Ouiche

[Development] New repair and damage mechanics in Ground Vehicle Realistic Battles

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We would like to add a small explanation and emphasize, once again that the purpose of the changes is to make the game in vehicles with unresearched modifications more enjoyable.

 

We do not plan to change the basics of the gameplay in RB with these changes nor how any damage caused affects the game situation. Now, if you have caused functional damage to an enemy, you have some time to destroy him fully but if you did not succeed in doing this the enemy will be able to repair after some time and become dangerous to you again. You still cannot count on the absence of the modification "parts" from the enemy when you fight them. This will remain in the new mechanics, only that those who have not researched the modification will have an improved chance, for example, to get to a capture point and fix it there or approach an ally who can help with the repair and sometimes cover you in a hopeless situation.

 

We are ready to consider various options for these mechanics based on the results of discussions, for example, to do something with damaged gun barrels for a period of time (comparable to the repair kit/parts) in complete disabling of firing, or not to change the mechanics of damaged weapons at all and return only mobility. In our experience the designated critical damage to a gun is serious enough so we decided that it was possible to implement it for RB in this way. But a significant amount of criticism in the mechanics associated with weapons makes us think about other options. Therefore, we expect practical constructive proposals and dialogue from you.

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9 minutes ago, ULQ_LOVER said:

But you are doing it.

 

As we said in the first post - We think these changes will produce a positive effect on gameplay, but we're making this thread to gather feedback and nothing is written is stone for now.

The end goal is to get players happier - not angrier :D

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The way we have it now is perfect.. I just got  my stock leopard 2a4 and I have not finished the free repairs and I already have parts and 2,000 RP away from FPE. Please you perfected it already. Don't screw it up now. 

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1 minute ago, Ouiche said:

The end goal is to get players happier - not angrier :D

But you introduced a new visibility with invisible tanks, turned off a significant number of maps in the rotation, 

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With the recent changes to FPE and repair kit RP and research order, I'm not sure these steps are necessary. That said, these suggested changes seem to be well thought out. I like the idea that after xx seconds, if I haven't been killed I can limp on out of there. And it's not a guarantee I'll even be able to get to a cap.

 

Question: How will breech damage work with this?

 

Suggestion: Keep it simple, which it is at the moment. Getting too fancy will just cause issues.

 

I will say this. Thanks for putting this out there. Asking the playerbase says a lot.

 

WW

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I think this isn't necessarily a change in the right direction. And I'm thinking specifically of the British tree and tanks with incredibly long reloads. 

 

Brits require surgical precision in dismantling enemy tanks, and vics like the Conqueror or FV4005 are really going to struggle here. 15-20 seconds to get a busted engine or transmission back into some form of working order to retreat back into cover before it reloads to finish the kill.

 

A free repair to get your stock vehicle partially repaired to limp back to safety is fine, but it shouldn't be like AB.

 

Or even any teammate with repairs being able to help repair you I think would be more inline with what RB is.

 

I'm just not feeling this one guys.

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I'm an AB player so maybe not the most appropriate person to write here, but I like the change and I think that a lot of RB players will like it too, given that "nobody" likes the stock syndrome. It's another step in the right direction. To all of those that don't like it or are eskeptical, let's be real, in arcade the situations in which somebody with a broken barrel manages to flank you and kill you are quite rare. Like 1 out of every 1000 rare. On the other hand, motor/transmission restoration mainly becomes of use when the guy that hit you don't continue shooting and only if you are near cover. Finally, the turret rotation and canon breech autofixes are the only two that may allow you to get some kills in say 1 out of every 5-10 situations, but luckily for those that claim on "realism" (don't know why they consider realistic the current state of things anyway), breech autofix, which is the most productive one in AB, is not listed in the initial thread. All in all, they seem to have copy-pasted most part of AB mechanic, which I suppose it's been quite economic in terms of development.

 

However, as I kinda understand the point of those that don't like the change, thinking out loud and as they are opened to alternatives, a better solution for RB may be that instead of autorepairing (i.e, instead of regaining functionality after X seconds after the disabling), they should keep exactly the same user-triggered repairing logic that there is already in place (i.e press F to repair. you're disabled until then), but for tanks without parts mod, the reparing would only allow to regain up to the percentages listed in the opening thread. That way everything would be exactly the same in terms of strategy with the difference that everybody would have repairing capabilities (either 100% if parts available, or ~40% while stock). I wouldn't mind to see this in AB also.
 

Edited by _retro__gamer_
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16 minutes ago, leroyonly said:

While at the core this is a good system and addition, i do feel that some of the details could be changed for the better and to not include an AB system into RB. As RB is more module focussed then snipe the crew focussed i would propose to change the 5 points slightly into the following

  1. A disabled engine entirely blocks a vehicle’s movement for 40 seconds, after which 40% of its original function is restored.
  2. A disabled transmission entirely blocks the vehicle’s movement for 40 seconds, after which the gear shift range is reduced by half.
  3. A disabled traverse gear blocks turrets or guns from rotating(traversing) for 30 seconds, after which their rotation speed is limited to 30 degrees from the position the turret was in when it was damaged.
  4. A disabled elevation gear blocks the gun from elevating or depressing for 20 seconds, after which the gun elevation range is limited to ±3 degrees from the position the gun was in when it was damaged.
  5. A destroyed barrel inflicts significant penalties when fired: a 20-fold increase in shot dispersion and shells have 2 times less armour piercing and muzzle velocity.
  6. The ability to repair has been added to the spawn area(s) of the team the player belongs to.

This way you would retain the intent of the system while making it fit more into the core gameplay of RB while also retaining a bit of the immersion and at the same time keeping visuel information consistent as a destroyed barrel keeps the information to the player the same. Making modules of a tank also retain their importance while at the same time allowing for stock tanks to repair and retain the ability to continue the battle.

this is a way nicer way to me... you have the ability to run away and repair in every way, but not to fire back.
maybe slowly but you can be newly operational in about 1 to 3 minutes without boosting everyone (because to me a fix repair to the main gun of 20 seconds aviable WHILE MOVING, is even better then the classic repair in my opinion)

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24 minutes ago, BVV_d said:

I would like to make a small explanation and emphasize once again the purpose of the changes to make the game on the vehicles with not researched modifications more enjoyable. We do not plan to change the basis of the gameplay of the RB with these changes and how the damage caused affects on the game situation. Now if you have caused functional damage to the enemy you have some time to destroy him fully but if you did not succeed in doing this the enemy will be able to repair after some time and become dangerous for you again. And you can hardly count on the absence of the modification "parts" from the enemy when you fight with him. It will remain in the new mechanics, just those who do not have researched the modification will get some chance, for example, to get to the point and fix it there or to get to an ally who can help with repair and sometimes cover you in a hopeless situation. We are ready to consider various options for this mechanics based on the results of discussions, for example, to do something that imposes on the damaged barrel for some time (comparable to the repair kit/parts) a complete ban on firing, or not to change the mechanics of damaged weapons at all and return only mobility. Just in our experience the designated critical damage to the gun is serious enough so we decided that it was possible to implement them for the RB on that way. But a significant amount of criticism of the mechanics associated with weapons makes us think about other options. Therefore, we expect real constructive proposals and dialogue from you.

 

Spasibo za uchastiye!

 

The barrel question is a complex one. I guess the stereotypical "flower"-looking barrel could shoot the way you initially described. But in a lot of situations the barrel is significantly damaged/destroyed 

from the outside. Imagine trying to fire with a bent barrel, what could possibly happen? Sounds like we need Mythbusters to test things out!..

 

How about the following: if the damage to the barrel is critical, yellow or red, but not the fully disabled "black", then in 20 seconds the vehicle regains an ability to shoot once, with barrel getting once again reduced to critical. This way it is streamlined with the partial repair mechanics introduced for other tank systems.

 

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23 minutes ago, BVV_d said:

I would like to make a small explanation and emphasize once again the purpose of the changes to make the game on the vehicles with not researched modifications more enjoyable. We do not plan to change the basis of the gameplay of the RB with these changes and how the damage caused affects on the game situation. Now if you have caused functional damage to the enemy you have some time to destroy him fully but if you did not succeed in doing this the enemy will be able to repair after some time and become dangerous for you again. And you can hardly count on the absence of the modification "parts" from the enemy when you fight with him. It will remain in the new mechanics, just those who do not have researched the modification will get some chance, for example, to get to the point and fix it there or to get to an ally who can help with repair and sometimes cover you in a hopeless situation. We are ready to consider various options for this mechanics based on the results of discussions, for example, to do something that imposes on the damaged barrel for some time (comparable to the repair kit/parts) a complete ban on firing, or not to change the mechanics of damaged weapons at all and return only mobility. Just in our experience the designated critical damage to the gun is serious enough so we decided that it was possible to implement them for the RB on that way. But a significant amount of criticism of the mechanics associated with weapons makes us think about other options. Therefore, we expect real constructive proposals and dialogue from you.

 

The current proposed changes make RB even closer to AB than it already is.

A destroyed module must not be functional in any form. A solution to lack of parts would be allowing a player to initiate repairs without parts but it would only repair the modules partially. All other parameters of the repair function (being immobile, repair time) would be unchanged.

 

And honestly, all the arcade stuff that you're forcing into realistic battles is disgusting. People don't play RB to have AB gameplay, they play RB to see something different.

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2 minutes ago, flying_hog said:

But you introduced a new visibility with invisible tanks

 

If you're experiencing this kind of issue, make sure to forward a bug report so the devs can look at it. This is a very complicated system, long story short we're trying to get zero invisible tanks, while having your client only "see" what it is supposed to see to fight a kind of cheat passively. (the less room there is for nasty stuff, the less nasty stuff happen. Of course, we have other passive / active features to fight illegal game modifications). The game was carefully tuned to be on this edge but like many thing, it may not work fine on 100% of the computers or connections so... if it's not working fine for you, report it in a bug report!

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I am not a fan of this. I think RB repairs without parts should just take twice the time (or similar).
I think players should be able to choose what they want to repair.
Example: Player gets shot and has damaged engine, turret drive and breech and has no parts. He manages to survive the enemy's presence and chooses to start repairing the engine (albeit slowly without parts). Engine gets repaired and player drives to a nearby capture point to repair the rest

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Personally I think 20 seconds for mobility repair isn't long enough, anything past 45 being too long (I don't want to sit there in a kv-2, shoot the tank, not kill it in 1 shot somehow, then watch it drive off in the middle of my reload). I think you should still be able to fire without a barrel (assuming the breach is intact) which I commend the change on that. Was a little dumb in my mind that you couldn't fire with a broken barrel, and the enemies would just only shoot barrels, making the gameplay frustrating. Will we be able to reload the cannon if the breach is intact but not the barrel? Because that was also annoying.

 

The turret movement bothers me because it means that a tank isn't truly disabled and can possibly kill you (plus it always felt more rewarding to kill an enemy when shooting without a turret ring). I would like when I shoot a tank in the turret no possibility of retaliation (I.e. when your in an intense fight you shoot enemy tank, switch to another target, then another, forgetting about the first target. With this system you could die when you thought the first enemy was disabled, if you understand what I am saying).

 :pinki2: (basically gets terminated)

 

Just my opinion, The new Barrel and Movement system is a very good idea (assuming the mobility repair times are within reason, I am against the 20 second repair).

 

Although back in the day you were able to (when you had no engine or transmission) roll your tank in neutral down a hill or in a safe place. Right now the tank becomes static. About a 1/3rd of my deaths happen like this now thanks to me now being able to roll down the hill. Is it possible you can reimplement this feature? That way you could roll back to a defilade or down a hill and start the Quick repair or Parts repair process? I know a lot of people miss this feature.

 

And well, FPE should remain a low repair cost, and I understand not giving everyone in ground forces FPE to start, Historically they either didn't have any or if they did sometimes didn't work well (the fire extinguisher outside the tank is not to put the tank out, its to put people that are on fire out. Not even joking). Thought naval forces should have FPE regardless, those boats always had firefighters and damage control on them, not very realistic or historical coming from the Navy.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read my view of things, and please consider the neutral roll being implemented back into the game. 

:wopl_smile_war_thunder::wopl_smile:

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Gaijin, please rethink your decisions this is tank rb after all and not ab so please think of something else not alot of people will be going to like this... i started playing war thunder for the realism after all if i wanted to play a tank arcade game i could go play world of tanks or armored warfare instead

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29 minutes ago, BVV_d said:

Therefore, we expect practical constructive proposals and dialogue from you.

Okay, I havent been on here for years, but kept playing the game. Now it seems the right time to add my two cents.

 

Generally, you seem to invest way too much thought into a new mechanic, instead of just giving up a certain old one: Why not remove Parts and FPE on every tank and make it free? If you really wanted to make players life easier, there would be no big downsides from the game developer side of things, as vehicle upgrades are linked with a fixed about of RP per tier and hence taking out both of them would increase the other modules cost. Even in case you dont want to miss out on the free money, which these two upgrades grant you due to annoyed players purchasing them with gold, making one charge of both when stock in comparison to two charges for the module bought would be a viable option and not punish stock players beyond the necessary.

 

Apart from this, both options would prevent the change of Realistic Battles into an Arcade+ style of game mode, which the proposed changes inevitably will cause. A dead engine is a dead engine, and if you want to keep the realism aspect to it, there is nothing you should be able to do but repair it or bail out. This is the exact appeal, the selling point of this game mode, especially since you actually removed historical match-ups in Simulator Battles and made it just another mix of all units in a big match making basket. So please, refrain from impleneting what was proposed today.

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What do you guys think about these proposals? I'm about to create a post to ask the community to express his oppinion, give more ideas and vote about these. When Gaijin listen to the community everybody win.

 

PROPOSALS FOR GROUND RB

Damaged radiator -> The engine get damaged little by little until dead.
Damaged engine -> The engine breaks like in airplanes (little by little until dead).
Fuel tank destroyed (not damaged) -> any impact on it or nearby area causes a fire due to fuel leak(this fire causes half damage that engine one do, but forces you to use extinguisher).
Damaged optics -> Causes a new visual layer in the optics that adds a damaged glass effect.

 

PROPOSALS FOR GROUND SB
If the commander die -> You have no outside view only binocular or primary optic.
The last man's mechanics remains. (1 crew member can continue operating the vehicle).

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2 hours ago, Jupiter_Kompot said:

Tanks that can shoot with destroyed gun barrels, can start moving their gun again with destroyed traverse without even having to stop to repair and other such things belong in Arcade. Stop trying to turn RB into AB. Mixed battles and arcade maps in RB are already bad enough as is.

 Restoration of modules must require the vehicle to be immobile and repair times must be increased.

 

And where does it say that they can move with a destroyed engine / transmission?

 

People please, read the post. You repair the damaged part BEFORE you can use it, and when you use it it comes with a penalty.

Edited by LunarRainbow
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My biggest suggest would be to add a repair depot zone at the spawn locations. Many times reaching and clearing a capture point is not possible in a damaged vehicle.

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QUESTION:

I presume that the decreased penetration mentioned on the devblog will not affect shells that rely on chemical energy to penetrate (HE, HEAT and HESH)?

Ouiche (Posted )

Not for HE and HEAT, HESH is still subject to discussion
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I Dont know why so many people talk about it being Arcade + , you "repair" the modulels only to a certain degree, so they are atleast "some what" working, you still need to "replace" the parts in a allied cap.

 

Thats a good step from the Devs! 

 

I thought they wouldnt do such things, just stopping with the Parts & FPE fp reduction, now we need something like this for fire too, but unitil gotta say, good job gaijigle... ähhhh Gaijin ::good:

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1)  A disabled engine entirely blocks a vehicle’s movement for 20 seconds, after which 40% of its original function is restored.

 

I'm all for this change.  Good move, well done.

 

2) A disabled transmission entirely blocks the vehicle’s movement for 20 seconds, after which the gear shift range is reduced by half.

 

I'm all for this change.  Good move, well done.

 

3) A disabled traverse gear blocks turrets or guns from rotating(traversing) for 15 seconds, after which their rotation speed is limited to 3 degrees/sec.

 

I'm not sure whether this is good or bad yet but I certainly have no objections.

 

4) A disabled elevation gear limits the gun elevation range to ±1.5 degrees from the position the gun was in when it was damaged.

 

I'm not sure whether this is good or bad yet but I certainly have no objections.

 

5) A destroyed barrel inflicts significant penalties when fired: a 20-fold increase in shot dispersion and shells have 2 times less armour piercing and muzzle velocity.

 

Like other people here, this is where I have a problem.  Often taking out the barrel is the only thing you can do against certain opponents and takes skill and knowledge to get it.  It simply isn't fair to punish players who've demonstrated the skill to inflict that damage by allowing their opponent to return fire at all.  I understand that at long ranges, the penalties will be substantial, but up close, there would be very little difference to a heavy tank facing a light tank, for example.  The heavy would simply return fire without issue which would have no problem dispatching the light, even with reduced penetration.  There should be a time penalty, like there is for any repair situation.  If the tank had to sit still for eg 20 seconds before this reduced capacity would take effect, the way they have to now during a regular repair, I think it would be a better compromise.  I also think that firing with a partially repaired barrel should have a 50/50 chance of destroying it completely.
 

I do want to say that I've been impressed with the way Gaijin have addressed this.  When the 'movement' started, I figured there would be an outcome that sort of fudged the issue, rather than real, positive steps.  But that hasn't been the case.  You guys have continued to make and suggest changes weeks later.  So I take my hat off to you guys, thanks.  

 

I do implore you to give second thoughts to point 5, however.  I think that that would really change a huge part of the game and not for the best.

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Firstly, I'd like to thank the dev team for their consideration of this issue, as it was long overdue, and I agree with most of the points! However I have 2 points;

1) Cannon barrel. Unless there is a similar 20 second time limit which prevents firing, I don't agree with this change. A SPAA or smaller tank that has the sense to destroy a larger tank's cannon barrel will still be annihilated at close range, regardless of the accuracy and penetration debuff.

 

2) these new changes should not also provide the excuse to increase the RP cost of parts and FPE, that should be kept as it is now

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I disagree with the functionality of the gun being allowed after being damaged, even after being blacjed out. However, I would like to see the engine functionality restored as mentioned in the article. Is there a way we could gain limited fire prevention stock as well? Would be much appreciated.

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RB will become AB+? Well this is a bad idea. 

 

Lets say I get uptiered. I shot a guy in the turret. It takes me about 30 sec + to reload. Normaly it would take ~40 sec for him to repair and now he can open fire with decresed acc after 20 sec? Thats just bad... 

 

I can’t support this idea.

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