*tester188

17/12/18 [1.83.0.79] Japanese Ho-103 Ammo Italian Breda-SAFAT Ammo Copy Issue

1. The full name of the vehicle affected. If the problem is isolated to one difficulty setting (e.g. Simulator), specify which.

This issue affects all Japanese Army aircraft equipped with 12.7 mm Ho-103 fixed machine gun and Ho-104 flexible machine gun.

 

2. A detailed description of the issue you have or what you see as being erroneous regarding its representation in-game.

There is an issue in ammunition of Japanese Army 12.7 mm Ho-103/Ho-104 machine gun. In historical facts, Ho-103 used ammunition designed in Japan and ammunition imported from Italy. However, the Allied Forces intelligence reported that Ho-103 ammo is a copy of Italian ammo. Ho-103 ammo is not a simple copy, as it can use ammo that does not exist in Breda. In the current game only Allied Forces intelligence report is used as source. In my opinion, the developer misunderstood that Ho-103 and Breda-SAFAT are historically using the same ammo and the same belt. Within the game Ho-103 and Ho-104 continue to be in a state where Breda-Safat machine gun ammo and belt are simply copied. It is necessary to fix it to the ammo designed in Japan and the ammo belt combination used by the Japanese Army.

 

There are three Japanese ammunition used in battle.

  • AP-T - Type 1 Armor-piercing Tracer Cartridge (一式曳光徹甲弾)
    • Projectile Mass: 36.50 g
    • Muzzle Velocity: 780 m/s
    • Armor penetration: 12 mm at 300 m, 10 mm at 700 m

 

  • HE-I or IAI - Ma-103 High-explosive Cartridge (Fuzed HE-I) (マ一〇三 榴弾)
    • Projectile Mass: approximately 36.59 g
    • Muzzle Velocity: 780 m/s
    • Explosive type: RDX + Incendiary composition
    • Explosive mass: approximately  0.6 g + 1.45 g

 

  • SI or HE-I or AI - Ma-102 Special Incendiary Cartridge (Fuzeless HE-I) (マ一〇二 特殊焼夷弾)
    • Projectile Mass: approximately 36.30 g
    • Muzzle Velocity: 780 m/s
    • Explosive type: RDX + PETN + Incendiary composition
    • Explosive mass: approximately 0.96 g + 0.96 g + 1.46 g

 

As ammunition production could not be made in time, there were occasions when ammo imported from Italy was used. The most used is HE-I. Also, the Japanese Army imported more than 80 Fiat BR. 20 and used it as Type Italy Heavy Bomber. Therefore, you can use imported Breda-SAFAT ammo.

  • AP - Type Italy Armor-piercing Cartridge (イ式徹甲弾) (Cartuccia Perforante)
    • (The specification is the same as Breda in the game.)
  • HE-I or IAI - Type Italy Bursting High-explosive Cartridge (イ式炸裂榴弾) (Cartuccia Esplosiva Incendiaria)
    • (The specification is the same as Breda in the game.)

5WkfuYr.jpg

 

Within the current game, Ho-103 removes API-T and AP-I from Breda and copies it, and Ho-104 is simply copied from Breda.

  • Ho-103
    • T: Tracer bullet
    • Ball: Omni-purpose bullet
    • AP: Armor-piercing bullet
    • IAI: Immediate-action incendiary bullet
    • I: Incendiary bullet
      • Default: T/Ball/Ball/Ball/AP
      • Universal: AP/T/IAI/T/I
      • Air Targets: AP/T/IAI
      • Tracers: T
      • Stealth: AP/AP/IAI/IAI
  • Ho-104 (Turret)
    • T: Tracer bullet
    • Ball: Omni-purpose bullet 
    • AP: Armor-piercing bullet 
    • AP-I: Armor-piercing incendiary bullet
    • API-T: Armor-piercing incendiary tracer bullet 
    • IAI: Immediate-action incendiary bullet
      • Default: T/AP-I/Ball/IAI/AP
      • Armor Targets: AP/AP/AP/API-T
      • Universal: API-T/API-T/API-T/API-T/IAI
  • Breda-SAFAT
    • T: Tracer bullet
    • Ball: Omni-purpose bullet 
    • AP: Armor-piercing bullet 
    • AP-I: Armor-piercing incendiary bullet
    • API-T: Armor-piercing incendiary tracer bullet 
    • IAI: Immediate-action incendiary bullet
    • I: incendiary bullet
      • Default: T/Ball/Ball/I/AP
      • Universal: AP/AP-I/IAI/API-T/I
      • Air Targets: API-T/AP-I/IAI
      • Tracers: API-T
      • Stealth: AP-I/AP-I/IAI/IAI
  • Breda-SAFAT (Turret)
    • T: Tracer bullet
    • Ball: Omni-purpose bullet 
    • AP: Armor-piercing bullet
    • AP-I: Armor-piercing incendiary bullet
    • API-T: Armor-piercing incendiary tracer bullet 
    • IAI: Immediate-action incendiary bullet
      • Default: T/Ball/AP/AP/IAI
      • Armor Targets: AP/AP/AP/API-T
      • Universal: API-T/AP-I

 

According to the provision of 1942, armor-piercing round (AP-T) and incendiary round (HE-I) are used in a 2:1 combination. In the game, there is no historical ammo belt on Ho-103/Ho-104.
 

3. Unless the data is taken from an official Gaijin statement, please provide a documented test and provide the Client Log from that session.

I checked the ammo belt option.

 

Ho-103

Spoiler

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Ho-104

Spoiler

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5jfBJlt.jpg

 

Breda-SAFAT

Spoiler

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Breda-SAFAT (Turret)

Spoiler

EpsGxz8.jpg

 

hZdwPgS.jpg

 

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Official Gaijin statement:

Developers strive to give historically accurate ammo belts and good gameplay to players. However, Ho-103 copied Breda ammunition and just removed API-T and AP-I. It is contradictory. I think this is due to confusion in the source.

 

Official wiki:

Russian official wiki explains Ho-103 ammunition as Breda 's copy. Perhaps the developer misunderstood that all ammunition and belt are simple copies.

Quote

and the cartridges for it were copied from the Italian low-power cartridge 12.7x81SR mm Breda.

а патроны для него были скопированы с итальянского маломощного патрона 12,7x81SR мм Breda.

https://wiki.warthunder.ru/Ho-103_army_(12,7-мм)

 

Client log

2018_11_15_07_59_25__6344.clog

 

4. A detailed description of the fix you suggest. Provide sources including reference that underline your position. This is up to the discretion of the Technical Moderator handling the report, however the number of sources required depends on the type of source presented.

 

I suggest that you discard the copied ammo and belt in the current game and replace it with.

  • AP-T -  Type 1 Armor-piercing tracer bullet: Historically AP-T was used most.
  • IAI - Ma-103 Immediate-action incendiary bullet: According to Russian technical documents Ma-103 HE-I is classified as IAI.
  • AI - Ma-102 Adjustment incendiary bullet: 7.7 mm Ma-101 Special Incendiary round is classified as AI in the game.
  • AP - Breda Armor-piercing bullet: For stealth belts. Breda HE-I can be substituted by Ma-103 HE-I.

 

Historically it was based on the combination of AP-T and HE-I.

  • Default: AP-T/AP-T/IAI
  • Universal: AP-T/IAI
  • Air Targets: AP-T/AI/IAI
  • Tracers: AP-T
  • Stealth: AP/AI/IAI

 

Sources

#1 Ammunition supply record:

Spoiler

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Quote

The ratio of armor-piercing round to incendiary round is 2:1 for machine gun (cannon) bullets.

機関銃(砲)彈類ノ徹甲、燒夷ノ比率ハ二對一

 

Supply of aircraft fuel and ammunition (航空燃料及弾薬補給の件). by Army Special Bureau of Aviation (陸軍航空本部). September 1942. p. 8.

https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/das/meta-en/C01000651900

 

#2 Ammunition production record:

Spoiler

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Amount of arms, shells, and motor vehicles production chart. Report No. 45q(14), USSBS Index Section 2. p. 8. 

http://dl.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/8818497?itemId=info%3Andljp%2Fpid%2F8818497&__lang=en

 

#3 Book:

Spoiler

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All the Experimental Aircraft in Japanese Army. Written by Minoru Akimoto. January 2008. ISBN-13: 978-4873572338. p. 257.

 

#4 Captured technical document:

Notice that the weight of the projectile is 36.5 g.

Spoiler

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CINCPAC Bulletin 85-45, Japanese Projectiles Vol 1 (1945). pp. 65-67.

http://bulletpicker.com/pdf/CINCPAC Bulletin 85-45, Japanese Projectiles Vol 1.pdf

 

#5 Technical document of Allied Forces:

Dimensions etc are matched with source #4. The projectile weight is the weight without filling.

Spoiler

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Handbook of Ammunition, Hand and Special Grenades of Foreign Armies (Справочник по патронам, ручным и специальным гранатам иностранных армий). by Main Artillery Directorate of the Armed Forces of the USSR (Главное артиллерийское управление вооружённых сил Союза ССР). 1946. pp. 73-74.

https://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/Справочник_по_патронам,_ручным_и_специальным_гранатам_иностранных_армий

http://pirochem.net/index.php?id1=3&category=otherpirotech&author=murzaev-is&book=1946&page=17

PDF: https://armyman.info/books/id-7101.html

 

#6 Technical document of Allied Forces:

Since the weight data of the filling explosive is unknown, I attempted to calculate it from the volume.

Spoiler

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MEIU 4, Japanese Projectiles and Fuzes. pp. 25-26.

http://bulletpicker.com/pdf/MEIU 4, Japanese Projectiles and Fuzes.pdf

 

#7 Technical document of Allied Forces:

Spoiler

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C.I. Amm. Technical Report 24, Aircraft Cannon Cartridges, 12.7mm Rimless, for Aircraft Cannons Browning Type (1945). pp. 8, 11-12 (PDF).

http://bulletpicker.com/pdf/JATR-No 24.pdf

 

#8 Website:

Density data

The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH)

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/

 

#9 Calculation of filling:

Volume x Density = Weight of filling
 

Ma-103 HE-I

RDX: (0.36406346466125317 - 0.0341916807249772) x 1.8 = 0.593 [g]

 

Incendiary composition:

0.585734242298549 x 0.028 x 0.90 = 0.014 [g]
0.585734242298549 x 0.148 x 2.70 = 0.234 [g]
0.585734242298549 x 0.322 x 1.70 = 0.320 [g]
0.585734242298549 x 0.467 x 3.24 = 0.886 [g]

 

RDX: approximately 0.6 g
Incendiary composition: approximately 1.45 g

 

 

 

Ma-102 HE-I

Incendiary composition:

0.5712935307482143 x 0.028 x 0.90 = 0.014 [g]
0.5712935307482143 x 0.148 x 2.70 = 0.228 [g]
0.5712935307482143 x 0.322 x 1.70 = 0.313 [g]
0.5712935307482143 x 0.467 x 3.24 = 0.864 [g]

 

RDX  : 1.08629764581156829 x 0.49 x 1.80 = 0.958 [g]
PETN: 1.08629764581156829 x 0.50 x 1.77 = 0.961 [g]


49% RDX + 50% PETN: approximately 1.91 g
Incendiary composition: approximately 1.42 g

 

#10 Website:

I could not find the source of the book on Type 1 AP-T penetrating power. However, Mr. Yasufumi Kunimoto is a famous researcher of Japanese weapons. This website is his.

Quote

It penetrates a 12 mm bulletproof steel plate at a shooting distance of 300 meters and penetrates a 10 mm bulletproof steel plate at a shooting distance of 700 meters.

射距離300メートルで12ミリの防弾鋼板を、射距離700メートルで10ミリの防弾鋼板を貫徹する。

http://www.warbirds.jp/kunimoto/type51/Riku10.htm

 

#11 Website:

Data and photos of Breda-SAFAT ammunition in Italy. You can see that ammunition for Ho-103 is not a simple copy of Italy.

http://www.munizioni.eu/13-italiane/287-12-7-breda-mod-35.html

 

Please refer to the already submitted bug report for Special incendiary round.

 

An already submitted report on Ho-103.

 

 

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Thank you for your report.

 

I will investigate.

 

Although I am fairly sure that I reported the fact that Ho-104 / Ho-103/turret belts were not updated in December 2017 update for Japanese ammunition

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On 11/15/2018 at 7:49 PM, Rapitor said:

Thank you for your report.

 

I will investigate.

 

Although I am fairly sure that I reported the fact that Ho-104 / Ho-103/turret belts were not updated in December 2017 update for Japanese ammunition

 

Thank you for checking my bug report.

 

Ho-103 ammunition has been in a state of confusion for a long time. It is incompletely fixed. API-T and AP-I were removed but AP-T was not added.

 

I asked @Pony51 and @Smin1080p for advice before posting this bug report. I posted this bug report based on advice from them.

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That is true.

 

The report is a little bit long and with multiple issues, but we will work something out to iron out this. Japanese belts have been messy for quite some time indeed.

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On 11/15/2018 at 8:31 AM, *tester188 said:

Perhaps the developer misunderstood that all ammunition and belt are simple copies.

I afraid this make you confuse, but I hope to this become help.

At least in CDK, belt of Ho-103 use Bleda-SAFAT 12.7mm's one. 

 

If *tester188's research is exactly, it seems needed to fix it.

s3aO9Fd.pngQVpeQPi.png

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I am still wokring on it.

 

I have half of the report to the devs written (kind of a wall of text, like the report itself), I just lack time right now to progress efficiently, but it will be there.

 

A lot of work is hidden from the user side, as there are several issues reported already, and I have to organise / streamline it to get it right.

 

Regards

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Thank you for your patience lads.

 

The report was submitted, and other reports were updated.

 

"changelog:"

- For Ho-103, the absence of AP-T is reported.

- The fact it is a copy-paste from the breda (with restriction on API and API-T) is reported

- Correct specs for each shell (AP, AP-T, HEI (Japan made) x2 is reportedand more accurate band composition is reported

- Ho-104 / Ho-103 _using still API and APIT from Italian belt / prior belt before the removal of such ammunition is reported.

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