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Close Air Support in Ground RB: Updated Version Post-1.71


23 minutes ago, i_ivanof said:

My Maus was not happy reading this thread

The problems heavy armor only has regarding CAS are the following:

 

1) Ability to Cap Rush to planes early in a match, leading to one side having planes up and the other side having neither fighters nor SPAAG

 

2) SPAAG generally aren’t anywhere more than a mild annoyance to planes until they get radars

 

3) Fighters without ordinance aren’t able to spawn at match start to deter Cap & Fly Abusers

 

4) Planes have literally nothing else to do in a Tank RB match except go bomb player tanks (the slower, the easier it is to directly hit and kill) or go kill each other. There are no supply convoys, bombing point supply bases, artillery units the team calls upon to fire at various places on the map, or enemy fortifications defending spawn zones, all of which could be viable targets for planes to kill. Planes also don’t have a scouting function like what light tanks have, when they really should.

 

Planes only don’t fit the mode well because of a lack of developmental attention of what to do with them. 

 

Nerfing weapons was never the answer. Nor will it ever be.

 

Ideally, planes should be allowed as first spawn units regardless of whether they carry or don’t carry ordinance, so they aren’t powerups anymore.

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When the cas wasn't nerfedand rockets did a ton of dmg I actually liked it.. at the time I never knew how to fly a plane at all.. but it was fun blowng up stuff at 5.3. I missed alot with rockets and bombs but I maybe got something out of taking my 5.3 plane out.. now even if I hit with rockets it's meh. 

 

you need to buff rockets again, but make AA more fun to bring out. Like have AA spot planes for players etc.. I get a kill with bombs in tank rb but it's so hard to do that. It takes a lot of skill some of which I have mastered pretty well over the year or so I only played 5.3. With rockets doing msg I had a lot more fun..

 

 

granted that that an experienced player would get 10+ kills and yeah ok but why not do something to AA? And I don't mean top tier AA with radar just lower tier AA so that bringing out an AA is more fun. Or more rewarding. 

 

not really sure. 

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8 hours ago, *commandoo said:

When the cas wasn't nerfedand rockets did a ton of dmg I actually liked it.. at the time I never knew how to fly a plane at all.. but it was fun blowng up stuff at 5.3. I missed alot with rockets and bombs but I maybe got something out of taking my 5.3 plane out.. now even if I hit with rockets it's meh. 

 

you need to buff rockets again, but make AA more fun to bring out. Like have AA spot planes for players etc.. I get a kill with bombs in tank rb but it's so hard to do that. It takes a lot of skill some of which I have mastered pretty well over the year or so I only played 5.3. With rockets doing msg I had a lot more fun..

 

 

granted that that an experienced player would get 10+ kills and yeah ok but why not do something to AA? And I don't mean top tier AA with radar just lower tier AA so that bringing out an AA is more fun. Or more rewarding. 

 

not really sure. 

I liked it too, I played both sides of the equation as America and Germany during CAS spam times. CAS felt very powerful, and smart play by Germany of simply having a few fighters up to spawn-camp the CAS at their airspawn held back the problem well at times. 

 

However, Germany’s utter lack of low-altitude-friendly, highly maneuverable aircraft with sufficient armament was showing pretty clearly. German fighters can intercept stuff quite fine but in a 1v1 against some of the better CAS planes it’d be too heavily in the Allies’ favor. A Tempest MkV vs an Fw-190D or Bf-109K is a far enough matchup, but a Bearcat, Spitfire BS MkIX, Spitfire Mk14, Spitfire Mk18, Spitfire Mk22, Spitfire Mk24, or Tempest MkII? All of those planes just ripped German interceptors apart.

 

And pairing Russia and/or Japan with Germany didn’t help them out much either. While the La-7, I-185 M-71, La-9, Ki-84, A7M2, N1K2, and J7W1 are certainly able to fight these enemy planes with sufficient speed advantages, in most practical circumstances the superprops just run them down. 

 

Japan’s 5.7-6.0 planes are very much overtiered. All the Ki-61s are overtiered. The Ki-100s are missing a lot of their maneuverability and are undertiered as a result. In Russia’s case, the La-9 is slightly overtiered and should be 5.7. The Yak series becomes essentially heavy interception fighters not unlike late model 109s, but low top speed remains a massive handicap. Germany, Russia, Japan, and Italy are missing superprop level designs. 

 

And this is yet another component of the problem that was left unfixed after the CAS nerf.

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On 4/15/2018 at 8:46 AM, OldDeadMan said:

I'm really not sure why everyone who is complaining isn't in Sim. Cockpit mode? Joystick controls? Less planes? Higher skill floor? Arcade-like tank controls while planes require real finesse and skill? All present in Sim. If the population in Sim is large enough, they'll even be able to open it up to all BRs all the time. 

 

By trying to change RB into SB with markers, you are denying the mode you really want from progressing.

 

RB as it is now is a great spot for people who are casual players who don't want armed go karts or being marked constantly, but don't have the time to spend on joysticks or messing around with mouse joy. In my case, my desk is functional for things other than gaming, so only once in a while do I clear it off, set up the stick and sim. 

 

So true....    I configured a gamepad over the weekend (I got rid of my Sim controls years ago), played around a bit on Realistic controls, and I came away with "Playing SIm against RB mouse aim/3rd person is silly.   Why am I not playing SIM like this?"

 

It's not difficult doing CAS as such; although, it is a much steeper learning curve that requires practice,  a lot of Configuration, and hardware.    After doing all that...  SIM is where I should be playing as interceptors are playing the same way.    I never could map my Yaw to the triggers and I was stuck playing with 100% rudder deflection when I used them.    It also took me a few games to realize I couldn't pull 100% elevator deflection and had to be adjusted in the mapper to achieve that.   

 

After going through this exercise I might just play SIM and pickup a decent joystick again; although...   probably not...   It's just requires too much and totally loses that "let me jump in for one game" casual aspect and if I was to go SIM again..   I'd be looking at other games.

 

I think WT's 3rd person views and controls are really what make WT shine...    It would be a pretty sad day for WT if they ever changed that.

 

 

Edited by Sidiros
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Small comment...again the newbie view on the subject...

CAS seems to work WELL in early Tank RB...i mean under BR2.7...even if uptiered.

 

In fact...what i see MORE is players wasting spawns into airplanes...and then do little with them.

I was killed ONCE by air attack...and saw several times planes flying around doing little more than annoying tanks and some spotting...and serving as targets (got a few air kills with SPAAs)

In tanks i rarely look up...not afraid of planes...

In SPAAs i do get one-on-one vs planes...with mixed results...but SPAA is much cheaper than plane anyway...

In planes i just managed to get shot down...didn't feel nothing OP...had problems finding targets, aiming seems hard...and return fire is indeed dangerous...but i was using Swordfish ;)

 

CAS get kills when handled RIGHT...but most times it does little to nothing...and i am guessing MANY players would had done better using extra tanks...

 

As an EXAMPLE...had a few matches where our team overruns the enemy caps or even reaches THEIR spawn and stays there waiting while last enemies are flying around...a particularly odd one the enemy ended with 3 planes...and no tanks...and we had 5 or 6 tanks and no planes...SO we all spent 5min doing fireworks to the sky...vs aerobatics display...

 

MY POINT...CAS seems to work and add a dimension to the game. I assume that at higher BRs it needs some tweaking...lots of numbers can be adjusted...but the CONCEPT seems interesting...

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25 minutes ago, *GhostSoph said:

Small comment...again the newbie view on the subject...

CAS seems to work WELL in early Tank RB...i mean under BR2.7...even if uptiered.

 

In fact...what i see MORE is players wasting spawns into airplanes...and then do little with them.

I was killed ONCE by air attack...and saw several times planes flying around doing little more than annoying tanks and some spotting...and serving as targets (got a few air kills with SPAAs)

In tanks i rarely look up...not afraid of planes...

In SPAAs i do get one-on-one vs planes...with mixed results...but SPAA is much cheaper than plane anyway...

In planes i just managed to get shot down...didn't feel nothing OP...had problems finding targets, aiming seems hard...and return fire is indeed dangerous...but i was using Swordfish ;)

 

CAS get kills when handled RIGHT...but most times it does little to nothing...and i am guessing MANY players would had done better using extra tanks...

 

As an EXAMPLE...had a few matches where our team overruns the enemy caps or even reaches THEIR spawn and stays there waiting while last enemies are flying around...a particularly odd one the enemy ended with 3 planes...and no tanks...and we had 5 or 6 tanks and no planes...SO we all spent 5min doing fireworks to the sky...vs aerobatics display...

 

MY POINT...CAS seems to work and add a dimension to the game. I assume that at higher BRs it needs some tweaking...lots of numbers can be adjusted...but the CONCEPT seems interesting...

This just proves several of my points.

 

CAS needs a serious rebuffing so it isn’t pointless to spawn.

 

Planes need more to do than just kill player tanks, and those other tasks need to be competitive with killing player tanks reward wise so there only becomes a need to bomb/rocket a player tank when your team asks you to in chat.

 

SPAAG need buffs to deal with circus actor planes like what you describe. 

 

Tanks need an alternate objective to bleed tickets faster when one team wins the ground and there are only enemy planes left. This would be a whole line of defensive pillboxes and such to take out that are guarding the spawns. 

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Problem i guess is twofold...

 

Balance...you increase airpower on some scenarios (low BR)...leads to airpower abuse on other scenarios (high BR)...i PERSONALLY dont think air should play center role in GROUND battles...it should always be a SUPPORT weapon...1 or 2 aircraft in the sky for each team seems fine...3 or 4 if teams are LARGE...more than that is odd.

 

People...people are inherently DUMB and SELFCENTERED...so i guess lots of them will go into planes WITHOUT REASON or SKILL...and not even to practice...but just because they can.

I am not sure this should be "solved"...people have the "right" to act dumb...and they (and their team) will pay the price. MANY things in game get odd results because players wont play FOR THE TEAM or do dumb things...forum is full of such issues. IF a team "decides" to "waste" resources into an airforce it should either be good at it...or lose because of it...

 

EDIT:

Also realized an "issue" i am not sure if deliberate. Often i get the "need" to spawn into a SPAA because i cant afford anything else...this makes me WANT and LOOK FOR enemy airplanes...if no planes are around i can only "suicide" into an enemy tank ambush...

(i know i can kill some low BR tanks with MGs...and take caps...but still "odd" that game "make me" play SPAAs...i am very bad at it anyway)

Sometimes i see 3 or more SPAAs spawning with me...and no planes to shoot at ;) ...

Edited by *GhostSoph

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53 minutes ago, *GhostSoph said:

Problem i guess is twofold...

 

Balance...you increase airpower on some scenarios (low BR)...leads to airpower abuse on other scenarios (high BR)...i PERSONALLY dont think air should play center role in GROUND battles...it should always be a SUPPORT weapon...1 or 2 aircraft in the sky for each team seems fine...3 or 4 if teams are LARGE...more than that is odd.

 

People...people are inherently DUMB and SELFCENTERED...so i guess lots of them will go into planes WITHOUT REASON or SKILL...and not even to practice...but just because they can.

I am not sure this should be "solved"...people have the "right" to act dumb...and they (and their team) will pay the price. MANY things in game get odd results because players wont play FOR THE TEAM or do dumb things...forum is full of such issues. IF a team "decides" to "waste" resources into an airforce it should either be good at it...or lose because of it...

 

EDIT:

Also realized an "issue" i am not sure if deliberate. Often i get the "need" to spawn into a SPAA because i cant afford anything else...this makes me WANT and LOOK FOR enemy airplanes...if no planes are around i can only "suicide" into an enemy tank ambush...

(i know i can kill some low BR tanks with MGs...and take caps...but still "odd" that game "make me" play SPAAs...i am very bad at it anyway)

Sometimes i see 3 or more SPAAs spawning with me...and no planes to shoot at ;) ...

Except now the weapons on planes are so over-nerfed they can barely perform in a support role. 

 

Plane weapons need to be rebuffed, especially bombs’ blast radii against tanks. If tanks have overperforming repair abilities contrary to real life, doesn’t that justify more potent than real life bombs and even 1.69’s nuke rockets?

 

But, with such buffs, all SPAAG need lead indicators to be effective defenses against planes before they’ve managed to kill somebody.

 

Also we need to be able to spawn fighters as first spawns to directly counter Cap & Fly people. 

 

And planes need a lot more things to do that actually pay well enough and matter in winning games so they don’t need to go after player tanks all that often.

 

1. Divert plane attention with other juicier targets than player tanks

2. Buff the living hell out of counters to CAS; fighters and SPAAG

3. Give more ways to win matches than just capping arbitrary circles on maps and exterminating everyone, would tie into #1.

4. Specifically reintroduce bombing points and AFs to bomb so bigger bombers would have a reason to go in GF games and not overly predictable AF ones.

 

All this stuff would make games more realistic and less able to be steamrolled. If a team spams too many planes they lose on the ground. Simple as that.

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Anything else to talk aboue here?

 

Also, forum mods, could you pin this thread in place of the old CAS thread that’s been locked for months?

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25 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Anything else to talk aboue here?

 

Also, forum mods, could you pin this thread in place of the old CAS thread that’s been locked for months?

 

I'd just like to re-iterate "Balance Air and Ground spawn point earnings."      That seems to be the one thing I haven't seen anyone argue against.

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10 minutes ago, Sidiros said:

 

I'd just like to re-iterate "Balance Air and Ground spawn point earnings."      That seems to be the one thing I haven't seen anyone argue against.

I’d extend that to RP and SL as well, buff what tanks earn so they equal planes. Then with less people being derped at match start and able to respawn in the event of that in something besides SPAAG, you’ll likely see less onesided roflstomps.

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Just now, MH4UAstragon said:

I’d extend that to RP and SL as well, buff what tanks earn so they equal planes. Then with less people being derped at match start and able to respawn in the event of that in something besides SPAAG, you’ll likely see less onesided roflstomps.

 

I'm not sure why they didn't do that in the beginning; however, with both trees (ground and air) currently having different economies it makes that quite a chore.

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On 16.04.2018 at 4:41 AM, MH4UAstragon said:

The problems heavy armor only has regarding CAS are the following:

 

1) Ability to Cap Rush to planes early in a match, leading to one side having planes up and the other side having neither fighters nor SPAAG

for me cap'n'fly is solution for uptiers forget about taking my 4.7 jumbo vs tigers and t-3485

2) SPAAG generally aren’t anywhere more than a mild annoyance to planes until they get radars

when someone actually can use a spaa its rather pain in the tail rather tahn annoyance

3) Fighters without ordinance aren’t able to spawn at match start to deter Cap & Fly Abusers

i like that idea, thats gonna lead to strafing heaven ;) 

4) Planes have literally nothing else to do in a Tank RB match except go bomb player tanks (the slower, the easier it is to directly hit and kill) or go kill each other. There are no supply convoys, bombing point supply bases, artillery units the team calls upon to fire at various places on the map, or enemy fortifications defending spawn zones, all of which could be viable targets for planes to kill. Planes also don’t have a scouting function like what light tanks have, when they really should.

STRAFING !!!

Planes only don’t fit the mode well because of a lack of developmental attention of what to do with them. 

meh

Nerfing weapons was never the answer. Nor will it ever be.

+1

Ideally, planes should be allowed as first spawn units regardless of whether they carry or don’t carry ordinance, so they aren’t powerups anymore.

:good:

 

On 16.04.2018 at 5:00 AM, *commandoo said:

I missed alot with rockets and bombs but I maybe got something out of taking my 5.3 plane out.. now even if I hit with rockets it's meh. 

you need to buff rockets again

im able to kill panthers kvs and bias 6 after nerf so its rather practice issue

On 17.04.2018 at 1:21 PM, *GhostSoph said:

CAS get kills when handled RIGHT

:good:

 

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Could having CAS planes get speed limits for external ordinance possibly allow for some of the CAS nerfs to be undone?

 

Many US prop aircraft, for instance, had speed limits of around 300mph/480kph before external bombs and rockets had potential to fall off or fail to release properly.

 

Thus, when combined with airfield spawns, buffing SPAAG via lead markers, and allowing fighters as first spawns, CAS would have many mechanisms to be restrained.

Edited by MH4UAstragon
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41 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Could having CAS planes get speed limits for external ordinance possibly allow for some of the CAS nerfs to be undone?

 

Many US prop aircraft, for instance, had speed limits of around 300mph/480kph before external bombs and rockets had potential to fall off or fail to release properly.

 

Thus, when combined with airfield spawns, buffing SPAAG via lead markers, and allowing fighters as first spawns, CAS would have many mechanisms to be restrained.

 

I personally feel that currently 1,000 and 2,000lb bombs are perfect for CAS right now.     If they took away the nerfs it would just make these overpowered again.   

 

I would rather see these bomb sizes removed from Ground RB and then the nerfs undone as keeping these Strategic bomb sizes in game create a balancing issue between nations and make traditional CAS less effective (as they don't carry these bomb sizes.)

 

If 500lbers (250kg) was the maz size for Ground RB and those performed like 1,000lbers....   I think it would be a much better air dynamic as so many more planes can carry those bomb sizes.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Sidiros said:

 

I personally feel that currently 1,000 and 2,000lb bombs are perfect for CAS right now.     If they took away the nerfs it would just make these overpowered again.   

 

I would rather see these bomb sizes removed from Ground RB and then the nerfs undone as keeping these Strategic bomb sizes in game create a balancing issue between nations and make traditional CAS less effective (as they don't carry these bomb sizes.)

 

If 500lbers (250kg) was the maz size for Ground RB and those performed like 1,000lbers....   I think it would be a much better air dynamic as so many more planes can carry those bomb sizes.

Nah, un-nerfing bombs so that 500lbers act like current 1000lbers would not make bigger bomb sizes overpowered. 

 

If bigger bombs were made unnecessary or overkill, a good many people would opt for smaller bombs with less effect on flight performance.

 

But the bigger bombs would now be actually able to clear out a cap zone swarming with multiple people.

 

And again, if CAS had a lot more things to use ordinance on than just player tanks, and that other stuff was competitive reward wise with killing player tanks, and that stuff would help win games, you’d probably see a lot of CAS opt for the least prickly prey first and then only go for players if the team specifically asks for it.

 

This is the true problem. But un-nerfing bombs would help even out CAS more because suddenly more planes would be viable using it.

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Either i did overread the point but i somhow missed the point where just 1 person mentions that other Nations Expect the US and UK misses ALOT of Ordinance and/or have Planes that are built for plus 5000m Performance like 109 etc.

 

 

But in this Thread are pretty good Ideas really, but like someone said above me CAS needs to be a SUPPORT ROLE and not and Agressive Attack Roll and "Nuke everything to hell"...

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1 hour ago, Deadmmann said:

Either i did overread the point but i somhow missed the point where just 1 person mentions that other Nations Expect the US and UK misses ALOT of Ordinance and/or have Planes that are built for plus 5000m Performance like 109 etc.

 

 

But in this Thread are pretty good Ideas really, but like someone said above me CAS needs to be a SUPPORT ROLE and not and Agressive Attack Role and "Nuke everything to hell"...

More like planes should have actually good support roles. Ingame, “support” roles could be seen as bleeding tickets or helping out ground forces in indirect ways. 

- bombing objectives to both decap them and completely obliterate buildings in said cap zones to make them easier to control through means besides just derp brawling. 

- taking out lines of supply trucks coming from bombing points to spawns. 

- reintroducing bombing points as a way for bigger bombers to reliably hit and kill tanks. Also these supply bases should be within 4km of the battlefield so artillery type units (M4A3 105, SU-122, SU-152, etc for instance) can shell these as an alternative source of income.

- making all CAS spawn on the AF, or a long way away from the battlefield at medium-high altitude in the case of big bombers

- making the AF a bombing target regardless of whether the minibases are alive or dead. Take this out, no more planes can spawn.

- allowing fighters, bombers, and CAS to spawn at match start to make this mode actually combined arms and not have planes be silly powerups.

- adding front lines of fortifications for both tanks and planes to kill.

- making the artillery teams call upon realistic and an actual target. Three groups of arty alongside the bombing points, at most three arty strikes can be called per team until said arty vehicles reload. Preferably also make arty units vary from nation to nation (Katyusha groups for Russia, K-5 or Schwerer Gustav Railway Guns for Germany, Long Toms for America, and similar things for other nations)

- But, planes’ weapons do need to be very powerful against tanks, so long as tanks get fantasy “repair anywhere” ability. Currently most rockets are underperforming and bombs are underperforming, these need to be corrected. HEAT needs correct spalling, HESH needs correct pen, warhead types for both of those on HVARs and RP-3s need to be added. Tiny Tims need to be launched like they were pre-1.71 and not have excessive blast radii vs the launching plane. 

- all SPAAG need lead indicators, and CAS planes need speed limitations when carrying external ordinance, where if the plane goes too fast with ordinance still on, the ordinance can fall off prematurely or the bomb racks can malfunction so it can’t drop at all. Somewhere in the realm of 300-350mph for props, 400-500mph for subsonic jets. Makes them easy prey for fighters and buffed SPAAG, thereby discouraging people to spawn in CAS right at the start of a match until air superiority is attained. 

 

What we’re in is really a shell of a possibly awesome mode, but it needs a lot of gameplay change work done to it.

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7 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

- bombing objectives to both decap them and completely obliterate buildings in said cap zones to make them easier to control through means besides just derp brawling. 

I like that idea

4 hours ago, OldDeadMan said:

we already have a great game mode and some of us don't want it turned into arcade game mode,

sounds like u play tanks and planes ;) 

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welcome fellow public enemy of tru tankerz:lol2:

@MH4UAstragon

i kinda like few of ur ideas (ie airfield start at beggining of match, destroyable AF) but adding to much pve targets could make turn combined arms RB matches into arkadish bot clubbing :S

Edited by LuftMaus
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On 4/15/2018 at 10:01 PM, i_ivanof said:

My Maus was not happy reading this thread

 

19 hours ago, Deadmmann said:

But in this Thread are pretty good Ideas really, but like someone said above me CAS needs to be a SUPPORT ROLE and not and Agressive Attack Roll and "Nuke everything to hell"...

 

15 hours ago, OldDeadMan said:

Or, and I know this is going to be tough to swallow... we already have a great game mode and some of us don't want it turned into arcade game mode, or we'd already be playing that mode. 

 

This entire thread strikes me as a solution looking for a problem. CAS is finally a reasonable supporting arm instead of the somewhat ridiculous powerup that it was before.

 

Speaking for mid-tier play at least, both CAS and SPAA can be successful for those who put the effort into getting skilled with them.

 

Other than perhaps working on more equity in terms of effective CAS weapons and SPAA vehicles between the factions, I think Gaijin should just stop messing with it. I don't see any good that would come from making bombs and rockets more effective or from adding markers to all SPAA etc.

 

Ground or "combined arms" RB absolutely does not need more emphasis on the air component. It's not GFRB's fault or responsibility to make up for the fact that RB air gameplay is so very bad.

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12 hours ago, LuftMaus said:

welcome fellow public enemy of tru tankerz:lol2:

@MH4UAstragon

i kinda like few of ur ideas (ie airfield start at beggining of match, destroyable AF) but adding to much pve targets could make turn combined arms RB matches into arkadish bot clubbing :S

Well there is no other way to actually make GF RB the place to take ground attack and bombing planes. Yet the Air RB players constantly say “go take your attackers and bombers to Ground Forces”.

 

Planes need a lot more to do and more ways to support the team than just occasionally popping a player tank. Tankers need an active method to more rapidly end games when the other team has just planes left. Larger bombers need a better role in the mode period.

 

Copy-pasting bot targets from Air Battles to GF maps would do just that. 

 

The problems I’m aiming to solve are many:

- the paradox of CAS in Ground Forces

- lack of other objectives for CAS in GFs

- actually making the point people try to say in Air RB actually valid when they say “take your bombers & attackers to GFs!”

- making planes more of a staple feature and not powerups anymore.

- making more game type options for both planes and tanks besides sit in circle simulator

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  • _Catweazle_63 changed the title to Close Air Support in Ground RB: Updated Version Post-1.71
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