Conte_Baracca

Lack of equipment in Tier III

Tier III for Italy is a mess. 

The Good:

the Breda 501 is easy to strafe to death with aircraft, but otherwise is an amazing vehicle that combine to make this a good solid 4.0 SPG.

The M4 Tipo IC is just as potent as it's British Cousin and is an excellent 4.7 tank.  The reason it is only "good" is because it is literally the only ground vehicle at that BR and has to carry the lineup on its own.

 

The Meh:

The 105/25 M43 and the 75/46 M43 are both decent SPGs but they are both higher BR than their contemporaries.  The 105/25 is higher BR than the StuH 42 G, the 3 inch gun carrier, and the SU-122.  Which are all arguably as good or better than the 105/25.  The 75/46 is a higher BR than the StuG III G, the M10, and the Achilles.  All more capable vehicles as they have access to projectiles with better Armor Pen, more mobility, bigger crews, and equal or better Armor Protection.

 

The Ugly:

The M42 is terrible.  It's "turret" has no Armor on the FRONT and  it can be wiped out with medium machine guns, the magazine capacity for the cannons is terrible and the load time to replace them exacerbates the small magazine size.  It's slow, has poor armor "aside from the zero armor on the front of the turret" and far inferior to its contemporaries (BTR-152, Wirblewind, and Crusader MkII AA are all much better vehicles.)

The 75/34 M43.  It has the same gun as the P40, which is at 3.3.  Whilst it sits WAAAY up at 4.0.  This is preposterous.  The P40 has a TURRET, more effective armor, AND almost 20% more HP per ton.  This vehicle might not even belong at 3.3 LET ALONE the ridiculous 4.0 BR.

There are ZERO Italian vehicles at BR 5.0, 5.3, 5.7, or 6.0.  There are only single vehicles at BR 4.3, and 4.7. And the 4.3 vehicle is clearly over BR.  So, essentially, Italy is non-competitive from 4.3 to 6.0.  That is a HUGE gap and the biggest problem with the Italian Tree.

 

The Recommendation: as P.43 variants have been pulled off the table (whilst the Tiger II 10.5, Ho-Ri Production, and the Panther II soldier on I might add) Clearly Italy is going to have to import vehicles in from other trees.  Pz.IV H (or G sources conflict), Pz. IIIN, T-34 76,  and additional Sherman models (Italy used the M4 , M4A1 , M4A2 and M4A4 in versions equipped with all American armaments.).  Honestly I would like to see multiple Italian only vehicles, (like the clever use of the Mk Ic), but I'd rather have lineups to build around my unique Italian vehicles, and I'd rather play Italy at every BR possible.

 

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Pretty much agree with everything. There is a large gap in the tree that needs filling, and I can't think of any vehicles that would fit there other than P43. Maybe Panzer IV? 

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I found Italy's 4.0-4.7 lineup to be quite strong. The 75/46 M43 at 4.3 punches far above its weight and performs fine in my 4.7 lineup. The 75/34 M43 is awful at its br though and doesn't belong at 4.0.

 

If anything needs fixing, it's the tier IV vehicles.

 

- M36B1 does not belong at 6.3 and should be equal with the M36 Jackson in the U.S. tree at 5.7

- The Fiat 6614 needs a decrease in reload speed

- the M26A1 needs to be at 6.3 with the U.S. M26, with or without the APCR shell.

 

Pre-production variants of the P26/40 coud be used to fill tier III and 4.7-5.7 could be filled with the P43 and P43 BIS.

 

Overall, the tree is fun. It just needs BR tweaks and a few vehicles.

 

Edited by Silent870
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75/46 is more than good at 4.3, and of course it's better than Stug IIIG and M10 due to armor and smaller size.(BTW I do much better with 75/46 and Breda 501 at 4.7 than with Italian Sherman, which has nothing good except gun).

105/25 has better gun than StuH and Su-122, 3-inch..is not even a counterpart).

But whatever, I think we should stop this stupid discussion about BRs, because it's useless and too subjective.

About more foreign vehicles in the regular tree - just NO, only in the premium. There are still a lot of Italian vehicles to add into the tree.

There will be a gap from 5.0 to 5.7, it's normal and it doesn't affect anything.

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5 hours ago, SergenteA said:

Modified Shermans and Chaffes and other stuff like that.

 

The cool thing is that you could team them up with Pz.IVs and T-34s...and build a crazy lineup.

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4 hours ago, Silent870 said:

I found Italy's 4.0-4.7 lineup to be quite strong. The 75/46 M43 at 4.3 punches far above its weight and performs fine in my 4.7 lineup. The 75/34 M43 is awful at its br though and doesn't belong at 4.0.

 

If anything needs fixing, it's the tier IV vehicles.

 

- M36B1 does not belong at 6.3 and should be equal with the M36 Jackson in the U.S. tree at 5.7

- The Fiat 6614 needs a decrease in reload speed

- the M26A1 needs to be at 6.3 with the U.S. M26, with or without the APCR shell.

 

Pre-production variants of the P26/40 coud be used to fill tier III and 4.7-5.7 could be filled with the P43 and P43 BIS.

 

Overall, the tree is fun. It just needs BR tweaks and a few vehicles.

 

Oh yeah.  There's another thread on this.  but I agree completely.

The M26A1 is better than the M26, but the T-26E1-1 is much, much, much better than the M26A1 and it is at 6.3.  The M26 should go to 6.0 and the M26A1 should go to 6.3.

The Fiat also has terrible traverse speed.  I don't know how they generated the number, it looks like a manually launched setup, so there should probably be a crewman manning it and improvements to reload and traverse to compensate.

The M36B1 has a better gun than the M36, but the M36 has better HP per ton AND a higher top speed.  The M36B1 has better Hull Armor, but it is a bigger target and not so much more armor to make much of a difference at that BR.  No reason the M36B1 should be at 6.3, it would be fine at 5.7 and still probably over BR at 6.0.

 

The pre-production variants of the P26/40 belong in Tier II, and we've been told over and over again that we aren't getting the P43.

 

I agree that the Tree is really good, some BR tweaking (like all new trees) and Tier I, II, IV, V, and VI are excellent.  Good solid fun all around.  Especially at 3.3, 6.7 and 7.7 BRs.

 

1 hour ago, _Condottiero_ said:

75/46 is more than good at 4.3, and of course it's better than Stug IIIG and M10 due to armor and smaller size.(BTW I do much better with 75/46 and Breda 501 at 4.7 than with Italian Sherman, which has nothing good except gun).

I simply disagree, but I understand that this is perhaps a subjective argument.

1 hour ago, _Condottiero_ said:

105/25 has better gun than StuH and Su-122, 3-inch..is not even a counterpart).

I know that the 105/25 gun has slightly more pen with APHE and HEAT, but it doesn't seem like enough to justify the difference in BR to me.  I know the 3-inch isn't a direct counterpart, but I would argue that it's collection of capabilities is of the same value.  However, that is a subjective point, I grant that.

1 hour ago, _Condottiero_ said:

But whatever, I think we should stop this stupid discussion about BRs, because it's useless and too subjective.

About more foreign vehicles in the regular tree - just NO, only in the premium. There are still a lot of Italian vehicles to add into the tree.

We've been told no P.43 or P.43 bis.  So I'm not sure what vehicles you are talking about.

1 hour ago, _Condottiero_ said:

There will be a gap from 5.0 to 5.7, it's normal and it doesn't affect anything.

Except that it ISN'T normal, literally every other tree can make competent lineups in that range.  And, most importantly, the Germans have an excellent lineup at 5.7 and I would like to play my Italians with my friends when they want to play germany.

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31 minutes ago, Conte_Baracca said:

We've been told no P.43 or P.43 bis.  So I'm not sure what vehicles you are talking about.

Except that it ISN'T normal, literally every other tree can make competent lineups in that range.  And, most importantly, the Germans have an excellent lineup at 5.7 and I would like to play my Italians with my friends when they want to play germany.

if we are talking about III rank: guntrucks: 102/35 Fiat 634N, 90/53 (Breda 52, Lancia 3RO, Breda 51), Semovente 75/46 and 90/53 prototypes, may be some postwar modifications(such as Priest with 105/34, M4A4 76/52).

For the other ranks you can look at my tree:

https://live.warthunder.com/post/755908/en/

And this thread:

 

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I think the list is as follows:

Tier II

M16 

P.40 prototypes (less effective guns)

Tier III

Pz.IV (G, H, I think they had both, but whatever they had) 4.0 and/or 4.3

T-34 76 (Premium captured vehicle) 4.0

M4A2 75mm at 4.0 

M4A1 76mm at 4.7

M4A2 76MM at 5.0

M4A3 76mm at 5.3

Tiger I at 5.7 (Italy trained on one)

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they need to copy all wot italian papertanks from all the p43 variants upto the p44. i dont want more usa tanks in the italy tech tree

Edited by Askenase
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5 hours ago, Askenase said:

they need to copy all wot italian papertanks from all the p43 variants upto the p44. i dont want more usa tanks in the italy tech tree

I mean... I'm down.

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I’m guessing we would have received the P.43 and P.43 BIS in the tree four years ago if it was introduced then but Gaijin is moving away from paper vehicles and both variants of the P.43 basically were.  I know the P.43 had a small wooden mock-up but that was basically the extent of its production, the rest was paper specifications. 

 

I’m thinking we are going to have to fill Tier III with German and American vehicles to give it some filler but a lot of players also complain about lended vehicles. 

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1 hour ago, PlymouthVoyager said:

I’m thinking we are going to have to fill Tier III with German and American vehicles... 

...or do what the real life italians did: use tier I and II to fill tier III and IV gaps :D

 

- "Sir! T-34 and KV-1 attacking our positions!"

- "Don't panic Mario. The Supreme Command gave us all the required countermeasures. Send out the L6/40 and 47/32 L40 platoons and alert the cavalry squadrons!"

 

Jokes aside, this scenario really happened. Multiple times sadly...

Edited by Menarrosto
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I'm not expert in tanks but if I have to pick a foreign tank in italian service to fill a gap at rank 3 I would go with M4A2 (75mm)  because it is a general purpose tank that sits in a BR that is half way between P40 and M4 Tipo IC (Firefly).

If there is an italian modification for it just to make it look a bit different from US counterpart then it's even better.

Edited by cfracas
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On 14/01/2019 at 10:52, cfracas said:

I'm not expert in tanks but if I have to pick a foreign tank in italian service to fill a gap at rank 3 I would go with M4A2 (75mm)  because it is a general purpose tank that sits in a BR that is half way between P40 and M4 Tipo IC (Firefly).

If there is an italian modification for it just to make it look a bit different from US counterpart then it's even better.

I would love to pair this with a pzIV G.  Cool lineup.  WIth Breda gun trucks and semoventes  would be cool

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On 14/01/2019 at 14:41, PlymouthVoyager said:

I’m guessing we would have received the P.43 and P.43 BIS in the tree four years ago if it was introduced then but Gaijin is moving away from paper vehicles and both variants of the P.43 basically were.  I know the P.43 had a small wooden mock-up but that was basically the extent of its production, the rest was paper specifications. 

 

I’m thinking we are going to have to fill Tier III with German and American vehicles to give it some filler but a lot of players also complain about lended vehicles. 

 

or as it was originally intended and overhelmingly supported. Hungarian tanks

I dont know about you but having the copy pasta GE and US tanks does not make an enjoyable tech tree

another solution could be the autobinladas but those are trucks with guns that will be destroyed by mg fire.....

Edited by Jacky95
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1 hour ago, Jacky95 said:

 

or as it was originally intended and overhelmingly supported. Hungarian tanks

I dont know about you but having the copy pasta GE and US tanks does not make an enjoyable tech tree

another solution could be the autobinladas but those are trucks with guns that will be destroyed by mg fire.....

You won't fill anything by Hungarian tanks, because they are not more than 4.0 tanks. And addition of vehicles which have never been used by Italy into Italian Tree has no sense. 

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1 hour ago, _Condottiero_ said:

You won't fill anything by Hungarian tanks, because they are not more than 4.0 tanks. And addition of vehicles which have never been used by Italy into Italian Tree has no sense. 

hence it was called itallian-hungarian and not italian

but whatever just noted an option that was well supported by Italians too and made the Italian faction a possibility

right now the Itallian ground tech tree is crap...which was foreseeable since with the big nations of ww2 the candidates of good all around tech trees stops, hence the idea was brought forth to make a good tech tree with moultiple factions.

But i really dont care. Gaijin will do what Gaijin does. Japan 2.0(...or would it be france 2.0..hmm) just with paper tanks and semovente spam...sprinkled with some amurican muscle

Edited by Jacky95
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On 06/04/2019 at 12:11, _Condottiero_ said:

because they are not more than 4.0 tanks.

From toldis to turan III, panther, prototype Tas, tiger I

Thats not"only" 4.0 tanks and no paper tanks

+ 2 TD's(one with at rockets) and a 2 trucks with 2 kinds of at missiles.

+ Nimrod with fin stabilised shaped charge penetrating 180mm of armor

+ a few good planes like an me210 ca-1 with 2x20mm, 1x40mm, 6 rockets

Edited by Jacky95
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2 minutes ago, Jacky95 said:

From toldis to turan III, panther, prototype Tas, tiger I

Thats not"only" 4.0 tanks and no paper tanks

TAS is in the same situation as P.43, the best Turan is just slower Pz IV. 

Then you are talking about Panthers and Tigers...

Aren't these words yours?

On 06/04/2019 at 18:43, Jacky95 said:

I dont know about you but having the copy pasta GE and US tanks does not make an enjoyable tech tree

I don't understand what you are fighting for, if you don't like Italian vehicles just don't play this tree...and Japanese and French. Play German vehicles, there are a lot of Tigers and Panthers.

If you just want to see Hungarian and Romanian vehicles, so take it easy, sooner or later we will see them in WT.

In my opinion it's much better to accomodate them in GTT, because it makes much more sense.

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12 minutes ago, _Condottiero_ said:

TAS is in the same situation as P.43, the best Turan is just slower Pz IV. 

Then you are talking about Panthers and Tigers...

Aren't these words yours?

I don't understand what you are fighting for, if you don't like Italian vehicles just don't play this tree...and Japanese and French. Play German vehicles, there are a lot of Tigers and Panthers.

If you just want to see Hungarian and Romanian vehicles, so take it easy, sooner or later we will see them in WT.

In my opinion it's much better to accomodate them in GTT, because it makes much more sense.

1. Iam not fighting for anything. Only having a debate which seems alien to WT players....

2.the Tas was a built prototype with a mild steel and armor plate versions. The armor plate version was waiting on the third 7.5 cm gun to be produced..thats further in development than the italian medium gaijin refused since that is closer to paper than to prototype.

3. Hungary used the tiger and the panther. Itally did not.

4.just a sidenote and Iam not 100% sure but I remember reading that the turan had better terrain cepabilities than the pz 4 tanks...

Sorry for the spelling. Iam typing on a mobile

5. Having 2 ge tanks is not = with spamming the whole medium line with ge tanks

Edited by Jacky95
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15 hours ago, Jacky95 said:

1. Iam not fighting for anything. Only having a debate which seems alien to WT players....

2.the Tas was a built prototype with a mild steel and armor plate versions. The armor plate version was waiting on the third 7.5 cm gun to be produced..thats further in development than the italian medium gaijin refused since that is closer to paper than to prototype.

3. Hungary used the tiger and the panther. Itally did not.

4.just a sidenote and Iam not 100% sure but I remember reading that the turan had better terrain cepabilities than the pz 4 tanks...

Sorry for the spelling. Iam typing on a mobile

5. Having 2 ge tanks is not = with spamming the whole medium line with ge tanks

Let's be honest...The Nimrod, the Csaba, the Zrinyi, theTuran I, II, and III, The Toldi I, and II, and the Heja in the Airplane Tech Tree..would all be fantastic fun and good additions to the Italian Tree.  Throw in the Tiger and the Panther as copypasta.  But, again, I believe the Italian community wants to keep their tree simply Italian.  I understand this.

 

However, As an American who is bored to tears at the thought of playing yet another American Tree, I believe that a "minor Axis" tree with Italy, Hungary and Romania (T-26/37mm, Vanatorule R35, TACAM T-60 and R-2, with various IAR 80's and 81's in the air tree) would add plenty of unique vehicles along with copy pasta Pz-IVH, Sherman M4A1 76, M4a2 76, and M4A3 76, Tiger, and Panther, which would make the tree more complete.  I want to play all of the original vehicles and won't mind having some more solid copypasta to give the tree the depth it needs.

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There are still a lot of Italian gun-trucks that haven't been explored and these were decisive in many occasions during the African campaign.

 

I know, I know. Gun trucks aren't the answer. The Italian tree needs mediums and heavies, it's just that they didn't have any. Don't forget the Italians are out of World War Two by September 1943 and then the influx of US materiel begins, so they missed out on the hey-day of the WW2 heavy tank.

Also War Thunder has moved beyond being a Second World War game and lumping Hungary and Romania in with them no longer makes sense. The only reason Britain gets away with having Commonwealth vehicles is that post Second World War no Commonwealth country bar India I think had an indigenous tank, just variations on other people's tanks.

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17 hours ago, DeadlyTreadly said:

Also War Thunder has moved beyond being a Second World War game and lumping Hungary and Romania in with them no longer makes sense.

Hm interesting. When the Itallian-hungarian faction suggestion was made, wt already had many many post war tanks andit did not make anyone think there is a problem with it.

Could you elaborate on how it does not make sense?

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On 12/04/2019 at 08:31, DeadlyTreadly said:

There are still a lot of Italian gun-trucks that haven't been explored and these were decisive in many occasions during the African campaign.

Italy is already tank destroyer heavy, but I wouldn't mind seeing some of the better ones of these.  The Fiat is great.

On 12/04/2019 at 08:31, DeadlyTreadly said:

 

I know, I know. Gun trucks aren't the answer. The Italian tree needs mediums and heavies, it's just that they didn't have any. Don't forget the Italians are out of World War Two by September 1943 and then the influx of US materiel begins, so they missed out on the hey-day of the WW2 heavy tank.

There are some copy and paste options with American and German equipment (Pz IV H for Germany I believe) to be explored.  And I would not mind playing them too much. Better them than nothing.

On 12/04/2019 at 08:31, DeadlyTreadly said:

Also War Thunder has moved beyond being a Second World War game and lumping Hungary and Romania in with them no longer makes sense. The only reason Britain gets away with having Commonwealth vehicles is that post Second World War no Commonwealth country bar India I think had an indigenous tank, just variations on other people's tanks.

I disagree here.  Germany get's East German equipment.  Germany and Italy fight America and Britain when they were allies through NATO.  I see no problem with post WW2 and a minor Axis tree.  It would offer a lot of equipment for the higher tiers. Even some unique stuff through Romanian programs.

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