Conte_Baracca

Initial thoughts on BRs of Italian tanks

The Reserve tanks are better than some of the Tier I vehicles.  Specifically the L6 and the M11/39.  Perhaps the M11/39 and/or the L6/40 could replace the M13/40 Serie III.  Regardless, both of them should be BR 1.0 instead of 1.3.

 

The R3 T20 FA-HS is just too good for 3.3.  It should be a 4.7 as its rate of fire is pure murder for aircraft and it's speed makes it a terror on the battlefield.

 

The 75/34 M42 has the same gun as a P40 and is less well protected due to sloping issues.  It is clearly less capable than the P40 and should be BR 3.0

 

The 75/34 M43 may have better armor than the 75/34 M42 but the gun is outclassed at that BR.  It is essentially a Stug IIIA with better Armor.  It should be, at best 3.3

 

The M42 SPAA is the same BR as the Wirblewind and Crusader AA Mk II, but worse in every category except Armor Pen (equal to Wirble better than Crusader).  It should be 3.3 as it is pathetic at 3.7

 

The M26A1 has slightly better pen than the M26.  That is the only substantive difference.  The small increase in Armor Pen  is no reason for this to be at 6.7, it should reside at 6.3  Especially considering that the M26 feels over BR when compared to its brother the T26E1-1

 

The OF-40 is essentially an Italian Version of the Leopard I.  It has the same ammunition as the Leopard I and the M60, with the same basic speed and armor as the Leopard I.  It should share the same BR of 7.7

 

I would love some comments.  

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Conte_Baracca said:

The Reserve tanks are better than some of the Tier I vehicles.  Specifically the L6 and the M11/39.  Perhaps the M11/39 and/or the L6/40 could replace the M13/40 Serie III.  Regardless, both of them should be BR 1.0 instead of 1.3.

 

The R3 T20 FA-HS is just too good for 3.3.  It should be a 4.7 as its rate of fire is pure murder for aircraft and it's speed makes it a terror on the battlefield.

 

The 75/34 M42 has the same gun as a P40 and is less well protected due to sloping issues.  It is clearly less capable than the P40 and should be BR 3.0

 

The 75/34 M43 may have better armor than the 75/34 M42 but the gun is outclassed at that BR.  It is essentially a Stug IIIA with better Armor.  It should be, at best 3.3

 

The M42 SPAA is the same BR as the Wirblewind and Crusader AA Mk II, but worse in every category except Armor Pen (equal to Wirble better than Crusader).  It should be 3.3 as it is pathetic at 3.7

 

The M26A1 has slightly better pen than the M26.  That is the only substantive difference.  The small increase in Armor Pen  is no reason for this to be at 6.7, it should reside at 6.3  Especially considering that the M26 feels over BR when compared to its brother the T26E1-1

 

The OF-40 is essentially an Italian Version of the Leopard I.  It has the same ammunition as the Leopard I and the M60, with the same basic speed and armor as the Leopard I.  It should share the same BR of 7.7

 

I would love some comments.  

 

 

 

The M11 need a fix, of course has the wrong balistics and pen just look at the barrel length the telescopic scope and 640m/s velocity. The real pen should be around 57 or something i don't remember correctly but is in the other tread on the M11. If they fix it, it could stay at 1.3 being better than the actual cv33. Putting the m13 I as a reserve with the L6 and the m13 III as a 1.3 tank would be the best fix. A 20mm reserve and a 47 one. Giving the players a 20mm gun tank that struggles at 1.3 because of uptier and a 47mm with the slower reload balancing it

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2 hours ago, MadMax_ITA_ said:

The M11 need a fix, of course has the wrong balistics and pen just look at the barrel length the telescopic scope and 640m/s velocity. The real pen should be around 57 or something i don't remember correctly but is in the other tread on the M11. If they fix it, it could stay at 1.3 being better than the actual cv33. Putting the m13 I as a reserve with the L6 and the m13 III as a 1.3 tank would be the best fix. A 20mm reserve and a 47 one. Giving the players a 20mm gun tank that struggles at 1.3 because of uptier and a 47mm with the slower reload balancing it

I think the M11 could also benefit from an SPG spawn...as it is basically an SPG witht he casemate gun

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2 hours ago, Conte_Baracca said:

I think the M11 could also benefit from an SPG spawn...as it is basically an SPG witht he casemate gun

Exactly I'm trying to say so from a week or so and finally someone else thinks so XD it would also cost less and have more of a punch Than the cv

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8 hours ago, MadMax_ITA_ said:

The M11 need a fix, of course has the wrong balistics and pen just look at the barrel length the telescopic scope and 640m/s velocity. The real pen should be around 57 or something i don't remember correctly but is in the other tread on the M11. If they fix it, it could stay at 1.3 being better than the actual cv33. Putting the m13 I as a reserve with the L6 and the m13 III as a 1.3 tank would be the best fix. A 20mm reserve and a 47 one. Giving the players a 20mm gun tank that struggles at 1.3 because of uptier and a 47mm with the slower reload balancing it

Even with increased armor piercing capability the M11/39 in NO WAY can have an higher Battle Rating than the first M13/40.

The tank is completely INFERIOR in EVERY SINGLE ASPECT compared to the M13/40, except for a bit of improved mobility.

It's so OBVIOUS that I still fail to understand HOW is it possible that the vehicle has been placed higher in the tech tree.

Just look at the name of the two tanks: you don't even need to know what an M11/39 and an M13/40 are. They could be tanks, planes, cars, space ships or whatever, but it's absolutely OBVIOUS that the M11/39 came first, and then the M13/40.

 

Of course I'm not against you MadMax_ITA. The fact is that when I see a software house making such things I lose all faith in mankind.

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I know it even bothered me in the first time when I saw it but I think I know why they did it, they didn't give it a br comparing it to a tank but to a TD, they thought that it was .3 better than the CV33, and probably after the better penetration round it will be because of the 3 crew etc but I know that is not better than the m13 if we talk about a tank. They just made it a TD, I'm not against anyone but the people saying that the CV33 should be at 1.3 are not right because that thing would simply collapse there while this one as a little bit more opportunity to be useful. I think that they made this decision considering it a TD while still giving it a medium tank designation and this probably wasn't the right thing

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To be honest I think they should change it to a TD in game so it would make a little more sense and hopefully would get a fix because right now it does not behave like a 1.3 same goes for the L6 that should take the place of the m13 III as the second reserve and put that one on 1.3 br

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23 hours ago, Conte_Baracca said:

The OF-40 is essentially an Italian Version of the Leopard I.  It has the same ammunition as the Leopard I and the M60, with the same basic speed and armor as the Leopard I.  It should share the same BR of 7.7

The OF-40 is the only tank on your list I do not fully agree with. This tank has a far better survivability than the Leopard 1, so I would wait for when it goes live and the hype for the Italian ground forces dies down to see what br it should have.

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3 hours ago, SergenteA said:

The OF-40 is the only tank on your list I do not fully agree with. This tank has a far better survivability than the Leopard 1, so I would wait for when it goes live and the hype for the Italian ground forces dies down to see what br it should have.

Other Vehicles that are 8.0:

T95E1...arguably more survivable and has APFSDS

M3 Bradley..Different kind of vehicle, but ATGMS and a nasty autocannon that is stabilised.

IS-7...Do I really need to type anything here?

BMP-2..That missile

Object 906 ... Okay...got me here

Warrior.  Two words...Milan II

Then there are all the radar guided SPAAs.  They aren't really in the same category, so no need to go through them.

 

I understand what you are saying, but the M60 has some pretty stout armor at 7.7, and the T95E1 has BETTER armor and an APFSDS at the same BR.  I agree that it is technically more survivable than a Leopard I, but I just don't think it justifies the Higher BR.

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, MadMax_ITA_ said:

I know it even bothered me in the first time when I saw it but I think I know why they did it, they didn't give it a br comparing it to a tank but to a TD, they thought that it was .3 better than the CV33, and probably after the better penetration round it will be because of the 3 crew etc but I know that is not better than the m13 if we talk about a tank. They just made it a TD, I'm not against anyone but the people saying that the CV33 should be at 1.3 are not right because that thing would simply collapse there while this one as a little bit more opportunity to be useful. I think that they made this decision considering it a TD while still giving it a medium tank designation and this probably wasn't the right thing

Well ok but the M11/39 was never intended as a tank destroyer, just like the M3 Lee for example.

The best thing to do in my opinion is to place it as a reserve before the M13/40, with this one raised at BR 1.3.

In the meantime, considering the M11/39 a bit "scary" as a reserve, they can make the L6/40 reserve too and switch its place with the AB41.

Quite easy.

 

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10 minutes ago, Menarrosto said:

L6/40 reserve too and switch its place with the AB41.

no "machineguns" can be done as reserve tanks

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11 hours ago, BlueBeta said:

"machineguns"

deleted

Edited by Cpl_Stalinium
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1 hour ago, Menarrosto said:

Well ok but the M11/39 was never intended as a tank destroyer, just like the M3 Lee for example.

The best thing to do in my opinion is to place it as a reserve before the M13/40, with this one raised at BR 1.3.

In the meantime, considering the M11/39 a bit "scary" as a reserve, they can make the L6/40 reserve too and switch its place with the AB41.

Quite easy.

 

But it would be impractical as a tank in game, because of the role it served and the role it ended up having it is better suited for a TD while the L6 could be the Italian pz2 reserve and like you said the m14 III raised to 1.3 that would be a perfect solution. I would suggest putting the M11 as a reserve just if they don't fix the gun 

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10 hours ago, Cpl_Stalinium said:

You mean autocannon, right? If this is the case, the Germans already have a Panzer II (20mm autocannon) as a reverse tank.

I don't understand why the L6/40 shouldn't be a reserve tank as well.

The PzII is not a reserve, just a 1.0BR

The reserves are PzIIIB and Pz35

No nation got a fast "tank-chopper" 20mm gun as reserve.

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27 minutes ago, BlueBeta said:

The PzII is not a reserve, just a 1.0BR

The reserves are PzIIIB and Pz35

No nation got a fast "tank-chopper" 20mm gun as reserve.

That's strage. War thunder wiki says it's a reserve tank :dntknw:.

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7 minutes ago, Cpl_Stalinium said:

That's strage. War thunder wiki says it's a reserve tank :dntknw:.

It was years ago.

Anyway, the Breda 20/65 is not properly a "tank-chopper" with its low rate of fire, I don't think it could cause problems.

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1 hour ago, BlueBeta said:

The PzII is not a reserve, just a 1.0BR

The reserves are PzIIIB and Pz35

No nation got a fast "tank-chopper" 20mm gun as reserve.

It was back in the day when I started, if it was fine there while it had and still has a crappy reload rate, like our L6, it could be made a good reserve

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3 hours ago, Menarrosto said:

It was years ago.

Anyway, the Breda 20/65 is not properly a "tank-chopper" with its low rate of fire, I don't think it could cause problems.

500rpm low rate of fire?. Maybe we are using 2 different tanks.

The pzIIIB was added for remove the pz2 as reserve. The needs changes every time. For the today standards the breda 20mm is not fine. 

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4 hours ago, BlueBeta said:

500rpm low rate of fire?. Maybe we are using 2 different tanks.

The pzIIIB was added for remove the pz2 as reserve. The needs changes every time. For the today standards the breda 20mm is not fine. 

Uhm ok so, summing up:

- The L6/40 is no good as reserve because of its autocannon.

- The M11/39 is no good because of its casemate mounted main armament.

- The L3/33 CC is no good too for same reason as above.

- The AB41 is no good because it's an armored car.

Solution: use an overpowered tank to fill the reserve spot.

Good idea.

 

In my opinion Gaijin is too closed minded. They refused to use the M11/39 because of its configuration, but they forget that a reserve vehicle is played for just a few matches, the minimum time required to unlock the following vehicle, so that I can't see big problems with the M11/39 as a reserve. It's still better than the French ones.

 

Anyway, the entire discussion is futile as Gaijin already choose the reserve vehicles and won't come back for any reason.

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5 hours ago, BlueBeta said:

500rpm low rate of fire?. Maybe we are using 2 different tanks.

The pzIIIB was added for remove the pz2 as reserve. The needs changes every time. For the today standards the breda 20mm is not fine. 

The A.B. 41 is AMAZING.  I'm totally with you there.

So is the AS42. 

However

The L6 is pretty slow.  Why does it have a higher BR than the Pz IIC?  Which is arguably a better version of the L6

The M11/39 is NOT better than any of the M13/40s (even Serie I) so it should also be at 1.0.  I like the M13/40 as a reserve, but that does not mean that some of these other tanks don't need a downward adjustment.  Also...the A.B. 41 could go up, but again the Pz IIC is 1.0.

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I like to make a small rant about a 90/53 M41M and Breda 501 (in txt) and some opinions. Critique is always welcome. Also sorry about the quality of these posts. I'm quite new with forum altough I have almost 4000h in game.

Italia Fixed.txt

Fixed.png

Edited by Rieskaruisku
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1 hour ago, Rieskaruisku said:

I like to make a small rant about a 90/53 M41M and Breda 501 (in txt) and some opinions. Critique is always welcome. Also sorry about the quality of these posts. I'm quite new with forum altough I have almost 4000h in game.

Italia Fixed.txt

Fixed.png

I think the Breda 501 is fine at 4.0....it is less well protected than the FlakBus but it is much more mobile both feel right at 4.0.  The 90/53 is slow, three man crew, no armor, but the gun is CRAZY.  The 3inch gun carrier is 3.0 and has a much worse gun, is also slow, but has crazy good armor.  I feel like if you were going to drop the 90/53 it shouldn't go below 3.0.  I'm with you on the rest.  I like the M13/40 Serie I and the M11.39 as the reserve.

 

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M11 as a reserve, where it should go? Devs put it in the TD line because it behaves like a TD, it would be strange to put it in the medium line, even if it's a medium by nomenclature, since it's so weird to use. I would wait and see if they fix it and make it worth for 1.3, then maybe we can think of a rework 

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5 minutes ago, MadMax_ITA_ said:

M11 as a reserve, where it should go? Devs put it in the TD line because it behaves like a TD, it would be strange to put it in the medium line, even if it's a medium by nomenclature, since it's so weird to use. I would wait and see if they fix it and make it worth for 1.3, then maybe we can think of a rework 

It would be fine in the Medium line

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8 minutes ago, MadMax_ITA_ said:

M11 as a reserve, where it should go? Devs put it in the TD line because it behaves like a TD, it would be strange to put it in the medium line, even if it's a medium by nomenclature, since it's so weird to use. I would wait and see if they fix it and make it worth for 1.3, then maybe we can think of a rework 

I can't see so many difficulties in using it. It's a medium tank which can fire only in the frontal arc, a wide frontal arc to be honest.

For example the M3 Lee is in the medium line and I've never seen someone complaining for this.

Furthermore, you are forced to play a reserve vehicle for just a few matches.

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