Turra

Sho't kal dalet is kinda broken.

That APFS-DS with that reloadspeed is not suited for 8.3

 

a 8.3 tank with ERA good enough to make the post pen of a 400mm heat-fs so useless it Reds a crewmember instead of killing him.

sure sure sure, its slow bla bla bla, but 8.3s of the ground reload speed and 380mm apfs-ds round does sound to me like that belongs in 8.7-9.0

 

The only thing i see with the Sho't kal dalet is that the mobility is too bad for it to go up to 9.0 rly.

 

It shares the same br as the T-62, T10m, chieftain mk3??

 

t-62 has better mobility, worse armour, worse gun and worse reload.

T10m has worse everything except for stright line speed.

Chieftain mk3...lol lucky for this tank that it does not have to face the Sho't kal dalet

 

lets remember that 7.3 tanks will face this, and many 7.3-7.7 and 8.0 tanks will rely heavily on heat-fs, which this tank is immune to. 97% of the surface frontally has ERA.

Luckily it only works for the first shot but still.

 

idk exactly what gaijin is thinking atm, it feels like they knowingly put the tank at a low br because they want it to stop so players buy it and then after X amout of time put it at 8.7

 

Edited by Turra
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Give it the Mantlet armor it should have, the modern sights/optics it should have, the addon UFP armor it should have, and let it actually reach more than 50% of its top speed and THEN it would be suited for 8.7.

At the moment however, its completely bugged and missing a ton of things. 

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And, if Sho't kal Dalet go on to 8.7, T-55AM and Leopard A1A1 L44 need to up 9.0 

Reason :

Leopard L44 --> Better gun, fast reload, good mobility, better ammo.
T-55AM --> Better ammo, more armored, better speed/acceleration, ATGM. 

 

Yes with that, XM-1 should be up too. 

 

Another suggestion : Chieftain Mk.3, M551 (Bradley is 8.0 and this one is 8.3 with worst effective battle, that's make no sens) M60A1 (+ariete version) need 8.0 BR, STB-1 up to 8.0 (Stabilizer) and T-10m maybe cans go 8.0 too. 

 

We're still waiting for the change of battle rating of these vehicles: M60 RISE (P), Chieftain Mk.5, Chieftain Mk.10, Black Prince and others tanks. 

 

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7 hours ago, Whisky_077 said:

And, if Sho't kal Dalet go on to 8.7, T-55AM and Leopard A1A1 L44 need to up 9.0 

Reason :

Leopard L44 --> Better gun, fast reload, good mobility, better ammo.
T-55AM --> Better ammo, more armored, better speed/acceleration, ATGM. 

 

Yes with that, XM-1 should be up too. 

 

Another suggestion : Chieftain Mk.3, M551 (Bradley is 8.0 and this one is 8.3 with worst effective battle, that's make no sens) M60A1 (+ariete version) need 8.0 BR, STB-1 up to 8.0 (Stabilizer) and T-10m maybe cans go 8.0 too. 

 

We're still waiting for the change of battle rating of these vehicles: M60 RISE (P), Chieftain Mk.5, Chieftain Mk.10, Black Prince and others tanks. 

Well.

Sure you're right about those tanks getting an uptier, but idk about the T55AM, that tank does not belong to 9.0.

But! We can talk all we want about the T55AM and L44 leo. but those tanks aren't the point of this thread right?

 

Or we could prehaps have a discussion about what the thread is about.

There are plenty of threads about the leopard L44 and T55AM and so on.

I mean i could go to the Tiger II thread and start talking about the is-2 and its problems, but that will not really server the thread about the tiger II right?

 

Sure other tanks need a change, but does that mean we cannot talk about this tanks problems?

By that logic, if gaijin release the next IS-6 in 8.3 and it behaves like a 9.0 tank, we're not allowed to complain about it because other tanks in other countries have the same need of br change?

13 hours ago, GhostOfCaliban said:

Give it the Mantlet armor it should have, the modern sights/optics it should have, the addon UFP armor it should have, and let it actually reach more than 50% of its top speed and THEN it would be suited for 8.7.

At the moment however, its completely bugged and missing a ton of things. 

Okay? what is it missing? what gunmantlet should it have? and how does that have anything to do with the tank right now being at 8.3 slinging apfsds ammo thats identical to the DM23 apfsds?

Edited by Turra
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2 hours ago, Turra said:

Okay? what is it missing? what gunmantlet should it have? and how does that have anything to do with the tank right now being at 8.3 slinging apfsds ammo thats identical to the DM23 apfsds?


its a glass cannon at this BR. It doesn't have any armor that helps it hold up against anything, The ERA across 6-7 matches has only saved my butt once. The gun and ammo are great but there's just not enough to warrant bumping it any higher than 8.7 and thats a tough sell for me cotton.

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1 hour ago, Sledgehammer427 said:

its a glass cannon at this BR. It doesn't have any armor that helps it hold up against anything, The ERA across 6-7 matches has only saved my butt once.

Hmm i have fired T10m heat-fs at it and post pen damage was horrible.

 

1 hour ago, Sledgehammer427 said:

The gun and ammo are great but there's just not enough to warrant bumping it any higher than 8.7

The meta right now is good enough pen to be able to penetrate your enemy, firerate and mobility.

The only thing it lacks is pure mobility.

 

and the thing that excells is the raw penetrating power in combination of the firerate. in position that tank could easily handle all the 9.0-9.3 tanks frontally from 2km distance, which is rather insane when you think about it.

The reload time adds to the aspect of ease of use from distance, at long distances, generally the first hit wins at these BR's.

Say you face a T10m from 2km, and he misses, you can fire at least 2 times before he can fire again, effectively giving you a 100% bigger chance of hitting first.

 

Or say you face a MBT-70, you will have 14% better chanse of hitting him first in a long distance engagement.

You don't belive in small % advantages? well try play poker and you will undertsand :)

And maybe you don't think about it, but neutral steering is gold, i could easily traade 10km/h on a 30km/h tank for neutral steering, idk how many times i have died because i see a tank on my side and don't have enough time to turn around to shoot because of the lack of neutral steering.

 

Also in a close distance engagement, say you both fire once and donk your first shot, hitting engine or even miss a stress shot. that tank will win that engagement because of the reload time and he will penetrate, no matter how youre angled and so on because of the raw penetrating power.

 

thats my view of it all

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55 minutes ago, Turra said:

Hmm i have fired T10m heat-fs at it and post pen damage was horrible.

fire solid shot or APFSDS and watch that tank pop like a overfilled balloon. You're firing HEAT at a target with ERA, should explain itself.

 

56 minutes ago, Turra said:

The only thing it lacks is pure mobility.

Which would be okay if it wasn't squaring off against anything Russian or German which generally arrive at ambush spots well in advance of the Sho't

 

58 minutes ago, Turra said:

You don't belive in small % advantages? well try play poker and you will undertsand

I used to work at a casino, I know plenty about poker.

My main point is, its a Chieftain in the realm of Leopards and late generation Russian tanks. You're taking an OK 1950s tank, modernising it barely to a 1980s standard and putting it against tanks built in the 70s and 80s outright with those technologies built in. It's a strong tank in the right hands but it takes some seriously experienced hands to get that effect.

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Unfortunately I can't find anything official (i.e. an IDF source) but two books I own and several online sources say that the IDF did add an additional armor plate to the upper glacis in the same manner as the Brits. The two websites below list the total thickness as between 118 mm and 120 mm. This matches up with what the Centurion MK 10 has in the game, 76 mm of base armor plus an extra 44 mm thick plate. In the photo below it looks apparent to me that an additional armor plate has been fitted to the upper glacis of the Shot Kal as well. The in game tank does have an extra armor plate but it is only 5 mm thick. This seems to be more of a mounting surface for the ERA than actual armor

 

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/modern/Israel/Shot-MBT.php

https://aw.my.com/us/news/general/development-shot-kal-dalet

 

What is surprising to me is that the Israeli's kept the original mantlet armor from the centurion MK 3 and Mk 5 which has a max thickness of 152 mm but as little as 100 mm . The British developed a new mantlet that had a max thickness in of 200 mm  for most of it's face which you can see on the MK 10 in the game. I added photo's showing the two different mantlet styles below

 

shot_kal_0.thumb.jpg.13b54ec0602043591a1

 

 

919979141_MK10.thumb.jpg.0405f101e31f14a

 

 

1142545162_1200px-A41_Centurion_Mk3__Kub

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3 hours ago, Sledgehammer427 said:

fire solid shot or APFSDS and watch that tank pop like a overfilled balloon. You're firing HEAT at a target with ERA, should explain itself.

Well, the aphe is unreliable nowadays against the majority of tanks t10m faces so loading the aphe as a priority shell isnt the best choise. 

So most of the time you run around in the t10m you will have heatfs or apds(for long distance) loaded if youre not top tier, only then is aphe reliable enough on the penetration aspect. 

 

Plus what you just said does strengthen the argument in the main post. That many tanks it will face heavily rely on heat ammo.

3 hours ago, Sledgehammer427 said:

modernising it barely to a 1980s standard and putting it against tanks built in the 70s and 80s

Yep! But that has not hindered gaijin before, and has not hindered a tank from preforming eather. 

The is-3 is a 1947 tank that shares the same br as the conq which was built in about 1958. 

And type 61 at br7.0 was produced 1960 too.

3 hours ago, Sledgehammer427 said:

seriously experienced hands to get that effect.

I dont agree, a slower tank can still be a force to recon with by someone thst is not a unicom player. 

 

3 hours ago, THO88 said:

Unfortunately I can't find anything official

Thats too bad if it is so. 

The tank should have the correct values. 

Edited by Turra
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Originally I thought this vehicle was going to be around 7.7 like the Magach, but wow I can't believe it has APFSDS. The same shell as the Leopard A1A1 by the looks of it, just with a different name. This should definitely go up to 8.7 at least.

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32 minutes ago, Jarms said:

Originally I thought this vehicle was going to be around 7.7 like the Magach, but wow I can't believe it has APFSDS. The same shell as the Leopard A1A1 by the looks of it, just with a different name. This should definitely go up to 8.7 at least.

Yes but it isn't nearly as mobile as the Leopard A1A1. 

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On 18/12/2018 at 04:31, GhostOfCaliban said:

Give it the Mantlet armor it should have

Unsure why the Mantlet is less than the standard Mk.5 Centurion, shouldn't be but it is for some reason unless the Israelis changed it, which I highly doubt.

 

On 18/12/2018 at 04:31, GhostOfCaliban said:

the addon UFP armor it should have

 

15 hours ago, THO88 said:

shot_kal_0.thumb.jpg.13b54ec0602043591a1

 

The Israeli's used a Centurion Mk 5 or more specifically a Mk 5/2. These were upgunned using the L7 we all know. However the UFP was NOT upgraded and still used the default 76mm UFP. The image you have linked, that is not the extra 44mm armour plate, but the backing plate to the ERA panels. Feel lucky it even got that, the Centurion AVRE while the backing plate is modeled it is not part of the armour profile. 

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26 minutes ago, Blitzkrieguk said:

Unsure why the Mantlet is less than the standard Mk.5 Centurion, shouldn't be but it is for some reason unless the Israelis changed it, which I highly doubt.

The cupola appears to have received quite a big decrease in armour too:

Spoiler

qmOnrMM.jpg

 

Edited by Time4Tea
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2 hours ago, Blitzkrieguk said:

The Israeli's used a Centurion Mk 5 or more specifically a Mk 5/2. These were upgunned using the L7 we all know. However the UFP was NOT upgraded and still used the default 76mm UFP. The image you have linked, that is not the extra 44mm armour plate, but the backing plate to the ERA panels. Feel lucky it even got that, the Centurion AVRE while the backing plate is modeled it is not part of the armour profile. 

 

All the photo's of its UFP show it being the exact same profile as the 44mm addon plate, which is a very distinct shape and different from the 5mm spacer/structural plate of the AVRE. Every website that talks about the different upgrades they got say the Sho't Kal Bet upgrade in 1976 added that 44mm plate (along with new turret traverse controls/mechanisms) though I'm still digging for a book to reference. Someone in the dev server section before the patch said they were going to speak to some museum people who worked on/with some of them to get more info, not sure when that's happening though.

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4 minutes ago, GhostOfCaliban said:

 

All the photo's of its UFP show it being the exact same profile as the 44mm addon plate, which is a very distinct shape and different from the 5mm spacer/structural plate of the AVRE. Every website that talks about the different upgrades they got say the Sho't Kal Bet upgrade in 1976 added that 44mm plate (along with new turret traverse controls/mechanisms) though I'm still digging for a book to reference. Someone in the dev server section before the patch said they were going to speak to some museum people who worked on/with some of them to get more info, not sure when that's happening though.

 

I've had a look around. And it seems there are a couple of marks. It seems the Mk I does not have the upgraded UFP. But the III does. The tank we have in game looks like what is referred to as the Sho't Kal Gimel. 

2472.jpg

 

It's quite obvious it actually does have the increased UFP protection.

 

Where you can see these do not.

Shot-Israeli_Tank_Battles_Egyptian_Force

IGc55MC.jpg

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8 minutes ago, Blitzkrieguk said:

 

2472.jpg

 

It's quite obvious it actually does have the increased UFP protection.

 

This is a good photo. If you look at the plate corner just above the track it’s obvious it’s quite thick and not just a mounting plate. The picture I posted is deceiving because most of the plate thickness was covered up by the overhang from the lower glacis plate.

 

For such a simple upgrade upgrade it has a significant increase on effective armor thickness. Comparing the Cent Mk 10 (which has the 44mm plate) to the Mk 3 (which has the original 76 mm) in the protection analysis you get nearly an extra 100 mm of effective armor (~270 mm vs 170 mm)! At 1000+ yards this would be enough to somewhat reliably stop APDS rounds and with the ERA stop most of HEAT rounds. With the right angling I was even able to get a non penetration for some of the shittier APFSDS rounds. This is a significant upgrade Gajjin is omitting

 

50 minutes ago, GhostOfCaliban said:

 

All the photo's of its UFP show it being the exact same profile as the 44mm addon plate, which is a very distinct shape and different from the 5mm spacer/structural plate of the AVRE. Every website that talks about the different upgrades they got say the Sho't Kal Bet upgrade in 1976 added that 44mm plate (along with new turret traverse controls/mechanisms) though I'm still digging for a book to reference. Someone in the dev server section before the patch said they were going to speak to some museum people who worked on/with some of them to get more info, not sure when that's happening though.

 

I’m in the same boat as you. The only references I’ve found stating the addition of the add on armor are online and all of my books talk about the British Centurions in detail but only make vague references about the Israeli upgrades. Good luck in your search and please share if you find anything

 

 

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10 hours ago, Blitzkrieguk said:

 The tank we have in game looks like what is referred to as the Sho't Kal Gimel. 

 

The only exterior differences between the Gimel (1982) and Dalet (1985/1986) are the thermal sleeve around the gun barrel, the rest of the Dalet changes were interior things like updating wiring and interior crew gear, the biggest difference was the laser rangefinder.

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On 19/12/2018 at 06:50, Sledgehammer427 said:

fire solid shot or APFSDS and watch that tank pop like a overfilled balloon. You're firing HEAT at a target with ERA, should explain itself.

Pretty much.

With some many ERA tanks around you have to switch between APDS and HEAT-FS between 7.7 and 8.7 with 105mm tanks.

 

On 19/12/2018 at 06:50, Sledgehammer427 said:

Which would be okay if it wasn't squaring off against anything Russian or German which generally arrive at ambush spots well in advance of the Sho't

The Sho't is extremely slow for its BR. Some people call the T-55AM slow but it is still much faster than the Dalet. Its turret also turns slow and the optics isn't enough to make full use of its M111 round at sniping.

 

On 19/12/2018 at 06:50, Sledgehammer427 said:

My main point is, its a Chieftain in the realm of Leopards and late generation Russian tanks. You're taking an OK 1950s tank, modernising it barely to a 1980s standard and putting it against tanks built in the 70s and 80s outright with those technologies built in. It's a strong tank in the right hands but it takes some seriously experienced hands to get that effect.

Personally the Chieftain Mk.3 is just as good at 8.3. It isn't OP at 8.3 so neither should do Dalet be.

 

On 19/12/2018 at 06:52, THO88 said:

What is surprising to me is that the Israeli's kept the original mantlet armor from the centurion MK 3 and Mk 5 which has a max thickness of 152 mm but as little as 100 mm . The British developed a new mantlet that had a max thickness in of 200 mm  for most of it's face which you can see on the MK 10 in the game. I added photo's showing the two different mantlet styles below

Actually both mantlets have about the same protection value. On some discussion the original one is actually thicker - there is more steel behind the mantlet, but it is quite prone to jamming after a direct hit.

 

The resilient mantlet aimed to prevent the gun elevation getting jammed after a hit, not primarily to increase protection.

 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/428608-centurion-mk-10-incorrect-turret-armour/

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Loongsheep said:

Personally the Chieftain Mk.3 is just as good at 8.3. It isn't OP at 8.3 so neither should do Dalet be.

 

As I've play it last two days I dont think its op at all...really good armament...armor might save you but not really often (Im not entirely sure is it working as intended)... 8.3 feels like it exactly sits in the right spot....lets remember that Sho't is really slow...also reload is not really what you would expect from centurion class tank (I would slightly buff this part but only this) and terrible crew displacement. They are really close to each other (like in all Centurions)

Edited by Ahnkoo
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It's 6.7 Centurion with ERA at 8.3. It's slow, turret rotation is below‑average, and Panther II can kill it easily - so much about armor. The only thing it has is 105mm gun with good stock APFSDS. Compared to other 8.7 premiums this tank is much more a piece to the collection for players who like Centurions than OP tank. Maybe the only problem is, that someone in this tank outplayed and killed you?

Edited by *tibino1212
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1 hour ago, *tibino1212 said:

Panther II can kill it easily

Luckily it won't face any tanks slinging AP against it.

Luckily it faces tanks slinging heat-fs against it all the time, do you know how 7.7-8.3 looks like?

 

AP is not a round this tank will face, and if it does, its up against full uptiered tanks slinging ap against it instead of heat-fs most of the 7.3 tanks have and will use.

 

Plus the fact that tanks with heat-fs are more popular than tanks without heat-fs, makes it only more probable that this tank will only face heat-fs in a top tier match.

Of which will have a really hard time doing damage against this tank.

1 hour ago, *tibino1212 said:

that someone in this tank outplayed and killed you?

sighs... funny how people go in attack mode when they see something that they don't agree on, saying l2p , git gud or Ace and so on... please spare all of us this kind of language.

 

I have faced this tank some times now, and i don't talk about the times i get outplayed or flanked or anything like that.

I'm talking about the MANY times i have shot Sho't kal dalet first with 400mm pen T10m heat-fs and watch the post pen damage doing no significant damage whatsoever, The heat projectile becomes becomes a needle going through the tank only damaging the things in direct path of the projectile, almost no spalling or fragmentation.

 

i have seen crew get red damaged instead of dying, seen ammunition become red, yellow and even black without exploding on direct hit, i have seen 400mm pen heat-fs becoming absorbed.

This does not happen against, say a leopard, or a T95E1 or even a XM-803.

 

do you now understand what i have a problem with?

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1 hour ago, Turra said:

Luckily it won't face any tanks slinging AP against it.

Luckily it faces tanks slinging heat-fs against it all the time, do you know how 7.7-8.3 looks like?

I have a big surprise for you - people can drive Panther II in 8.3 battles if they want to. I met a couple of them and my Shot popped like popcorn. Maybe try to load some sort of AP shell if you meet Shot Kal next time. And I know how 7.7 - 8.3 looks like...several tanks with APFSDS side by side with tanks with the best APCBC in the game and of course with HEATFS (btw. HEATFS can kill tank with ERA, but yes, sometimes it works) supported by one of the best APFSDS at 7.7 and by reserves rushing cap...

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