silverkiller84

the ammunition dilemma (AP, EP, EPS, etc...)

Gaijin for now has been tight lipped about italian ammunition, except for saying that they have a lot of explosive filler, but there hasn't been anything on the other shells

whe have seen AP and EPS on the P40, ap (even if it's the wrong one) sport low-to-decent penetration and nuclear warhead damage, EPS mediocre penetration...
but what about anti air HE (they did use manual fuze, and often used it as anti tank by removing the fuze, they just lobbed he as solid ap), and, mostly important EP shells, that could give the italian TT an interesting flavour (and the long awaited HESH rework)?
for those who don't know, EP where a sort of home made proto HESH
Cappellano say that those shells had a squashing effect, like the modern HESH, that removed the internal part of the armor and sprayed it in the crew compartment. He noted that the design was not from german experience and that the munroe effect was already knew in the industry

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even german 75mm gr Hl 38 C has 115mm max penetration now, while 75mm EPS should have the highest WWII penetration, EPS  has only 100mm.

 

edit: I confused 75mm gr 38 HL/C with 105mm gr 39 HL/C

Edited by CatWeaZle
wrong statement
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I found this

ITA75mmEPS.thumb.jpg.9aa6db07800f79a62ae

 

This is referring to the EPS round that has 120mm penetration from 90 degrees, also 70mm penetration is from a 60 degree angle.Current in-game it is 50mm at 60 degree and 100mm at 90 degree. That is a huge difference at BR 3.3 and up , because there are vehicles with 60mm+ base armor so you fail to penetrate very often were you should have.

If semovente 75/18 gets too strong with real EPS then just give it EP only (75mm pen at 100m (HESH)).

Edited by CatWeaZle
75/18
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2 hours ago, CatWeaZle said:

100mm at 90 degree.

In the book is specified "it's possible". It's not a certain data. A 75mm heat with that penetration is not impossible but it can be an easy mistake of data mixed with the 105mm heat that had that penetration value

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https://wargametechnology.weebly.com/cruiser-contro-carri-italiani.html

 

Interesting discussion, but only a question...

Can someone explain to me why that source report absurd penetrations about the 47 mm EP projectile?

I have always read that E.P. round were comparable to an HESH projectile, so it seems strange that a caliber so reduced could have penetration values higher than 110 mm, and moreover that these values decrease as the distance increases. It seems the behavior of an amor piercing bullet, not an explosive-based projectile.

 

The penetration of EP and EPS bullets increases with the enlargement of the caliber, so I think it is wrong to say that a 47 EP penetrates more than a 75.

 

Another question, more historical, Is it true that the Regio Esercito was studying a modern 47 cannon after 47/40, called 47/48?

 

 

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On 09/12/2019 at 15:12, paulassos5 said:

 

 

Another question, more historical, Is it true that the Regio Esercito was studying a modern 47 cannon after 47/40, called 47/48?

 

 

Yes, the 47/48 was built by Ansaldo and tested between 1942-1943 in competition with a Breda 57/54 gun, both were discarded as the Army considered at the time  the 75 mm as necessary for an anti-tank weapon.

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12 hours ago, paulassos5 said:

Thanks for the reply, maybe this is not the right discussion, but do you have any sources about these guns? I never found anything.

Yes, various sources speak of these cannons but all do not provide much technical data, most repeat the same few informations.

 

For the Ansaldo 47/48 the data available are:

Overall weight (gun in field mounting): 740 kg

Muzzle velocity: 819-820 m/s

Estimated maximum perforation: 70 mm at 0° (distance not specified) 

 

Photo from." Storia della artiglieria italiana, Vol XV" 

 

 


KaOlvt2.jpg 

 

 

No technical data available (as far as I know) on the Breda 57/54, except that it looks like an enlarged version of the 47/32 and  it was equipped with an automatic loading mechanism similar to that of the Breda 65/58 AA gun (gun proposed by Breda in competition with the Ansaldo-OTO 65/58 and Caproni-Isotta Fraschini 65/58 guns, the winner was the Ansaldo-OTO in its final form 65/64).

 

Photo from "Alle origini della Breda Meccanica Bresciana, atlante fotografico" 

NOTE: the gun is on a provisional mounting at the shooting range for tests. 

 

 


q4mwq0W.jpg 

 

 

Sources: Le artiglierie del Regio Esercito nella seconda guerra mondiale, F. Cappellano

               Le armi della fanteria italiana 1919-1945, F. Cappellano, N. Pignato

               Alle origini della Breda Meccanica Bresciana, atlante fotografico, A. Curami, P. Ferrari, A. Rastelli

               Il Regio Esercito alla vigilia dell'8 settembre 1943, F. Cappellano- N. Pignato

               Andare contro i carri armati,  F. Cappellano- N. Pignato 

               Storia della artiglieria italiana, Vol XV, various authors.

Edited by qwert96
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On 20/12/2019 at 00:46, qwert96 said:

Yes, various sources speak of these cannons but all do not provide much technical data, most repeat the same few informations.

 

Sources: Le artiglierie del Regio Esercito nella seconda guerra mondiale, F. Cappellano

               Le armi della fanteria italiana 1919-1945, F. Cappellano, N. Pignato

               Alle origini della Breda Meccanica Bresciana, atlante fotografico, A. Curami, P. Ferrari, A. Rastelli

               Il Regio Esercito alla vigilia dell'8 settembre 1943, F. Cappellano- N. Pignato

               Andare contro i carri armati,  F. Cappellano- N. Pignato 

               Storia della artiglieria italiana, Vol XV, various authors.

 

Grazie Mille!!!

 

I had never seen them before. If I can, I will try to get these books, I am very interested about the Italian artillery of the ww2 era. I didn't know that Italy had planned

so many anti-tank firearms.
The 47/48 reminds me the Japanese anti-tank type 1, a small but modern cannon. 

 

Returning to the topic, I'd like to try out EP ammunition in game, at least to increase the variety.

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When Gaijin is going to fix the HEAT ammunition of the Italian tanks? It is desperate to play with the 105/25 semovente and not be able to do anything harm because of the extremely bad modeling of his HEAT if that adds 10 seconds of reload.

The gaijin mania of not fixing the initial HEAT bullets only serves to convert certain tanks is useless things, m4a3 105, stuh42, semovente 105, su122, all are bad tanks for the stupid HEAT mechanic.

The HEAT only works when the canyon irrigates in less than 5 seconds, if more you are lost.

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23 hours ago, poopooo said:

When Gaijin is going to fix the HEAT ammunition of the Italian tanks? It is desperate to play with the 105/25 semovente and not be able to do anything harm because of the extremely bad modeling of his HEAT if that adds 10 seconds of reload.

The gaijin mania of not fixing the initial HEAT bullets only serves to convert certain tanks is useless things, m4a3 105, stuh42, semovente 105, su122, all are bad tanks for the stupid HEAT mechanic.

The HEAT only works when the canyon irrigates in less than 5 seconds, if more you are lost.

 

I think the HEAT mechanic works now, when i bought P40 and semovente Leoncello , i nearly 1 hitted everything even KVs but around 1 year later it changed, i think i pinned down a KV with 15 75mm EPS hits a half year ago until a panzerIV saved him from more, then i droped the P40. Semovente still works vs KV but its more risky to recive a return fire. I think its the low penetration values. check this source again (it state many other sources): https://wargametechnology.weebly.com/cruiser-contro-carri-italiani.html

 

the one of tariff.net (wich is sadly down):

105/25 EPS mod.43 at 0 degrees = 140mm penetration and at 30 degrees 121mm penetration

75/18 or 75/32 EPS at 0 degrees = 120mm penetration and at 30 degrees 70mm penetration

 

the 105/25 EPS mod.43 had prolly even higher potenzial if you check  the difference of the 75mm and 105mm from 30 degree to 0 degree or the shell weight.

 

compare:

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2-italy-anti-tank-weapons-60mm-lanciabombe/

60mm EPS mod.43:

shell weight: 0,85 kg !!!

penetration: 70mm (0 degrees i think)

 

 

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7 hours ago, CatWeaZle said:

 

I think the HEAT mechanic works now, when i bought P40 and semovente Leoncello , i nearly 1 hitted everything even KVs but around 1 year later it changed, i think i pinned down a KV with 15 75mm EPS hits a half year ago until a panzerIV saved him from more, then i droped the P40. Semovente still works vs KV but its more risky to recive a return fire. I think its the low penetration values. check this source again (it state many other sources): https://wargametechnology.weebly.com/cruiser-contro-carri-italiani.html

 

the one of tariff.net (wich is sadly down):

105/25 EPS mod.43 at 0 degrees = 140mm penetration and at 30 degrees 121mm penetration

75/18 or 75/32 EPS at 0 degrees = 120mm penetration and at 30 degrees 70mm penetration

 

the 105/25 EPS mod.43 had prolly even higher potenzial if you check  the difference of the 75mm and 105mm from 30 degree to 0 degree or the shell weight.

 

compare:

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2-italy-anti-tank-weapons-60mm-lanciabombe/

60mm EPS mod.43:

shell weight: 0,85 kg !!!

penetration: 70mm (0 degrees i think)

 

 

The biggest problem is the little damage that the HEAT does, if it pierces but does not do any harm you are a dead man, since for example with the semovente 105, or the stuh42 or sherman of 105 they have a recharge of 10 seconds.

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On 21/12/2019 at 19:03, paulassos5 said:

 

Grazie Mille!!!



 

I had never seen them before. If I can, I will try to get these books, I am very interested about the Italian artillery of the ww2 era. I didn't know that Italy had planned

so many anti-tank firearms.
The 47/48 reminds me the Japanese anti-tank type 1, a small but modern cannon. 

 

Returning to the topic, I'd like to try out EP ammunition in game, at least to increase the variety.

You are welcome.

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On 24/12/2019 at 17:43, qwert96 said:

You are welcome.

Thank you

 

 

Any chance to have EP ammo in play soon? I think they could be an interesting option for Italian low-tier vehicles.

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On 30/12/2019 at 15:32, paulassos5 said:

Thank you

 

 

Any chance to have EP ammo in play soon? I think they could be an interesting option for Italian low-tier vehicles.

The best for italian low-tier is the fix of penetration and damage of HEAT shells.

If they introduce the EP ammunition, it should be after also setting the HESH, although it would be rare, since Gaijin should fix absolutely all types of projectiles in the game since their penetration and damage is extremely false and unreal, but of course, that would involve doing Something good for the game, and that they can't afford, hehe.
 
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Perhaps an adjustment to the low-level Italian EPS could improve the situation, but I would be curious to try the EP the same, they would certainly be poor but they could have the possibility to make damage even in case non-penetration. It would be interesting to try.

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Is there in resource on the current EPS values , i think they are fantasy . Italians didnt have APCR in WWII they had EP and EPS and that is nerfed or not given , its like germany without any pzgr. PzGr. 40 (or one with the name but not the performance).

In the last 2 month when i played my BR 4.3 line (Both 90mm , the 105mm , the 75/46) i face Jumbo spam , T34-57 is most common T34, KV-1 L11 sometimes zis5 and the new sweden stuff. I cant kill Jumbos or KVs from front ,  they need side hits and the only EPS wich is barely usefull is the 105mm (wich has the stats wich the 75mm should have) . semovente 105 (BR 3.0) is clearly more usefull than P40 (BR 3.3) in the BR 4.0+ . not mention the messed up AA line wich is over a year now R3 doesnt belong there , M42 needs longer burst.

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1 hour ago, CatWeaZle said:

Is there in resource on the current EPS values , i think they are fantasy . Italians didnt have APCR in WWII they had EP and EPS and that is nerfed or not given , its like germany without any pzgr. PzGr. 40 (or one with the name but not the performance).

In the last 2 month when i played my BR 4.3 line (Both 90mm , the 105mm , the 75/46) i face Jumbo spam , T34-57 is most common T34, KV-1 L11 sometimes zis5 and the new sweden stuff. I cant kill Jumbos or KVs from front ,  they need side hits and the only EPS wich is barely usefull is the 105mm (wich has the stats wich the 75mm should have) . semovente 105 (BR 3.0) is clearly more usefull than P40 (BR 3.3) in the BR 4.0+ . not mention the messed up AA line wich is over a year now R3 doesnt belong there , M42 needs longer burst.

 

You just have to aim for the cheeks on the KV-1, even the 75/46 will go though bit. Although I agree, something must be done about Italian ammo. 

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3 hours ago, CatWeaZle said:

Is there in resource on the current EPS values , i think they are fantasy . Italians didnt have APCR in WWII they had EP and EPS and that is nerfed or not given , its like germany without any pzgr. PzGr. 40 (or one with the name but not the performance).

In the last 2 month when i played my BR 4.3 line (Both 90mm , the 105mm , the 75/46) i face Jumbo spam , T34-57 is most common T34, KV-1 L11 sometimes zis5 and the new sweden stuff. I cant kill Jumbos or KVs from front ,  they need side hits and the only EPS wich is barely usefull is the 105mm (wich has the stats wich the 75mm should have) . semovente 105 (BR 3.0) is clearly more usefull than P40 (BR 3.3) in the BR 4.0+ . not mention the messed up AA line wich is over a year now R3 doesnt belong there , M42 needs longer burst.

Definitely not fantasy, sources put the penetration value like it is in-game, if you compare EPS to German HEAT of the same caliber (Pz.IV and StuH) you'll see that EPS outperforms it across the board.

Problem is the way HEAT works in game, or rather how it doesn't work, that makes playing Italian vehicles that rely on EPS a chore. The only vehicle I enjoy is the 75/34 M43 since it's actually tanky for its BR.

But keep in mind that even if Gaijin rework HEAT shells it won't affect your 4.3 line-up much considering neither the 90mm nor the 75/46 have EPS.

Though i'd like to see actual historical stats for the 75/46 instead of the Pak40 copy we have now but I think that would actually be a nerf to that vehicle.

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24 minutes ago, zman901 said:

Definitely not fantasy, sources put the penetration value like it is in-game, if you compare EPS to German HEAT of the same caliber (Pz.IV and StuH) you'll see that EPS outperforms it across the board.

Problem is the way HEAT works in game, or rather how it doesn't work, that makes playing Italian vehicles that rely on EPS a chore. The only vehicle I enjoy is the 75/34 M43 since it's actually tanky for its BR.

But keep in mind that even if Gaijin rework HEAT shells it won't affect your 4.3 line-up much considering neither the 90mm nor the 75/46 have EPS.

Though i'd like to see actual historical stats for the 75/46 instead of the Pak40 copy we have now but I think that would actually be a nerf to that vehicle.

 

Info on the 75/46 seems impossible to be found. I wonder if it would really result in a nerf.

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