IvanTheFabulous

Javelin FAW9 Issues (speed under performing)

So where do I start...

 

The Javelin FAW9 is not correct.

 

When I checked this plane in the dev server I'm pretty sure the engines were listed as SA6 engines. Which is wrong, the Javelin FAW9 had SA7R engines with reheat. The FAW7 had SA7 engines. Only the earlier variants before the FAW7 had SA6 engines...

 

The plane is missing thrust, since everything I can find lists the thrust in "lbf" not "kgf" I had to convert the in-game thrust, it worked out to roughly 10,000 lbf on full WEP (reheat?)

 

None of the aforementioned engines produce 10,000lbf of thrust so this completely wrong. 

 

SA6: 8000lbf

SA7: 11,000lbf

SA7R: 11,000lbf (12,300 with reheat)

 

In total the plane is missing roughly 4000lbf of thrust (when considering reheat thrust).

 

The top speed of the plane is wrong. The plane struggles throughout acceleration due to a fuel starvation bug that starts the second you make any form of movement with the plane, then every 5-10s the plane will fuel starve until you force a real fuel starvation using Negative G-forces and the bug goes away, however it will come back again the second you move the plane to do anything but level flight. It has been claimed by other players the plane fuel starves at 1060kmh+.

 

I'm yet to see the fuel starvation at 1060kmh because the planes airframe breaks apart at 1030-1035kmh IAS, regardless of upgrades.

 

This is utterly wrong, the Javelin FAW9 (and in-fact the majority of Javelin models) had a perfectly safe LEVEL FLIGHT top speed of 1120-1140kmh at SEA LEVEL - not 981kmh at 100m.

 

 

Next up the ailerons have absolutely abysmal input and the plane can be out turned by a Hunter which again is completely inaccurate. The Hunter is already not even close to its real life agility, and the FAW9 is even worse when it should actually be significantly better.

 

In any case here are some sources:

 

For engines: https://www.baesystems.com/en/heritage/gloster-javelin

Untitled.png.9fa89e56640be46bcbf4b005944

 

For Top speed of the FAW9 (As BAE only lists the FAW7): http://yorkshireairmuseum.org/exhibits/post-world-war-ii-aircraft/gloster-javelin-faw9/

Untitled1.thumb.png.3c5978e81bddd54a56b5

 

Also this book is sited everywhere: Patridge, J. The Gloster Javelin 1–6: Number 179. Profile Publications, 1967

19128306534.jpg.4599a80aa7420db438c35c07

 

So I found a PDF copy of this book which also proves the climb-rate to be wrong for the FAW9.

 

Untitled3.thumb.png.f2b115b7068d989a6b9e67.png.07da146a7b147fd544262dbaaabdbd0d.

As you can see here, the Saphire SA6 engine produces a claimed 8300lb of static thrust. That same engine is in the Mk1-6. As you can see from the chart the Mk5 was capable of 10,500ft/min climb... or 53.3 M/s climb rate - with only 8300lb of thrust and no reheat.

The FAW9 is significantly higher thrust-weight and significant faster in level flight and climbing.

The Javelin is more than capable of breaking the speed of sound as well.

Untitled5.png.132ec63d1ceb25f64d2471c761Untitled.png.e71ba5c4b00f1dd5d36c07c6e2f

 

From: http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/javelin/history.php

678.thumb.png.d26bd62d1ea1a04015e0a24458

shows top speed of the FAW8/9 to be 610knots, which equates to 1129kmh. FAW7 is claimed as 616knots or 1140kmh. My guess is that speed is not measured using reheat as the FAW8/9 are heavier and longer than the FAW7.

 

from: Gloster Javelin: An Operational History by Michael Napier (ISBN: 9781473848825)

876.png.94ee2941f2c9a290743b5b38a851d320

 

Edited by IvanTheFabulous
  • Like 5
  • Thanks 9
  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great start, but not quite all data desires.

 

Please find info on just the engine too, the Saffires.

 

You have a CLOG of flying the Javalin in Dev serve?

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

Great start, but not quite all data desires.

 

Please find info on just the engine too, the Saffires.

 

You have a CLOG of flying the Javalin in Dev serve?

 

 

I don't have a CLOG, tried to record the game session but it kept crashing the dev build of the game whenever the recording started.

 

I'm trying to dig up as much as I can, my target atm is the book by Michael Napier trying to find a PDF uploaded version of it.

medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, IvanTheFabulous said:

I don't have a CLOG, tried to record the game session but it kept crashing the dev build of the game whenever the recording started.

 

I'm trying to dig up as much as I can, my target atm is the book by Michael Napier trying to find a PDF uploaded version of it.

 

I understand difficulty at getting a CLOG now.  We will drop it for now.

 

I tried looking for info, not much is there.  :(  

Not that much glamor post war.

 

That book can see here, https://www.scribd.com/book/298101596/Gloster-Javelin-An-Operation-History

BUT offers nothing of value for this report.  :( 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Pony51 said:

Excellent!

I've got more ;) procured a copy of a Mk9 pilots notes.

3456.thumb.png.68ada9242cb589ff56d153da82485.thumb.png.b984cd589f2132fcfecfefab9

 

 

88.png.f068e5e50ea887d9f439b95b6a909906. 

Edited by IvanTheFabulous
  • Upvote 2
medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is some more information on the 'top speed' of the Javelin Mk9 and also its climb time to 50,000ft in comparison to other Javelin Mk's and also Hunter F1 for reference in the book

 

It lists the top speed at 702mph/1130kph for the Javelin Mk9 and was able achieve an alt of 50,000ft in 9.25 minutes which equals roughly 5,405ft/m or 28m/s (With reheat on) However considering they used the words 'Most Javelin's could comfortably out-perform the Hunter on climb to height while always having superior armaments' its safe to assume, that the climb to height might not be indicative of 'climb rate' because in game the Hunter F1 climb rate is rated for roughly 10,800ft/m (equals 4.16 minutes to reach 45,000ft no idea on the angle of which climb rate is calculated efficiently) but in the Document the climb to Height is 11.65 minutes to 45,000ft for the Hunter F1

 

I assume the climb to height is not using a 'linear angle' but more a 'zoom climb method' because the disparity of the Hunter F1 in game to the book is huge so can only assume the 'climb to height' is a zoom climb. but either way the Javelin should be out climbing the Hunter and have a higher top speed.

 

So either the Hunter F1 climb performance is wrong or the Javelin should have a Higher climb rate over the Hunter by a good 2 mins+

 

Source - Page 24 Bottom left paragraph on that page - War Paint Series No.17 Gloster Javelin By Tony Buttler

 

Image of source

Spoiler

1308767916_part1.JPG.73a075693a4bd9b80ee

1701387702_part2.JPG.9d054330ff3d85cc519

 

 

Same source - Page 34 List the specs of the different Marks.

Spoiler

681764473_part3.JPG.702fe40a7c93b8783def

As noted in Red Sa.7R engines were rated for 11,000lb thrust dry (reheat off) and 12,300lb thrust (reheat on) 

 

Also notes the permissible Max Dive speed being 1.08 mach = 828.6507mph so again the Javelin is greatly under-performing in a dive as this should reach Mach 1+ in dives even though it doesnt.

 

Also notes the Climb to Height at 40,000ft being 7.25mins = 5,500ft/m (again no idea on angle of climb could be a zoom climb) and also notes the Mk9 Climb rate for 50,000ft being 9.25 mins (again not sure on angle of climb)

 

Edited by TheCloop123
  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to add to this here are the Javelin FAW4's pilot's notes: I was unable to get those for the FAW9 since they cost a fair bit of cash to get a hold of however the point still stands.

 

http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/aircraft/uk/gloster/javelin/a-p-4491d-pilot-s-notes-javelin-f-a-w-mk4-2nd-edition.html

 

As per page 117 the stalling speed given with flaps down is 90-95 knots. Now i currently do not have access to the dever server however it can clearly be seen that the current Javelin is an absolute whale and turns like a brick. You can clearly see here that it's stalling speed is well below that of even an A series sabre, and with a higher TWR there is no reason why it should not be turning much faster. Yes the FAW4 has different engines and a slightly shorter fuselage but there is no way that the FAW9 stall speed is currently correct.

 

It can also be seen on page 50 that the javelin has a flying tail (all parts moving) which is currently absent from the aircraft. There is also a diagram on P.52

"longitudinal control is effected by movement of the tailplane, with a follow-up movement of the elevator"

This feature was installed from the MK4 aircraft onwards.

 

Hope some of this helps to create a proper flight model for the aircraft. If the devs feel like shelling out a little bit of money the FAW9's pilots notes can be found here:

http://www.flight-manuals.com/ap4491j-pn.html

 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 4
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RAF Pilot’s Notes for the Javelin FAW.Mk.9, AP 4491J-PN dated September 1960

 

Spoiler

308585658_Pilotsmanual.thumb.PNG.6f58235

 

This Pilot's manual contains the following information:

 

Maximum Speed (Page 184):

 

Spoiler

1510264408_Capture2Pg184.PNG.ff073a2c926

 

Engines that were used on the Javelin Mk 9 (Page 147):

 

Spoiler

2029677537_Capture3Pg147.PNG.6a7c1c8a2d1

 

Proof of the Sa.7 Sapphire series engines being of the Mk 200 series.

 

I can't seem to find definitive proof of what engines the Mk 209 and 210 are or what the Mod. 1423 represents. My knowledge in this is limited.

 

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1956/1956 - 1598.PDF

 

Spoiler

Capture.PNG.48762098ca393a25050a17ff65eb

 

Edited by xShurikeNx
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Report is Passed to Devs! 

Thank you everyone!  (you can give me thanks.  :) )

 

Anything else of note can be also posted here.

 

Next time Dev is up, someone PLEASE to a fight test in FULL REAL mode.

Post CLOG here.

 

instructions:

 

 

  • Thanks 13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Blitzkrieguk said:

I may as well throw this in as well. 

 

Throw it all in!

 

Adding to report.

  • Thanks 4
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok primary source showing under all configurations the Javeling FAW.9 can achieve between mach 0.94 and 0.95 so you're looking at a speed between 1151 - 1163 kph at sea level. And this would be achieved without reheat as reheat had no effect pretty much below 16,000 ft. It also mentions in the top corner the use of the Sapphire 209/210 or 211/212. This is the Sapphire 7R.

 

VhHvzA2.png

 

Which this shows pretty much there would be so much drag it would not be able to just rip its own wings off in a straight line. Which is what should happen. 

Edited by Blitzkrieguk
  • Thanks 3
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Blitzkrieguk said:

*snip*

 

Sweet that lines up nicely with the Mk9 pilots notes showing the Mk9 to be fitted with the 209/210 Sapphire engines, also denoting the 205/206 and 209/210 engines as Sa.7R (ASSa.7LR) which is what I suspected.

 

Some more stuff that might be useful for the aircrafts handling. Some tidbits about engine fire extinguishers too as well as some reference points for take off and climb times.

21.png

 

While nothing to do with performance it would be cool if this banging sound could be modelled at some point too:

 

4.png

 

Edited by IvanTheFabulous
medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I passed another set of data to Dev as well.

I think we sent GJ an avalanche of data to fix this with!

  • Thanks 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, IvanTheFabulous said:

 

Sweet that lines up nicely with the Mk9 pilots notes showing the Mk9 to be fitted with the 209/210 Sapphire engines, also denoting the 205/206 and 209/210 engines as Sa.7R (ASSa.7LR) which is what I suspected.

 

Some more stuff that might be useful for the aircrafts handling. Some tidbits about engine fire extinguishers too as well as some reference points for take off and climb times.

21.png

 

While nothing to do with performance it would be cool if this banging sound could be modelled at some point too:

 

4.png

 

 

Actually it didn't line up with the pilot notes. The pilot notes explained why it was behaving like it did in game. As it states in its limitations a top speed of 535 knots at sea level while also admitting this speed could be achieved without full thrust and easily exceeded. This is most like to prevent wear on the frame. What the performance manual shows is the plane would hit the mach 0.95 speed but can't go faster due to the drag (rather than blowing its wings up in level flight) but also and importantly achieve this without reheat.

 

Another bug report on the climb will be made as my self and TheProYodler went over the data. But what it pretty much looks like. From sea level to 16,000ft it averages about 51 to 55 m/s. However at that point the reheat can be engaged and from 16,000ft to about 35,000ft the RoC increases massively to about 81-85m/s.

I'll let the TheProYodler make them but they should be on its climb, acceleration, drag/dive and turn. Most likely seperate reports.

Edited by Blitzkrieguk
  • Thanks 3
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm currently reading a book titled "Javelin Boys, Air Defence from the Cold War to Confrontation" by Steve Bond. Has many interviews and excerpts from Javelin pilots from multiple squadrons. This is an excerpt from Bill Hustwayte:

 

"On our fifth trip we flew a Mk.4 supersonic in a dive - the maximum speed was Mach 1.08. We got up to about 40,000 feet, tightened all our straps, headed down and Terry [Dixon] shouted out '95..96..97..98' boom-boom-boom-boom - through - '1.08', air brakes out. I was amazed how little buffeting there was".

 

Given the FAW 4 has less powerful Sapphire engines than the FAW 9 it goes without saying that the aircraft is very much capable of higher speeds than we've seen up until this point in the dev server.

 

Might I also note, that the Javelin FAW 9 is also missing it's all-flying tail in which the entire flight surface moves as with on the MiG-19 for primary pitch authority in flight. Following this upgrade from the earliest marks of Javelin the traditional elevators were only used for trim control. Also, given the Javelins low fuel capacity in early models it was quickly fitted with ventral fuel tanks capable of carrying 1137 litres of fuel and mounting underneath the engines. This isn't like having traditional wing mounted fuel tanks (which the FAW 9/R had along with a refuelling probe on the nose - someone took the name Javelin a little too literally!). There is a FAW 9 at IWM Duxford, it has these tanks along with the clearly visible all-flying tail which is currently entirely omitted from the aircraft in game. 

 

Check here for walk around photos: http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/javelin/walkaround.php. The FAW 9 at Duxford is at the bottom in the distinctive red and white scheme.

 

FAW 9 plan: xcv3G1.jpg&key=ebfda7132f20cfd1784004858

 

Note the "moveable tailplane" along with the two pitot tubes on the wing tips which were standard on the FAW 9 from what I can see of various internet sources.

 

The example from IWM Duxford: 

1233825.jpg?v=v40You can clearly see the ventral tanks in red here under the engine nacelles attached to the fuselage. Also how the tail is not aligned due to the all-flying tail design. Note while this is a FAW 9/R due to the nose mounted refuelling probe the ventral tanks and wing pitots are normal fittings on regular FAW 9's.

 

Hope this is useful!

Edited by Drunken_Jedi
  • Thanks 3
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep in mind this report is about top speed.

 

Not about the tail, which has another report.

 

The banging on throttle back will need a new report, because is something unique.

 

TY

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Drunken_Jedi said:

Sorry, I'll create another report regards to the tail etc.

 

Exists

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like GJ modeled the Mk 205 engine, not the 209/210.

 

 

 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 15/12/2018 at 06:07, Pony51 said:

Looks like GJ modeled the Mk 205 engine, not the 209/210.

 

 

 

 

Yeah that's what I thought.

 

Hopefully we will see it get the wing rip issue sorted as the plane was more drag limited rather than limited by its structural strength. If you need anymore sources for the top speed range of 1130-1160kmh at sea level let me know and I'll go digging.

 

I highly doubt the "limiting airspeed" in the pilots notes is indicative of what the aircraft was actually capable of, I saw the post you were sent that claims the 535knot top speed is correct... honestly don't think the person has understood that pilots notes are not maximum performance figures and the fact that multiple genuine sources already posted confirm it is AT LEAST 610knots at sea level with no reheat and without the airframe falling apart like its made of paper.

Edited by IvanTheFabulous
medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Moving this to regular bug reports section, this is still WIP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.