DaGreenBolt

Maus should be 7.3 or 7.0br

Recently got the maus and so far it isn't an enjoyable experience compared to other 7.7s I have played, at 7.7 br, its only good at a downteir and rn the 8.7br black hole has began. When at 8.7 the maus has no way to even survive the battle as everything lol pens him with atgms, heatfs, apfsds, and apds. At 7.3 or 7.0, it would be balanced as bmps, cent mk 10s, Vickers, conquerors, m46, m47, t44 100, amx 30, amx 13-90, will penetrate the turret easily, 6.7s can do the same but with either apds, ap, or apcr, 6.3s will have to use apcr and 6.0s can flank around it. I would see no problem at 7.3 or 7.0 as it wont be sucked into the 8.7 black hole and wont be too op

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It should be 6.7 in its current state tbfh.

- every US tank 5.7 and up except for the Jumbo 76 can frontally pen the turret, and its never NOT fighting US.

- every British 6.3-6.7 tank can easily pen the Turret, I did in the Tortoise on Sinai from long range. 

- every US 6.3-6.7 can also pen the turret face easily.

- Russian 6.3 T-44s and ASU-85s can also pen it frontally if need be

- There are a host of postwar HEAT-spewing light tanks at 6.7 ish such as the T92, Ontos, and Scorpion

 

Now who would suffer with this change? People who stupidly take Jumbo 76s and IS-2s in full uptiers. 

 

Or we could instead have all the underperforming Allied and German weaponry given correct pen and in many cases buffed postpen to give even more reasons to tier a Maus at 6.7.

- 76mm M93 HVAP should pen 248mm

- 90mm M304 HVAP should pen 317mm

- 90mm M332 HVAP should pen 340mm

- 90mm M332A1 HVAP should pen 360mm

- 90mm T43 AP should be APBC penning about what it does now vertically but pen 108mm at 60deg slope from vertical.

- 90mm M82 and T41 should have 200g explosive mass, and the latter is missing about 10mm pen.

- 90mm T44 HVAP (the long 90 APCR) should pen 373mm

- 17pdr sabot should pen 277mm

- 20pdr sabot should pen 340-350mm, extrapolated from known pen data of 330mm at 914m distance.

- 105mm T29E3 HVAP should pen 381mm

- 120mm T17E1 HVAP should pen >400mm

- 120mm L1A2 APDS should pen 460-470mm, extrapolated from known test data of it penning 446mm at 914m distance.

- 105mm L7/M68 APDS should be penning 330mm or so with the slope modifier seen on M728 currently.

- 76mm M331A2 APDS should be penning 290mm

- All tanks are missing structural failure thresholds, where if the hull or turret is struck with sufficient energy the hull plate will cave in or the turret will be ripped clean off. Implementation of said structural failure limits would massively buff large caliber HE and 105mm+ size HESH. The AVRE and FV4005 HESH would be powerful enough to cause structural failure on even a Maus. 

 

The Maus is playable currently on some maps, but frankly speaking its propped up on artificial stilts of nerfed opposition weaponry. Un-nerf that and then there’s no excuse not to put it where it belongs.

Edited by MH4UAstragon
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5 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

It should be 6.7 in its current state tbfh.

- every US tank 5.7 and up except for the Jumbo 76 can frontally pen the turret, and its never NOT fighting US.

- every British 6.3-6.7 tank can easily pen the Turret, I did in the Tortoise on Sinai from long range. 

- every US 6.3-6.7 can also pen the turret face easily.

- Russian 6.3 T-44s and ASU-85s can also pen it frontally if need be

- There are a host of postwar HEAT-spewing light tanks at 6.7 ish such as the T92, Ontos, and Scorpion

 

Now who would suffer with this change? People who stupidly take Jumbo 76s and IS-2s in full uptiers. 

 

Or we could instead have all the underperforming Allied and German weaponry given correct pen and in many cases buffed postpen to give even more reasons to tier a Maus at 6.7.

- 76mm M93 HVAP should pen 248mm

- 90mm M304 HVAP should pen 317mm

- 90mm M332 HVAP should pen 340mm

- 90mm M332A1 HVAP should pen 360mm

- 90mm T43 AP should be APBC penning about what it does now vertically but pen 108mm at 60deg slope from vertical.

- 90mm M82 and T41 should have 200g explosive mass, and the latter is missing about 10mm pen.

- 90mm T44 HVAP (the long 90 APCR) should pen 373mm

- 17pdr sabot should pen 277mm

- 20pdr sabot should pen 340-350mm, extrapolated from known pen data of 330mm at 914m distance.

- 105mm T29E3 HVAP should pen 381mm

- 120mm T17E1 HVAP should pen >400mm

- 120mm L1A2 APDS should pen 460-470mm, extrapolated from known test data of it penning 446mm at 914m distance.

- 105mm L7/M68 APDS should be penning 330mm or so with the slope modifier seen on M728 currently.

- 76mm M331A2 APDS should be penning 290mm

- All tanks are missing structural failure thresholds, where if the hull or turret is struck with sufficient energy the hull plate will cave in or the turret will be ripped clean off. Implementation of said structural failure limits would massively buff large caliber HE and 105mm+ size HESH. The AVRE and FV4005 HESH would be powerful enough to cause structural failure on even a Maus. 

 

The Maus is playable currently on some maps, but frankly speaking its propped up on artificial stilts of nerfed opposition weaponry. Un-nerf that and then there’s no excuse not to put it where it belongs.

Idk when gaijin will ever look at what you propose for ammo, but from what I do know, is that the maus isn't even worth getting as the 8.7 black hole makes its and easy target to kill, at 7.0 literally any tank from 6.0+ can kill it frontally, if they can't well they can flank.

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This is very silly.  

 

To expand:  Whenever someone unlocks a new tank, the first thing they think is, "this needs its BR lowered".  For one thing, you haven't learned to play the tank yet.  And secondly, you are playing with a stock tank.  BRs are based on spaded performance.

 

Besides, the Maus is never going to be a major player in the game.  It was an incomplete, impractical on almost every level prototype that is only ever going to be a novelty.  That said, on certain maps, I've seen good players change the course of matches with the Maus as they aren't easy to kill, unless you've got round the side of one.  They can really clog up an advance that allows your team to flank.

 

It's a situational tank.  That's what you have to accept when you have something that's armoured like that with that mobility.  Lowering the BR to 7.0 would just make it invincible and thus utterly pointless to play against.

Edited by Matt_82
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28 minutes ago, Matt_82 said:

This is very silly.  

 

To expand:  Whenever someone unlocks a new tank, the first thing they think is, "this needs its BR lowered".  For one thing, you haven't learned to play the tank yet.  And secondly, you are playing with a stock tank.  BRs are based on spaded performance.

 

Besides, the Maus is never going to be a major player in the game.  It was an incomplete, impractical on almost every level prototype that is only ever going to be a novelty.  That said, on certain maps, I've seen good players change the course of matches with the Maus as they aren't easy to kill, unless you've got round the side of one.  They can really clog up an advance that allows your team to flank.

 

It's a situational tank.  That's what you have to accept when you have something that's armoured like that with that mobility.  Lowering the BR to 7.0 would just make it invincible and thus utterly pointless to play against.

So apparently its not fair when its at 7.0 or 7.3 but its fair when it gets sucked into 8.7 battles all the time and has to deal with apfsds, atgms, heatfs, and apds of the enemy? Isn't that silly?

If you don't know, tanks from 6.0 to 7.3 can easily pen its turret as they have high pen apds, apcr, and heatfs. Also this tank is super easy to flank and that 180mm side armor is easy to pen with all 6.7 tanks and 6.3 tanks. Yk whats really silly? The fact a maus needs a downteir to be able to at least play without getting one shotted is actually quite sad. Also that you even haven't played the maus.

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Arguing over a heavy tank getting shafted because of uptier black holes is not an argument to downtier it.

 

Otherwise I want the M103 to be downtiered as well because at this rate it is a big target for APFSDS and HEAT-FS slingers.

 

Besides, it is the German 8.7 being the sole real 8.7 lineup, the responsible for the blackhole.

37 minutes ago, DaGreenBolt said:

Also this tank is super easy to flank and that 180mm side armor is easy to pen with all 6.7 tanks and 6.3 tanks. Yk whats really silly? The fact a maus needs a downteir to be able to at least play without getting one shotted is actually quite sad. Also that you even haven't played the maus.

You do realize that there are tanks in the 7.3 range that can barely penetrate more than 180mm at point blank right? 

Edited by Slayer3XD
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6 minutes ago, Slayer3XD said:

Arguing over a heavy tank getting shafted because of uptier black holes is not an argument to downtier it.

 

Otherwise I want the M103 to be downtiered as well because at this rate it is a big target for APFSDS and HEAT-FS slingers.

Unlike the maus, the m103 has a gun that can take care of its opponents as it has heatfs, and is actually has somewhat decent mobility

 

8 minutes ago, Slayer3XD said:

You do realize that there are tanks in the 7.3 range that can barely penetrate more than 180mm at point blank right?

Clearly taking about American tanks I see, but as a counter points, that's with stock ammo, and usually at 7.0 to 7.3 I usually see heatfs, heat, and apds from 7.3 tanks

 

10 minutes ago, Slayer3XD said:

Arguing over a heavy tank getting shafted because of uptier black holes is not an argument to downtier it.

Quite is an argument as one the maus is only viable when its downteired, actually useable compared to the m103, 2. the fact its always allied vs axis so atgm spam and apfsds renders the maus' armor useless, and 3. its gun isn't even good past 7.7 compared to the m103 which has a 303mm of pen ap round and a 380mm of pen heatfs round. Unless people are willing to give the maus the apheds round that it needs at 7.7, then it shouldn't be at 7.7 and be at 7.3 br maximum

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7 minutes ago, _Amatsukaze said:

@DaGreenBolt Are you seriously saying the Maus's gun isn't good?

Yes, as lets see gaijin nerfed the 128mm 60 degree angle pen at the same time with the long 88 60 degree angle nerf, tanks past 7.7 br have armor that will bounce a 128mm. The only tanks it can pen frontally are the chieftains at their lower glacis, the amx 30 brenus, type 74, and light tanks. Russians, American, French, and British medium and heavy tanks well relatively bounce the 128mm frontally. Unless they show their sides at you, you don't have a chance of penning

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The maus isn't remotely competitive. The armor is a joke, as you have to face a MASSIVE weak point to any tank you want to engage. Literally, the maus's turret center is larger than some tanks. Try to turn the turret away until an opponent fires? They just walz up under your awful gun depression and hide next to your tank. Then add in the awful map mobility and its not even comparable to other heavies at its own teir. Its like a tortoise with worse gun for its teir and much more obvious weak points. 

Bump it down to 7.0. You get a decent lineup at 7.0 then. Most of your games will be vs 7.3 anyways, due to russian clustering but at least you aren't facing 1960-70s tanks with a tank that was obsolete in 1945. 

It also has the slowest repair speed of any tank i have played. Kind of important when everyone is shooting at your breach and cannon just by coincidence of trying to hit your weak point. 50s repair time is pretty common with most of your crew still alive. 

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I have a better idea: make it a Premium/Event Vehicle. There is no place for this abortion in the main tree.

Edited by Peasant_wb
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2 minutes ago, Peasant_wb said:

I have a better idea: make it a Premium. There is no place for this abortion in the main tree.

 

This ^^ or just remove it and replace it with something else the Maus just isn't competitive and lowering its BR will just create issues to be honest. 7.3 might be doable but any lower would be a big No.

 

At any rate I think they should just remove it and replace it with something else. The dev's did mention about doing something similar with the 105mm Tiger 2

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Maus would be absurd if it got 6.7-7.0 BR. I can only imagine the fun of facing it with a M4A3E2(76) or a M26 Pershing, any of the T-44 variants, any of the IS-2 variants or almost all same/lower tier tanks. In fact many higher tier tanks like an IS-3/IS-6 or the early models of T-54 could hardly damage it. The early T-54 models need to hit the flat part of the turret face and then highroll to damage it. If there's a slight-to-moderate angle and the Maus isn't looking directly at you the chance becomes non-existent. How stupid would it be if 1.0 BRs higher tank couldn't penetrate a 6.7 tank? Furthermore Maus almost never gets 1-shot from frontal penetrations so just highrolling and penetrating a shell wouldn't likely do more than kill 1-2 crew members and maybe damage the breech.

 

The tank and it would be the new bots' favorite where they just drive forwards and get better results than they deserve because their tank simply cannot be damaged by most of the enemy team. You'd see "super fun" Maus squads ruining the games for everyone else in 6.7-7.0 battles and nobody would have any fun.


The problem with minmax tanks like Maus is that they are extremely difficult to balance. That's why they are usually left a little bit underwhelming because if you buff them and make them competitive you really hurt the gameplay by creating lots of "no play" situations where the enemies just can't do anything to it.

 

I don't understand why people get so emotional over Maus. First they grind a super slow WW II era tank with thick, flat armor that faces lots of post-war tanks with chemical shells that can deal with it pretty easily. The reason why its BR is so high is because its armor is immune to almost everything up to 7.3 and even many 7.7 tanks and these players know this. Basically they know exactly what they are getting yet they still walk into the trap. Plus the Maus is also a highly optional tank that's easy to skip without any loss. Nobody is forced to suffer in it if they don't enjoy the gameplay. It's just a high variance troll tank that's impossible to balance. I rather have it being slaughtered by the chemical shells than see players play this tank and just camp with it as top tier because it's so damn easy and forgiving. And like with Panthers and Tigers we would see the "it's too slow for anything else" excuse and have terrible players with good KD ratios sitting in their spawn, being invulnerable to almost all enemy guns. God that would be a disease for the gameplay.

 

I just wrote "7.3 might be doable" and wondered why it looked so familiar and the post above mine used the exact same words... Anyway even at 7.3 it would regularly ruin games for the hapless 6.3-6.7 tanks that just couldn't deal with it. Removing the tank is also pointless - like I said above it's an easy tank to skip. Just keep it as it is and let those players suffer who want to.

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4 minutes ago, Per_Saukko said:

Maus would be absurd if it got 6.7-7.0 BR.

 

^^^ Agree 100%

 

I know we are here on the official forum where facts don't really matter, but for the record I'll note that Maus has a better KDR in RB than both the M103 and IS-4M.

 

Because it represents such an extreme and ultimately stillborn approach to tank design, it will always be a situational vehicle. It's not flexible at all and is worthless in an uptier...all true. So people need to consider just playing it in the right situation instead of asking for the impossible: a BR where it will be more broadly useful without mercilessly clubbing everyone.

 

Edited by MattS93
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This is hardly what I would call useless ammo.

 

Nevermind how there are tanks bellow 7.7 that either don't use HEAT-FS at all and either need to use APDS or APCR, both shells that are remarkably worthless against the Maus due to the poor post penetration and needing to pick up individual modules and crew members. 

 

Nevermind how some tanks best usable shells like the US long 90mm for tanks like the, IS-2 Mod 1944, IS-3, T32 and Super Pershing can't even penetrate the front at all without using APCR and the main shells are barely able to penetrate the side hull and still incapable of penetrating the side turret. 

 

Also, the Maus is hardly the only 7.7 tank being shafted by the 8.7 blackhole. 

 

Do you really think it is fun to drive US/UK 7.7 tanks against Russian/German 8.7s while barely having any 8.7 and even 8.3 tanks worth to use on your team?

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The tank cannot really drop below 7.3 in its current state and with the current state of APCR, APDS, HEATFS, and HESH. 

 

What we need is total reform of how ammunition works, alongside fixing all the bug reports pertaining to incorrect armor penetration ability. Postpen of all the above rounds also needs to increase - none should be below current solid AP levels of spalling. 

 

Then, tanks all need structural damage thresholds so that if a sufficiently high energy round strikes a tank it instantly dies from hull failure or the turret being sheared clean off.

 

Then even a US 76 or 17pdr could fire HVAP/sabot at the turret face, pen, do good postpen damage to kill 2-3 guys and fry the breech. Then meanwhile a 90mm or 20pdr would take only two shots at most to kill one. And that’s just talking about crew and not turret ammorack potential. Yes the Maus would be able to angle and block those rounds - its not supposed to be easy to pen a heavy tank frontally in an uptier, HEATFS power creep has just lulled us all into a false sense of security that we’re supposed to be able to do that all the time. It would need to angle a lot more to have a chance at deflecting the 90mm M3 HVAP, while the long 90 HVAP would just obliterate it regardless of its angle. Meanwhile for Britain the 20pdr would also obliterate a Maus frontally even from considerable angles. Finally Britain would have an ultimate trump card via structural failure in the form of the FV4005 Stage II - if that were to hit a Maus anywhere other than the gun barrel it would instakill the tank. America’s trump card would be having the T28 and T95 also at 6.7 to be essentially a wall the Maus cannot pen with ease, only the experimental APHEDS would maybe be able to pen either of those and even then only at relatively short range. But, if reform of APHE postpen spalling was also done alongside fixing all the other ammo types, then the mythical PzGr39 TS likely would not oneshot a T28/95 unless hitting the ammo stores even if it penned. 

 

The Maus would be hard to kill but not as pathetically easy to kill as it is now. Most of its opponents would be easier to kill with the main gun than currently. The current two round types would retain most of their insane postpen due to the sheer size of the explosive mass, while the APHEDS would have postpen more like a 90mm AP round with an added fragmentation ring perpendicular to shell path, since its just a really really high velocity long 88 shell. Though it would also benefit from the structural failure change since its HE is large enough to cause such failure on some of the weaker tanks it could face that currently do not hull break. 

 

We just need all the ammunition types ingame properly modelled already. No more need exists for artificial nerfs. If anything, proper ammo modelling would benefit the game by opening up sensible gaps in the current tech trees with which to add appropriate vehicles into. We’ve got almost perfectly modern tanks, at best we could see the M1A1, T-14 Armata, Leopard 3, Challenger 2/3, and whatever is currently in service with Italy, France, and Japan. Then we’d have to go back to the WWII roots of the game.

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Yes, make the maus 6.7!

So i can club everything in my maus&panther 2 lineup! Maybe put the 10.5 tiger there aswell. U know just to spice it up again :D.

 

if u guys refuse to learn a tank, i appreciate the downtier. Im having too much fun with germany since last br adjustments. Keep the downtiers coming! Maybe pz 4 g to 3.3? Yes?

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3 hours ago, Slayer3XD said:

This is hardly what I would call useless ammo.

 

Nevermind how there are tanks bellow 7.7 that either don't use HEAT-FS at all and either need to use APDS or APCR, both shells that are remarkably worthless against the Maus due to the poor post penetration and needing to pick up individual modules and crew members. 

 

Nevermind how some tanks best usable shells like the US long 90mm for tanks like the, IS-2 Mod 1944, IS-3, T32 and Super Pershing can't even penetrate the front at all without using APCR and the main shells are barely able to penetrate the side hull and still incapable of penetrating the side turret. 

 

Also, the Maus is hardly the only 7.7 tank being shafted by the 8.7 blackhole. 

 

Do you really think it is fun to drive US/UK 7.7 tanks against Russian/German 8.7s while barely having any 8.7 and even 8.3 tanks worth to use on your team?

As I have said past 7.7 br, the maus gun becomes irrelavent, it can kill 7.7 tanks put tanks above 7.7br u cant even pen them, except for the chieftains lfp and you realize that other 7.7s have a better chance than the maus cause unlike the maus, they are able to penetrate 8.7 tanks with stock apds. I have had no trouble killing the maus using apds in the magach 3.

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Meanwhile, i was killed by AA at 100m in my maus after my gun barrel was broken by another tank. AA can shot trap into the 20mm deck plates and set the radiator on fire. Because, you know, thats how radiators work. 
If you have actually faced mauses in a fight, they are like training tanks. Their every move is choreographed. Very slow speed and glacial turning, turret facing is easy to determine by glancing, turret rotation is very slow and tanks can reasonably easily outrun the turret rotation if he can't also hull traverse (on hills, tracked, rough ground, rubble, ect). They are also incredibly easy to spot at any distance in any cover. 

If you are playing as is6 or is3 and having difficulty with penning a maus, thats a l2p issue. Turret face is 220mm flat and one of the largest weak points of any tank in the game. Or just aim at the gun barrel, as the repair is absurdly long and its an incredibly easy target to hit. I would rather face a maus then an is6/IS3 in almost any tank in this game. 

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1 hour ago, Zephoid said:

Meanwhile, i was killed by AA at 100m in my maus after my gun barrel was broken by another tank. AA can shot trap into the 20mm deck plates and set the radiator on fire. Because, you know, thats how radiators work. 
If you have actually faced mauses in a fight, they are like training tanks. Their every move is choreographed. Very slow speed and glacial turning, turret facing is easy to determine by glancing, turret rotation is very slow and tanks can reasonably easily outrun the turret rotation if he can't also hull traverse (on hills, tracked, rough ground, rubble, ect). They are also incredibly easy to spot at any distance in any cover. 

If you are playing as is6 or is3 and having difficulty with penning a maus, thats a l2p issue. Turret face is 220mm flat and one of the largest weak points of any tank in the game. Or just aim at the gun barrel, as the repair is absurdly long and its an incredibly easy target to hit. I would rather face a maus then an is6/IS3 in almost any tank in this game. 

Funny thing is when im in a 6.7 tank and I see a maus, im not even scared as one the turret is super easy to pen with T34 ap round, same with the T29, 2. I can just shoot the gun barrel and flank. I hate is6s more than is3s as they have the most trollish weakspot ever, it will pen but optics will eat the shell like its nothing. Many people know that the is6 is 7.7 material. 

But with what you pretty much said I agree

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13 minutes ago, DaGreenBolt said:

Funny thing is when im in a 6.7 tank and I see a maus, im not even scared as one the turret is super easy to pen with T34 ap round, same with the T29, 2. I can just shoot the gun barrel and flank. I hate is6s more than is3s as they have the most trollish weakspot ever, it will pen but optics will eat the shell like its nothing. Many people know that the is6 is 7.7 material. 

But with what you pretty much said I agree

I own a fully spaded Maus and have personally penned them using the Bulldog and T34 without any issue whatsoever. Hell I even killed one using a T34, snuck up behind it, shot back of turret, he slowly turned his turret around, and I shot the gunner side out again for a kill. 

 

People who say its so hard to kill are fooling themselves. The only reason I’ve had good games in it is:

1) camping in unexpected spots to catch people off guard

2) using the rangefinder to help counteract the bad gun zoom

3) spamming smoke shells to deny the enemy the ability to see or hit my weak spots

4) stock tanks aren’t able to pen me at all (T32, T92, Super Pershing, IS-3/4M, IS-6 isn’t stock but can’t pen it at all except by glancing HE through the left radiator to set off ammo, etc etc)

 

And then of course vengeful suicidal planes have accounted for at least a third of my deaths in it.

 

And if its already this easy to kill now, imagine how easy it would be to kill if all APCR, APDS, HEATFS, and HESH were doing proper pen and postpen. Every 5.7 tank would not struggle much if at all to frontally pen it, and every 6.7 tank would utterly annihilate it, potentially making it unsuitable for even 6.7. Yes I’m serious here. And as for the E-100, its got much thinner spaced side armor so that after taking a few shots to blow off the skirts its even easier to kill than a Maus is, while lacking the trollish reverse speed. 

Edited by MH4UAstragon
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23 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

I own a fully spaded Maus and have personally penned them using the Bulldog and T34 without any issue whatsoever. Hell I even killed one using a T34, snuck up behind it, shot back of turret, he slowly turned his turret around, and I shot the gunner side out again for a kill. 

 

People who say its so hard to kill are fooling themselves. The only reason I’ve had good games in it is:

1) camping in unexpected spots to catch people off guard

2) using the rangefinder to help counteract the bad gun zoom

3) spamming smoke shells to deny the enemy the ability to see or hit my weak spots

4) stock tanks aren’t able to pen me at all (T32, T92, Super Pershing, IS-3/4M, IS-6 isn’t stock but can’t pen it at all except by glancing HE through the left radiator to set off ammo, etc etc)

 

And then of course vengeful suicidal planes have accounted for at least a third of my deaths in it.

 

And if its already this easy to kill now, imagine how easy it would be to kill if all APCR, APDS, HEATFS, and HESH were doing proper pen and postpen. Every 5.7 tank would not struggle much if at all to frontally pen it, and every 6.7 tank would utterly annihilate it, potentially making it unsuitable for even 6.7. Yes I’m serious here. And as for the E-100, its got much thinner spaced side armor so that after taking a few shots to blow off the skirts its even easier to kill than a Maus is, while lacking the trollish reverse speed. 

 

Dude, you have 1k more posts than battles overall, this is amusing :D

 

I would be up for Maus going to 7.3 to see how really would it be affecting things around.

I remember that one time (back when Pershing was 6.7 and Maus was introduced) when it drove at me.It even gave me the courtesy of first shot.

 

So I shot APCR throgh turret cheek where the gunner sits. He turned yellow, then I got kaboomed. So yeah, APCR would need a little love.

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On 02/12/2018 at 19:35, Zephoid said:

Meanwhile, i was killed by AA at 100m in my maus after my gun barrel was broken by another tank. AA can shot trap into the 20mm deck plates and set the radiator on fire. Because, you know, thats how radiators work. 
If you have actually faced mauses in a fight, they are like training tanks. Their every move is choreographed. Very slow speed and glacial turning, turret facing is easy to determine by glancing, turret rotation is very slow and tanks can reasonably easily outrun the turret rotation if he can't also hull traverse (on hills, tracked, rough ground, rubble, ect). They are also incredibly easy to spot at any distance in any cover. 

If you are playing as is6 or is3 and having difficulty with penning a maus, thats a l2p issue. Turret face is 220mm flat and one of the largest weak points of any tank in the game. Or just aim at the gun barrel, as the repair is absurdly long and its an incredibly easy target to hit. I would rather face a maus then an is6/IS3 in almost any tank in this game. 

 

It's funny how always the people telling others to learn to play want to see tanks like Maus being completely retardproof and so forgiving that you can drive through an open field with it without being damaged anywhere. Think of A cap of Kursk.

 

Maus isn't like a training tank. It angles its armor, positions itself and shoots back. Even though the reload is long the gun is extremely punchy and and it reliably 1-shots anything it goes through, which is most tanks it faces. The only common problem tank I can think of is T-54(1947) and even that thing is penetrable and it can't hurt you back anyway. The gun has good muzzle velocity and little drop-off, making it easy to hit the enemies even very far away. The gun should command a good amount of respect from everyone. It even shoots back twice if you play something without an armor(such as the super scary AA guns you mentioned). A decent Maus player tries to put himself in a situation where he doesn't get flanked too easily. This is a very basic concept for slow tanks, you want to make sure you always have some back-up so the enemies won't be able to farm your sides cheaply. Besides with Maus there are lots of tanks that can't even penetrate your side if it isn't dead-flat so even if the player fails in grasping this simple concept he will still do better on it than he would with something that has penetrable side armor. Of course there are times when all your teammates die but usually with some decent positional awareness you can make it difficult or unprofitable for the enemies to make yolo runs to get your side. 

 

Of course the number of the "decent Maus players" that I am referring to is increasingly low simply because most decent to advanced players simply don't want to waste their skill advantage by playing a super slow tank with a low skill cap. 

 

If you are playing an IS-6 or IS-3 and are having difficulty penning a Maus then... wait, what did you just say? Since I consider myself not-total-trash quality player I went to the armor penetration model and compared it against my IS-6 which has indeed struggled at penetrating Maus.. here are the results. With the top shell I managed to find this tiny area in the completely unangled Maus that I can penetrate with a low chance(meaning if I get a high penetration roll). If I move my cursor by 1-2 pixels it turns red. The Maus is also a much taller tank than the Russian heavies which makes shot trapping from any kind of range very difficult. Furthermore shot trapping outside of point blank range(meaning basically 100m) is very unreliable because if your shot misses by a pixel it no longer bounces in the way you want and you are stuck with your glacial reload with no damage done. This of course assumes that you aimed your shot perfectly which even top players can't do every time. And to make things even worse, shot trapping a Maus doesn't even close to always kill it.

 

These screenshots are taken using the top shell of IS-6 from 300m which I consider to be close range:

 

MausIS6.png.7be3e6b42d4f7c7f5a4b5db66918

 

Clearly if you can't highroll in every penetration roll or if you can't get super flat side shots every time you feel like, you need to learn to play. I mean the Maus is definitely a very unforgiving tank and everyone who can't easily kill it with 200 pen gun is just a trash player. It's totally not a super easy tank for bots who just like to drive forward and shoot things without any situational awareness.

 

I am not going to say Maus is overpowered or that I particularly struggle in dealing with them. Since it's big and slow it in many cases can be avoided and thankfully it mostly attracts bad players so encountering the occasional good player playing it as a troll tank is quite uncommon. But it's plain outrageous to claim that it's easy to penetrate with kinetic shells and suggesting everyone who fails at that needs to "learn to play" when it's virtually immune against such shells.

Edited by Per_Saukko
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On 02/12/2018 at 14:41, CrossEyedN00b said:

 

Dude, you have 1k more posts than battles overall, this is amusing :D

 

I would be up for Maus going to 7.3 to see how really would it be affecting things around.

I remember that one time (back when Pershing was 6.7 and Maus was introduced) when it drove at me.It even gave me the courtesy of first shot.

 

So I shot APCR throgh turret cheek where the gunner sits. He turned yellow, then I got kaboomed. So yeah, APCR would need a little love.

Exactly, APCR should get a large spall buff, even more so for US HVAP, and the pen buff to historical levels should be also immense.

 

With 317mm at point blank and good spalling, a Pershing would have no issues whatsoever penning even a properly modelled Maus’s unangled turret face. 

 

And yes, I’m pretty active on here, aren’t I? :P

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1 hour ago, Per_Saukko said:

 

It's funny how always the people telling others to learn to play want to see tanks like Maus being completely retardproof and so forgiving that you can drive through an open field with it without being damaged anywhere. Think of A cap of Kursk.

 

Maus isn't like a training tank. It angles its armor, positions itself and shoots back. Even though the reload is long the gun is extremely punchy and and it reliably 1-shots anything it goes through, which is most tanks it faces. The only common problem tank I can think of is T-54(1947) and even that thing is penetrable and it can't hurt you back anyway. The gun has good muzzle velocity and little drop-off, making it easy to hit the enemies even very far away. The gun should command a good amount of respect from everyone. It even shoots back twice if you play something without an armor(such as the super scary AA guns you mentioned). A decent Maus player tries to put himself in a situation where he doesn't get flanked too easily. This is a very basic concept for slow tanks, you want to make sure you always have some back-up so the enemies won't be able to farm your sides cheaply. Besides with Maus there are lots of tanks that can't even penetrate your side if it isn't dead-flat so even if the player fails in grasping this simple concept he will still do better on it than he would with something that has penetrable side armor. Of course there are times when all your teammates die but usually with some decent positional awareness you can make it difficult or unprofitable for the enemies to make yolo runs to get your side. 

 

Of course the number of the "decent Maus players" that I am referring to is increasingly low simply because most decent to advanced players simply don't want to waste their skill advantage by playing a super slow tank with a low skill cap. 

 

If you are playing an IS-6 or IS-3 and are having difficulty penning a Maus then... wait, what did you just say? Since I consider myself not-total-trash quality player I went to the armor penetration model and compared it against my IS-6 which has indeed struggled at penetrating Maus.. here are the results. With the top shell I managed to find this tiny area in the completely unangled Maus that I can penetrate with a low chance(meaning if I get a high penetration roll). If I move my cursor by 1-2 pixels it turns red. The Maus is also a much taller tank than the Russian heavies which makes shot trapping from any kind of range very difficult. Furthermore shot trapping outside of point blank range(meaning basically 100m) is very unreliable because if your shot misses by a pixel it no longer bounces in the way you want and you are stuck with your glacial reload with no damage done. This of course assumes that you aimed your shot perfectly which even top players can't do every time. And to make things even worse, shot trapping a Maus doesn't even close to always kill it.

 

These screenshots are taken using the top shell of IS-6 from 300m which I consider to be close range:

 

MausIS6.png.7be3e6b42d4f7c7f5a4b5db66918

 

Clearly if you can't highroll in every penetration roll or if you can't get super flat side shots every time you feel like, you need to learn to play. I mean the Maus is definitely a very unforgiving tank and everyone who can't easily kill it with 200 pen gun is just a trash player. It's totally not a super easy tank for bots who just like to drive forward and shoot things without any situational awareness.

 

I am not going to say Maus is overpowered or that I particularly struggle in dealing with them. Since it's big and slow it in many cases can be avoided and thankfully it mostly attracts bad players so encountering the occasional good player playing it as a troll tank is quite uncommon. But it's plain outrageous to claim that it's easy to penetrate with kinetic shells and suggesting everyone who fails at that needs to "learn to play" when it's virtually immune against such shells.

The Maus’s weakness vs Russian 122s is actually HE on the radiator under the turret corner above the marked spot in those pictures. Splashes through radiator vent and reliably ignites ammo so long as you hit the spot. 

 

It WAS designed to be essentially immune to Russian guns though, so Russia would have the toughest time dealing with it for very good reason. All the more reason to take less heavy tanks and more mediums/fast HEAT-spewing TDs in the event you see one.

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