the section of air intake of 10% of it surface from the plane frame n°19, and to redraw completely the rear airframe from the plane frame n°25.  
The engine was about 100 kg heavier than its predecessor, was longer about 0.25 m with diameter increased from the tuyere of afterburner.
In view of difference, it was decided to give up the removable rear airframe and increase the diameter of the new rear airframe in one part to allow:
-A better ventilation and thermal protection, critics on the SM B 2.
-A mounting of engine by threading on rails. (It remained fix by its laterals trunnions, with "centrering link rod"(biellette de centrage) in the front and "suspension link rod" (biellette de suspension) of the tuyere, in the back)
The new drawing allowed to increase the capacity of fuel, allowing insert 2 flexible containers below the jet engine (260 L, additional)
The airframe section became pratically circular at the level of leading edge of the horizontal tailplane and resulted in a cylindrical rump ( and no more in a cap like the SM B 2) of 0.96 m of diameter. Assuming the lenght of the airframe alone was increase of 16 cm compared to the airframe of SM B 2, the lenght overall  of the aircraft the same as the latter (except the nose radar): Tail fin and horizontal tailplane remained unchanged. The new construct of the airframe in one part allowed, despite the implementation of new tanks, to reduce to 40 kg the weight of the structure. However the superior mass of the engine give an exceed empty weight at 60 kg compared to the aircraft equipped with the Atar 101 G.
The interceptor  proposed was named "Tout-Temps" (all-weather). Due to the assembly of radar and a "shooting calculator" (Radar Gunsight?). This package, developped by the Electronic department of l'Usine Dassault d'Argenteuil, include a "Cassegrain" antenna about 25 cm of diameter sheltered in a conical radome replacing to the "Derveaux" rangefinder of antenna which exceed about 0.30 m from the front lip of the air intake. The capacity of research was limited in site and azimuth. Named "ANTIGONE" it closely related to the "ANCILLA" developped at the same time by Dassault  used for the interceptor "Gerfaut" from Nord-Aviation. Theses radars were ancestor of "ALADIN" and "AIDA" as well as the electronic head of certain Air to Air MATRA.
This project of interceptor was also received the proposition to carry as primary armement 2 MATRA semi-active, with electromagnetic head, at point 2 (pylon #2?) of the wings. The cannons would have been kept but the bay for the rocket launcher replaced by a removable tank. The carrying of droping tank was planned for the point 1 (pylon #1 of the aircraft?)
With the engine stage 2 (6 000 KGP with AB), with 2 800 l of internal fuel, 200 shells and 2 missiles, the weight at the starting up was estimated at 9 700 kg. We expected a climb at 40 000 ft in 3 min 50 and a maximal speed at level, in clean configuration, at M = 1,2. The abandonment of the project was inevitable after the reduction of quantity ordered of Super-Mysteres and mainly because of the delay was evaluated precisily to get an engine operational .

 

 

The Super Mystere B 4 in a test rig

 

The project SM B 4 reappared on October 1956 when a test rig was neccesary for the new engine Atar 9.
Two aircraft of first 150 SM B2 series were "released" of market and passed a new command with credit of the DTI in July 1957. It were the Super Mystere n°7 and 10. Except every military equipment the previous description of SM B 4 "tout temps" apply on both test rig done.
Max capacity of fuel reached 2 800l, so distribued:
-920l. in 16 tanks of the wings aircraft ( initial wings of B.2, no modify)
-430l. in central plan (removable containers)
-800l. in central tank of airframe (bigger than the B.2)
-390l. in tank bay
-260l. in the rear airframe (2 news tanks)
which had to be added 2 droppable tank under wings (625 or 825l )
With the partial internal tank, and a ballast reestablishing the front center, the weight at the starting up reached 9250 kg.
We planned one motorisation in two time: Atar 9 of "Stage 1" (4050/5400 kgp) and after the engine of "stage 2"which was close to the Atar 9 B (4250 kgp and 6000 kgp with afterbuner static thrust, in test rig)
The climb to 12 000m was respectively 3 min 40 and 3 min 10, for a consumption of 800l.
With the reactor "stage 2", the SM B 4 was capable of M = 1,01 at level of sea, M=1,10 at 20 000 ft, M=1,25 at 40 000 ft and M= 1,05 at 50 000  ft.

 

 

The SM B 4-01.

Piloted by Muselli, taked off from Villaroche the 9 February 1958. This aircraft equiped with the engine stage 1, involve the equipement of SM B 2 serie and the modication of structure of these (the horn and parachute braking). The weight at starting up was  8845 kg.
The Afterburner wasn't used during the first flight; no difference of quality flight was noted compared to the SM B 2; the acceleration was superior, thanks to the engine considered as "good".
During the 2nd flight (weight with full loaded and test parts: 9565 kg) the plane reached M=0.975 at 10000 ft, full throttle at 8420 tr/min
Always dry the plane, in climbing, reached:
10 000 ft in 2 mn 16,
20 000 ft in 3 mn 34,
30 000 ft in 5 min 04,
40 000 ft in 9 min 55,
The levels showed a dry plane a lit bit less performing than the SM B 2. No anomalie was reported while testing  in load factor or in supersonic dive.
The engine slightly vibrated at all rpm but was well stabilized.
It's was at the 7th flight, the 12th March 1958, that Musellie used the afterburner. The aircraft didn't held on braking, at fixed point.
The 8th flight was dedicated to a incrasing power, standing start:
Take off in 15 s.
Climbing at :
10 000 ft in 1 mn 31.
20 000 ft in 2 mn 12 (the AB was reduce to eliminate the rumbling of the engine)
30 000 ft in 3 mn  08,
40 000 ft in 4 mn 37,
This altitude was reached at M = 0,99 after consumption of 900 l.  It took 1 mn more than expected but the AB wasn't used a max.
At 37 000 ft the plane reached M = 1,06 in level, afterburner reduced, then M= 1,20 with slightly dive at 25 000 ft. The plane was judge very "pure". (?)
The CEV, then the SNECMA, took the plane in charge at the 11th flight. The adjusment continued at Istres, until an accident apparear the 15 October 1958 during its 48th flight: runway excursion and no more primary landing gear.
The wings and airframe was damaged which enforce repair in factory.
After  reflight in the hand of Glavany, the 16th April 1959, it was return to SNECMA where it continued its carier until 1961, year where we lost its trace.

 

 

The SM B 4-02, was strictly similar to the 01. It flight with Boudier, at Villaroche, the 15th October 1958 and was sent to Istres as soon as its second flight. Also equiped with the engine stage 1, it had identical performance than the 01.
A climbing to 40 000 ft was done in 4 min 1 s, at M=0,93 with afterburner full throttle, for a consumption of 1090 l.
On its 8th flight the plane  received the stage 2 reactor of 01 (during repair of 01), with which it reached M= 1.18 in stabilized level at 40 700 ft, then m= 1.30 at 25 000 ft.
Very pure the aircraft must revealead an excellent test rig.  It flight intensely, in order to clear the Atar 9 programm, for which the Mirage III A-010 was going to join one year later.
In 1960, it was deciding to study the effect of rocket fire on the reactor. It was mounted, at Cazaux, in December of the same year, some "dampers" or "flamethrower tube". These were 3 tubes obliquely  mounted of air intake and contained some mass powder charge and variable composition. Flame and hot gaz caused by the launching were ejected un a little in front of the air intake perpendiculary of tube.
After a flight was done without discover anomaly due to this installation of "shot" in altitude took place in the first semester of 1961. They demonstrated the susceptibility of Atar 9 for absorbing gaz. It was possible to study  the problem of canon fire of Mirage III. The activity seems to have stopped in the end of 1961, whoever reformed came in 1961.

 

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  • 1 month later...

Hopefully we will have a devblog of this one soon

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 I don't know if it's because the name of the plane of the Dev-server is wrong, or if it's really the case, but apparently, they chose the MD.460 prototype, equipped with the experimental Atar 104 engine. If that's really the case, the performances of the plane wouldn't even come close, neither to the SMB2, nor the SMB4.

 

Spoiler

STREAM+3.png

 

Edited by Arghail
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1 hour ago, Arghail said:

 I don't know if it's because the name of the plane of the Dev-server is wrong, or if it's really the case, but apparently, they chose the MD.460 prototype, equipped with the experimental Atar 104 engine. If that's really the case, the performances of the plane wouldn't even come close, neither to the SMB2, nor the SMB4.

 

  Hide contents

STREAM+3.png

 

 

How many tabs do you have open?!

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