Smin1080p

[FEEDBACK] Minefield Ahead! - VS-8 & Mines Testing

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Hello everyone

 

Please leave your feedback and thoughts on the mines mechanic as well as any feedback spesific to the VS-8 below. 

 

Original Dev Blog Post: https://warthunder.com/en/news/5671-fleet-development-naval-mines-in-war-thunder-en

VS-8 & Mines Test: https://warthunder.com/en/news/5880-special-fleet-minefield-ahead-try-out-the-vs-8-en

 

Lets stay on topic please and take any other Naval related discussions elsewhere :salute: 

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In my opinion the 2 minute timer until they explode should be longer or unlimited.

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1 minute ago, magazine2 said:

In my opinion the 2 minute timer until they explode should be longer or unlimited.

 

The thinking behind this was so not to clog up the map too much. As you can imagine, a few VS-8s could quickly litter large areas of the whole maps with mines meaning a lot of vessels would be cut of in some ways for long periods of time, so it may be detrimental to Naval gameplay, but we will assess the feedback of this test and move forward accordingly based on Player opinion!

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2 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

 

The thinking behind this was so not to clog up the map too much. As you can imagine, a few VS-8s could quickly litter large areas of the whole maps with mines meaning a lot of vessels would be cut of in some ways for long periods of time, so it may be detrimental to Naval gameplay, but we will assess the feedback of this test and move forward accordingly based on Player opinion!

 

Understandable. 

 

Some counter options (if mines were given a longer or unlimited time before they explode) is a mine limit per team. For example, if 4 people on one team are using the VS-8, which is 64 mines in total (or other possible boats in the future that get added with mines) there could be a limit of mines used at once per team. For example a limit of 8 mines at a time per team and a message "The mine limit of 8 has been reached" can display if 8 mines has been reached. If one mine explodes from an enemy boat, another mine can be placed.

 

The reason I give these ideas is because mines, before they explode, are like depth charges with a longer timer, and can be shot much easier. 

 

Another idea is mines can only be placed in larger areas, (with an unlimited timer) such as open sea areas, instead of areas that are tighter together with small islands close together, or can only be placed near cap zones or away from cap zones.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Smin1080p said:

a few VS-8s could quickly litter large areas of the whole maps with mines

does it mean "maps are to small" maybe ? :) 

17 minutes ago, magazine2 said:

Another idea is mines can only be placed in larger areas, (with an unlimited timer) such as open sea areas, instead of areas that are tighter together with small islands close together, or can only be placed near cap zones or away from cap zones.

but... this is a point of placing mines!  u place it where u expect enemy to stomp on it!

 

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Or, just a crazy idea, you could use the mine sweeping gear on minesweepers to sweep the mines.

Spoiler

20181115214937_1.thumb.jpg.c918185e6a8c4

 

cause the timer on the mines make then entirely useless for defending anything. and offensive mine laying isn't possible if the enemy can attack you all the time.

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1 minute ago, LuftMaus said:

 

but... this is a point of placing mines!  u place it where u expect enemy to stomp on it!

 

 

I know, but it's just some ideas. In my opinion the mines will be hard to balance, but right now they're at a decent position I guess. 

 

They are similar to depth charges, basically the VS-8 is like a boat with lots of depth charges attached to it. Mines were deployed in the deep seas, and could stay their for months or even years on end waiting for a boat to go over it.

 

In my opinion, they will be either: useless (or not very useful) or very good, one or the other. If you're defending a cap zone with mines: the enemy can see them very easy if they're floating on the surface, and they can be destroyed super easy, top of that, the enemy knows that they'll explode in 2 minutes anyway.

 

Another idea would be that mines have a random explosion time option, maybe between 2 - 5 minutes? Of course this adds randomness and might even make them not very useful, but it's just a thought. 

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55 minutes ago, magazine2 said:

In my opinion the 2 minute timer until they explode should be longer or unlimited.

I concur, 2 Minutes is nothing really when ships traverse vast distances from point to point.

 

Why not counter an unlimited timer by allowing float planes (as an example) to spot them for teammates? Then they can be swiftly shot and destroyed...

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5 minutes ago, Universae said:

I concur, 2 Minutes is nothing really when ships traverse vast distances from point to point.

 

Why not counter an unlimited timer by allowing float planes (as an example) to spot them for teammates? Then they can be swiftly shot and destroyed...

 

Very good idea! Planes should be able to mark enemy mines and the red mine symbol above them appears for allies. (Above the water only?)

 

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Mines are now usless because 1 reason. 2 minutes is to little time for them. Put them at 4 minutes and mines will be great. And if you put them to 4 minutes dont alow big depth. 1 meter max so player can spot them. 

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1 hour ago, Lord_of_Sofa said:

use the mine sweeping gear on minesweepers to sweep the mines.


This would be AWESOME!  There are MANY vessels that already carry the equipment.

And perhaps patrol boats or maritime patrol aircraft could use the scouting mechanic (used with Light Tanks) to spot mines.  Could they actually be seen from the air IRL?

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The ship itself is absolute garbage and overtiered at 3.0. Too big too slow and too sluggish to actually be useful. Interesting mechanic but you're not able to execute it because you'll get killed before you even get close.

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23 minutes ago, lnVader said:

Interesting mechanic but you're not able to execute it because you'll get killed before you even get close.

And you can't stay away because the mines self destruct so fast.

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53 minutes ago, _Gertrude said:

And perhaps patrol boats or maritime patrol aircraft could use the scouting mechanic (used with Light Tanks) to spot mines.  Could they actually be seen from the air IRL?

 

Ys - aircraft had been used for mine spotting before WW1 even eg see http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/USN/Navy/Naval Avaition in World War I.pdf - they were used as part of exercises in 1913.

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Well, I guess you just need to add larger maps (with more tickets) and set the mine timer to unlimited. This also requires more larger ships...

This should solve the most balancing issues we have right now:

 

Cruisers - Can't cap fast enough (to less tickets)/easy target for hidden torpedo boats (to expensive to risk a death in the unclear terrain)

Destroyers - As cruisers, just more maneuverable 

PT boats - Easy targets for gunships and full auto cannons

Gunships/full auto - Many post war vehicles! Make a own Tier for them!

Mines - useless if you can't use them for the things they are supposed to be used...

 

In my opinion you should really think about the whole concept of small boats based matches. I'd really like long extended rounds (maybe a Sim Battle as long as enduring confrontation/a convoy mode maybe). You should not force the players to play small boats by having 66,666% of the capzones in a small unclear terrain, where a PT boat can reach both points in a few seconds, while the cruisers and destroyers have thrilling range fights. Sometimes the battle is over even before a cruiser which dominates the open sea can reach at least one zone after a fight. On 5.0 the team with more full auto guns usually wins the round, even if they are dominated on the open sea. Mines which can't even stop them for more than 2 minutes will not change anything. 

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I would say that the boat needs to be at a lower teir. most likely 2.0 or lower since its very fragile, big, and the speed does not help because of the size of the boat,

              Or

we make the mine timers go to infinite so that the mines are usefull.

as for the concern over the unlimited mine timer and it clogging up the map. It is a premium so it is going to be more rare mine so the clogging problem would most likely not be an issue. so after the trial period is over where there are a ton of them the timer should be set to infinite.

 

so for me it comes down to this

 

reduce the br to 2.0

           V.S

Increased mine timer

 

 

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the 2 minute timer needs to go.

It is difficult enough to find a good spot to lay your mines, and the 2 min timer makes it nearly impossible to archieve a kill.

 

 

otherwise I like the mines and would love to see the idea being expanded. (maybe even air droped mines??)

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10 hours ago, magazine2 said:

In my opinion the 2 minute timer until they explode should be longer or unlimited.

unlimited

 

why would they self destruct? 

 

we play in a game where TOW missles and torps continue on their merry way forever...

Edited by *memnoch1911
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10 hours ago, magazine2 said:

For example a limit of 8 mines at a time per team and a message "The mine limit of 8 has been reached" can display if 8 mines has been reached. If one mine explodes from an enemy boat, another mine can be placed

Griefers could use this and drop all their mine in spawn zone to prevent other players from their team from dropping theirs 

Also imagine you rush in a dangerous zone to drop your mines at perfect spot to get a message preventing you from dropping them right when are in position

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3 minutes ago, ALIEN109 said:

Griefers could use this and drop all their mine in spawn zone to prevent other players from their team from dropping theirs 

Also imagine you rush in a dangerous zone to drop your mines at perfect spot to get a message preventing you from dropping them right when are in position

 

Yeah there are implications for sure, to get around the placing them in spawn part maybe you can place them for 3 mins after the match starts, or they make it so you can't place mines near your spawn.

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2 hours ago, magazine2 said:

Yeah there are implications for sure, to get around the placing them in spawn part maybe you can place them for 3 mins after the match starts, or they make it so you can't place mines near your spawn.

 

Those restriction would only hurt mine layers. The first one to drop his mines might be the only one to ever drop mines in a game. The number of mines the ships in game could carry ranges from 6 to up to 80. One or two Destroyers who want to get rid of their explosive cargo could ruin the game for all dedicated mine layers.

 

If you don't allow mines near the spawn, inside the spawn is a different matter, you rob the mine layers two very effective tactics.

 

1. To wall in the enemy spawn. Difficult to pull off, but might be worth it.

2. To wall in their own spawn zone. Especially early in the match slow mine layers can't do much, but they can lay mines in the spawn zone. Why? Spawn campers.

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10 hours ago, Ameraldas said:

It is a premium so it is going to be more rare mine so the clogging problem would most likely not be an issue.

There is also a VS-8 in the regular tree

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24 minutes ago, ALIEN109 said:

There is also a VS-8 in the regular tree

Is there? where did you see that? pretty sure the VS-8 has been premium since it was dug up in the files 2 years or so ago

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Hello miners

 

I like the idea of the mines very much from a tactical point of view, but the present implementation is not satisfying in my eyes. Therefor I suggest a second parameter in addition to the water depth:
Add an activation time for the mines after waterdrop and keep the 2 min afterwards, till they explode.

 

Let me be a bit more specific:
Yesterday evening I had the chance, to place mines with the VS-8 during several missions.
The present period of 2 minutes is not long enough, without bringing yourself into danger of being killed during mine laying by enemy ships.
8-10 minutes would be helpful, but then there are way too many mines in the water (keep the game balanced).
A destroyer is at a velocity of 70km/h, which is a bit less than 20m/s. Without the cover of islands, you have to get at least as close as 2400m (120s x 20m/s = 2400m), to have a chance, to destroy it with your mines. For slower boats you even have to get closer. The velocity, armor and weapons of the VS-8 are not suited for such an approach. But I don’t suggest, changing these specifications, because the ship should stay as close as possible to it's historical pendant.

 

That’s why I suggest the following:

  • Stay with the present value of 2 min (or maybe increase it to 3 min), until the mines explode and
  • Add an additional parameter for the whole load of 16 mines, which the user could specify during briefing screen. The additional parameter adjusts the activation time of the mine, after it had been dropped into the water (e.g. 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 minutes)

This would reduce the risk of being killed during mine laying by enemy ships, would keep the balance of the gameplay and would add some tactical thoughts/challenges during briefing screen:

  • Where do I need to lay a mine field during the present situation, to get an tactical advantage for my allies?
  • When will the enemy arrive at that area?
  • How much time do I need, to get there?
  • Which activation time is necessary, to have a good chance of hitting the enemy and for myself, to retreat in a safe way.

 

In addition to the activation time parameter, I suggest the following 2 points:

  1. Mark the mines on the large map (not the mini map) for the own player's side. Then the chance of own players detonating the own mines is lower. Let’s use small dots, e.g. in orange color:
    • Light orange: mine is placed in low water depth
    • Orange: mine is in medium depth and
    • Dark Orange: mine is placed deeper
  2. Mark spotted enemy mines in a different color
  3. Reduce the battle rating of the VS-8 from 3.0 to 2.0 or 2.3

 

Keep on mining

John

:smile:


 

 

Edited by JohnDaScott
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