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Close Air Support in Ground RB: Updated Version Post-1.71


9 minutes ago, SasquatchFox360 said:

Who thinks they should make tanks a 2 player ordeal where one steers and the other player shoot the main gun and the driver controls commanders machine gun and the main gunner and controls the lower mounted machine gun

Could be an option for Sim perhaps, but not conducive to the main game.

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37 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

I wonder, would lowering the spawn cost of both fighters and CAS so both could be first-spawn units w/o cap rushing achieve the same effect as what @DeKrieg was proposing with Squadron RB?

 

I personally think that is the best way to solve Cap-N-Rush; however, as I mentioned they need to be balanced as a unit with Ground vehicles.     Currently Air has the upper hand with increased earnings, rapid time to battle, and two categories of spawns to pull from.   The higher unit cost is nullified by the earnings.   This is the whole reason Cap-N-Fly exists as they're a superior unit in Ground RB.

 

If Air has two categories ground should too and SPAA doesn't count as they're primarily an Air counter.       Putting TD's and Lights into the SPAA category,  getting rid of categories all together, or limiting Air to one category are all something that can be done.  

 

Heck, I would be happy with darn near anything as long as the issues are looked at and resolutions formed that allows the different styles of play (Strictly Air, Strictly Ground, or combined) from a balanced point of view.     

 

Right now they are a Power up...   Lots of people will jump through every hoop in their way to get a Power up.

 

 

Edited by Sidiros
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16 minutes ago, ArchangelLexael said:

Then just put some-of these targets close-enough to the battlefield that planes have to risk against SPAA in order to attack them, but not so close that Player Tanks are a more appealing option and not (necessarily) so close that tanks can kill them all without need for planes.

Did you not read what I proposed in the OP? This would be exactly what happens. 

 

- A whole line of “spawn defense” units just in front of tank spawn points

- three supply convoys starting at minibases and quickly driving to that respective side’s spawn points

- bombing bases moved within range of enemy tank guns lobbing HE

- arty units around each bombing point that would vary depending on the nation and tier they’re fighting in. Time to give matchups some variation in how arty is used. A single shell from a Schwerer Gustav for German Tier 4, a two-minute Katyusha barrage for Russia, etc etc for specific nations.

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35 minutes ago, Sidiros said:

I personally think that is the best way to solve Cap-N-Rush

another way is remove cap zones ;) 

28 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

two-minute Katyusha barrage for Russia

ARE U GODDAMN SERIOUS?!

 

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Just now, LuftMaus said:

another way is remove cap zones ;) 

 

 

Not really as they'd just run around spraying everyone to get an assist then Jump out to Aircraft.      It would just change names to "Assist-N-Fly"

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7 minutes ago, LuftMaus said:

another way is remove cap zones

 

Mm, yes, the heavy tank players would adore having no objectives so they could hull down and stay there. I'm thinking that'd be boring. Anyone crazy enough to bring a light tank would get to play Hide In Spawn Thunder!

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Simple reduce the visibility planes have over the battlefield. Put an algorithm in that calculates, tank visibility percentage + Environmental cover (Bushes, Forest, Houses etc.pp) and make Plane guns not anymore be able to shoot through massive obstacles like houses,Trees, Rocks.

 

The main problem at the moment is the near ULQ visibility of planes opposed to ground-units.

 

Best example are those that drive through an dense Forrest and yet get through the tree crown spotted by planes as those do not render.

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27 minutes ago, LuftMaus said:

ARE U GODDAMN SERIOUS?!

Yeah, it would give planes a purpose to destroy things like:

- Russian Katyushas

- American Long Toms

- Specific high-ranking arty units for UK, FR, JP, IT, etc

- German K5 or Schwerer Gustav type guns

 

They’d look awesome and diversify gameplay significantly, especially if we ever got fully destructible environments that artillery and mobile arty units could directly demolish.

5 minutes ago, NO_DRAGON said:

Simple reduce the visibility planes have over the battlefield. Put an algorithm in that calculates, tank visibility percentage + Environmental cover (Bushes, Forest, Houses etc.pp) and make Plane guns not anymore be able to shoot through massive obstacles like houses,Trees, Rocks.

 

The main problem at the moment is the near ULQ visibility of planes opposed to ground-units.

 

Best example are those that drive through an dense Forrest and yet get through the tree crown spotted by planes as those do not render.

This should also be fixed, I agree.

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55 minutes ago, OldDeadMan said:

 

Mm, yes, the heavy tank players would adore having no objectives so they could hull down and stay there. I'm thinking that'd be boring. Anyone crazy enough to bring a light tank would get to play Hide In Spawn Thunder!

battle mode looks similiar ;p

37 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Yeah, it would give planes a purpose to destroy things like:

- Russian Katyushas

A battery of four BM-13 launchers could fire a salvo in 7–10 seconds that delivered 4.35 tons of high explosives over a 400,000-square-metre (4,300,000 sq ft) impact zone,[2] making its power roughly equivalent to that of 72 conventional artillery guns

lets say it will be 24 katyusha, amount of exploisves delivered will be INSANE!

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1 minute ago, LuftMaus said:

A battery of four BM-13 launchers could fire a salvo in 7–10 seconds that delivered 4.35 tons of high explosives over a 400,000-square-metre (4,300,000 sq ft) impact zone,[2] making its power roughly equivalent to that of 72 conventional artillery guns

lets say it will be 24 katyusha, amount of exploisves delivered will be INSANE!

The idea was that the German Schwerer Gustav would shoot a single 7-ton shell to completely obliterate a capture point and all cover within it, while other nations would have larger numbers of units to ultimately match that.

 

And all of them would be juicy targets for planes.

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So, is there at least one point we could all get behind? 

 

@DeKrieg, perhaps such a point could be lowering spawn costs of CAS fighters, unloaded fighters, attackers, and bombers to levels below the initial 450SP amount every player is given at match start?

 

Or, what about going the route of the Spawn Point Simulator Battles tests? Everyone gets 1000 points at the start of the match and nobody can earn more spawn points.

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21 hours ago, NO_DRAGON said:

Simple reduce the visibility planes have over the battlefield. Put an algorithm in that calculates, tank visibility percentage + Environmental cover (Bushes, Forest, Houses etc.pp) and make Plane guns not anymore be able to shoot through massive obstacles like houses,Trees, Rocks.

 

The main problem at the moment is the near ULQ visibility of planes opposed to ground-units.

 

Best example are those that drive through an dense Forrest and yet get through the tree crown spotted by planes as those do not render.

 

Speaking as one who is currently playing on maximum graphics settings, I'm just going to say that most tankers don't really know how to hide from air. Near ULQ is not what I'm getting. Those trees are rendered. 

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3 hours ago, OldDeadMan said:

 

Speaking as one who is currently playing on maximum graphics settings, I'm just going to say that most tankers don't really know how to hide from air. Near ULQ is not what I'm getting. Those trees are rendered. 

And likewise, I’ve played both ULQ and Custom Settings just above ULQ after 1.77 and the sort of problems you describe seem to no longer exist.

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On 13/04/2018 at 12:00 AM, Sidiros said:

 

I agree and really don't think mouse aim has much to do with CAS as we're dealing with Area of effect weapons for the most part.     

 

Your joking right?

 

Only in RB does my Type 60/Type61/SU-100P/M50 Ontos/M56/T92/Nashorn/Sturer Emil/every open top/weak armor tank available get strafed mercilessly by basic machine guns and cannons on planes to great effect. Nothing like killing someone with my SU-100P so he respawns in a 109 and strafes me in one go killing my exposed crew. 

 

Only in RB do rockets home in on my tank in the first pass with deadly precision.

 

Only in RB do people release bombs that land inside your tank probably over 75% of the time because they don't have to worry about cockpit obstruction below them when in their final dive.

 

Only in RB can people utilize third person + mouse aim to spot my tank under a building (Stalingrad Winter map) and instantly tell the auto pilot to fly right to me.

 

Only in RB is the average or unskilled player able to get CAS kills constantly and revenge bombing is immensely popular and powerful

 

Quote

Now,   cockpit view....     That would be interesting and add a whole other aspect to it that I would probably enjoy as I used to do a lot of CAS in WWIIOnline;  although, as DeKrieg mentioned this would just make it less accessible to the average player and harder for them.    Skilled players aren't going to be disadvantaged at all and actually would hold a bigger advantage as the necessary skill gap for being effective increases. 

 

 

 

 

 

The skill ceiling is already so low that there really should be no problems with such a simple raise.

 

The addition of cockpit and nothing else does a few good things.

 

1) makes ground spotting harder

2) makes air spotting harder, instead of literally spawning and being able to see enemy dot in 2 seconds which leads to head on thunder

3) cant put mouse cursor 180 degrees behind you, therefore reducing head on thunder and auto fly

4) makes dropping ordinance require some slight preparation.


There's also a reduction in ridiculous maneuvers, because in third person you don't feel or see the effects of the camera shaking or moving as your plane does.  

 

 

Edited by DaffanZ
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3 hours ago, DaffanZ said:

 

Your joking right?

 

Only in RB does my Type 60/Type61/SU-100P/M50 Ontos/M56/T92/Nashorn/Sturer Emil/every open top/weak armor tank available get strafed mercilessly by basic machine guns and cannons on planes to great effect. Nothing like killing someone with my SU-100P so he respawns in a 109 and strafes me in one go killing my exposed crew. 

 

Only in RB do rockets home in on my tank in the first pass with deadly precision.

 

Only in RB do people release bombs that land inside your tank probably over 75% of the time because they don't have to worry about cockpit obstruction below them when in their final dive.

 

Only in RB can people utilize third person + mouse aim to spot my tank under a building (Stalingrad Winter map) and instantly tell the auto pilot to fly right to me.

 

Only in RB is the average or unskilled player able to get CAS kills constantly and revenge bombing is immensely popular and powerful

 

 

The skill ceiling is already so low that there really should be no problems with such a simple raise.

 

The addition of cockpit and nothing else does a few good things.

 

1) makes ground spotting harder

2) makes air spotting harder, instead of literally spawning and being able to see enemy dot in 2 seconds which leads to head on thunder

3) cant put mouse cursor 180 degrees behind you, therefore reducing head on thunder and auto fly

4) makes dropping ordinance require some slight preparation.


There's also a reduction in ridiculous maneuvers, because in third person you don't feel or see the effects of the camera shaking or moving as your plane does.  

 

 

I’m really trying to understand how you feel, but honestly, you’re complaining about the wrong aspect of things, and about one that likely will never get changed. 

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2 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

I’m really trying to understand how you feel, but honestly, you’re complaining about the wrong aspect of things, and about one that likely will never get changed. 

 

Your so bad at quoting I can't even tell which part your responding too, the forced cockpit  or my MA response to the other guy who doesn't even know what he's talking about.

 

 

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I'm really not sure why everyone who is complaining isn't in Sim. Cockpit mode? Joystick controls? Less planes? Higher skill floor? Arcade-like tank controls while planes require real finesse and skill? All present in Sim. If the population in Sim is large enough, they'll even be able to open it up to all BRs all the time. 

 

By trying to change RB into SB with markers, you are denying the mode you really want from progressing.

 

RB as it is now is a great spot for people who are casual players who don't want armed go karts or being marked constantly, but don't have the time to spend on joysticks or messing around with mouse joy. In my case, my desk is functional for things other than gaming, so only once in a while do I clear it off, set up the stick and sim. 

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While I agree as a tank-only player, CAS should remain in Ground Forces I would appreciate certain changes to the meta. First and foremost spawning into a plane which is not solely a fighter should require much more spawn points alongside with a higher SL cost. Planes in my opinion should be a reward for good and skillful play, the player should have had a major impact towards the overall goal of the game.

It should not be allowed under any circumstances to just cap out with a low BR tank and then J-out for CAS spawn. I loathe certain players, having overall more airspawns and/or kills in GF mode (literally 0 airmatches) thank ground vehicles and their main goal to annoy the **** out of players actually interested in tank gameplay.

Furthermore it should not be possible for players to suicide bomb ground vehicles and then spawn in another plane or tank. When you get shot down, fine, but intentionally just dropping your ordnance a split second before hitting the ground is just cheap and requires 0 skill. Those players should only be able to return to the hangar at that point.

Edited by TheKingHomer
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27 minutes ago, TheKingHomer said:

While I agree as a tank-only player, CAS should remain in Ground Forces I would appreciate certain changes to the meta. First and foremost spawning into a plane which is not solely a fighter should require much more spawn points alongside with a higher SL cost. Planes in my opinion should be a reward for good and skillful play, the player should have had a major impact towards the overall goal of the game.

It should not be allowed under any circumstances to just cap out with a low BR tank and then J-out for CAS spawn. I loathe certain players, having overall more airspawns and/or kills in GF mode (literally 0 airmatches) thank ground vehicles and their main goal to annoy the **** out of players actually interested in tank gameplay.

Furthermore it should not be possible for players to suicide bomb ground vehicles and then spawn in another plane or tank. When you get shot down, fine, but intentionally just dropping your ordnance a split second before hitting the ground is just cheap and requires 0 skill. Those players should only be able to return to the hangar at that point.

Or in the likeness of squadron battles we could lower spawn costs of all plane types so planes on both sides balance each other out.

 

Planes being effectively a powerup in the mode is a problem. If made harder to obtain you’ll see less of them spamming ordinance, but those that get them will be the better players who know how to use it and the whining from tank players will continue.

 

I just want to find some possible way to shut up all the whiny tankers. I got bombed a couple times yesterday while playing 5.3 Russians. And the day before that I was bombed a couple times while trying to play my Jagdtiger, only one of those instances was very questionable because I hadn’t done literally anything yet to harm the enemy team while my friendlies were in a pitched battle for the zone cap - why bomb me of all people and not the people actively engaged with your own team?

 

 

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1 hour ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Planes being effectively a powerup in the mode is a problem. If made harder to obtain you’ll see less of them spamming ordinance, but those that get them will be the better players who know how to use it and the whining from tank players will continue.

 

It is a difficult situation I agree yet I keep on whining when being revenge or suicide killed. Yes sometimes I am in a xxxx position, overexposed and I deserve to be blown up but most times I am in a good position or just overpowered an enemy opponent and instead of encountering me in a different tank it's far easier to just suicide bomb into me with much to no effort. Try to "quickly" switch positions in a heavy tank to avoid any revenge bombing by *insert plane here* which spawns 1km away from the battlefield...

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41 minutes ago, TheKingHomer said:

 

It is a difficult situation I agree yet I keep on whining when being revenge or suicide killed. Yes sometimes I am in a xxxx position, overexposed and I deserve to be blown up but most times I am in a good position or just overpowered an enemy opponent and instead of encountering me in a different tank it's far easier to just suicide bomb into me with much to no effort. Try to "quickly" switch positions in a heavy tank to avoid any revenge bombing by *insert plane here* which spawns 1km away from the battlefield...

The only way to stop revenge/suicide bombing is a combination of all planes spawning on AF and removal of the kill cam from RB GF.

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I'm playing mostly below 5.3 these days and haven't played my 5.7+ vehicles recently but at those BR I personally don't have much problems with CAS really, and it surprises me how much complaints there are still. As said, I can't really comment about high BR CAS but on the lower end it doesn't look all that bad to me.

 

Sure there's specific planes that have BR or other problems but overall I don't feel that they're overpowered, or very underpowered either. As for SPAA I don't find it all that hard to use either once you got the hang of it. Despite mouseaim you still have to do a steady approach to bomb or use your cannons on ground targets which makes planes a good target. Getting strafed as SPAA is a problem, but from my impression it's not a big problem either - if you play with planes in mind you can avoid being spotted/strafed from the air most of the time by staying near obstacles/trees. Killing planes isn't all that hard either. From my impression you get easy kills if you go where planes are likely to attack(eg caps, spawns depending how he match went etc) try to stay near cover and only open up if a plane makes its attack run. Being strafed as AA is mostly a problem when you use the SPAA to cap or as a makeshift TD - ie things AA vehicles aren't intended for. Obviously some SPAA are worse than others, but I could make most of them work so far. The So-Ki could be a bit lower in BR but it does fine as AA vehicle at 3.3 IMO.

 

The only thing I'd personally change is SL/RP gains for planes - they're too high compared to ground vehicles.

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6 hours ago, AtomicPope said:

I'm playing mostly below 5.3 these days and haven't played my 5.7+ vehicles recently but at those BR I personally don't have much problems with CAS really, and it surprises me how much complaints there are still. As said, I can't really comment about high BR CAS but on the lower end it doesn't look all that bad to me.

 

Sure there's specific planes that have BR or other problems but overall I don't feel that they're overpowered, or very underpowered either. As for SPAA I don't find it all that hard to use either once you got the hang of it. Despite mouseaim you still have to do a steady approach to bomb or use your cannons on ground targets which makes planes a good target. Getting strafed as SPAA is a problem, but from my impression it's not a big problem either - if you play with planes in mind you can avoid being spotted/strafed from the air most of the time by staying near obstacles/trees. Killing planes isn't all that hard either. From my impression you get easy kills if you go where planes are likely to attack(eg caps, spawns depending how he match went etc) try to stay near cover and only open up if a plane makes its attack run. Being strafed as AA is mostly a problem when you use the SPAA to cap or as a makeshift TD - ie things AA vehicles aren't intended for. Obviously some SPAA are worse than others, but I could make most of them work so far. The So-Ki could be a bit lower in BR but it does fine as AA vehicle at 3.3 IMO.

 

The only thing I'd personally change is SL/RP gains for planes - they're too high compared to ground vehicles.

Ground units need SL and RP buffs, planes don’t need further nerfs.

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  • _Catweazle_63 changed the title to Close Air Support in Ground RB: Updated Version Post-1.71
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