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Close Air Support in Ground RB: Updated Version Post-1.71


51 minutes ago, Sidiros said:

 

Re-inventing the mode would be harder to pull off than just tweaking what we have slightly....    What you mentioned here would take a long time if it was ever agreed upon.    Tweaking those points you had a few posts above could be had pretty quickly if it ever got traction with Gaijin.

 

 

Except RB GF maps already have airfields and bombing points though the latter are inactive currently.

 

RB GF maps also once had active pillboxes that players could kill. Sure they would need slightly refined damage models compared to Air Battles but people have plopped them on Custom Battles maps and Light Pillboxes are killable using player tank cannons.

 

And then plopping a few lines of trucks and drawing a path for them to move isn’t that hard to do either, it’s copying what they already do for Air RB.

 

A piecemeal solution will only create more holes for the playerbase to exploit. Planes need a lot more stuff to do so they aren’t forced to either kill player tanks or do nothing at all.

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1 minute ago, StankFaust said:

proof that you can lead a horse to water...  before deciding that mouse aim is not an issue in the accurate delivery of said ordinance, maybe try the mode without mouse aim, you know, for some experience.  

 

WWIIOnline.......   You might have missed that above..

 

I agree mouse aim is immense for dogfighting and getting guns on target; however, for bombs and rockets?    It will be a negligible impact for CAS as pin-point accuracy isn't necessary; although, it would make fighters have a much tougher time intercepting said CAS.

Edited by Sidiros
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1 minute ago, Sidiros said:

I agree mouse aim is immense for dogfighting and getting guns on target; however, for bombs and rockets?    It will be a negligible impact for CAS; although, it would make fighters have a much tougher time intercepting said CAS.

 

again, give it a try and report back.  Dont dismiss my experience with your supposition.

 

CAS is massively affected by the ease of mouse aim/simple controls and to suggest otherwise is ignorant. (meaning you have not flown the mode and investigated the efficacy between realistic controls and simple, I have.)  it isnt there.  it's VERY challenging to hit accurately with ordinance when you are actually flying the plane instead of pointing it.

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3 minutes ago, StankFaust said:

 

again, give it a try and report back.  Dont dismiss my experience with your supposition.

 

CAS is massively affected by the ease of mouse aim/simple controls and to suggest otherwise is ignorant. (meaning you have not flown the mode and investigated the efficacy between realistic controls and simple, I have.)  it isnt there.  it's VERY challenging to hit accurately with ordinance when you are actually flying the plane instead of pointing it.

 

After having years of Sim experience in WWIIOnline, Aces High, IL2, and Air Warrior;  I don't need to try anything to know that delivering bombs/rockets in close proximity to a target is Easy once you get used to the control scheme.   

 

All you're doing is setting the beginner skill floor higher and an experienced player will have no added difficulty at all.   In fact; they'll have an easier time as you also just raised the skill floor and entry costs massively higher for the beginner player trying to intercept that CAS.

 

War Thunder is not some unique Airplane game that no other is like.

 

Now, I like your cockpit idea as that would hinder Situational Awareness, the ability to identify ground targets, and hit those targets massively across all skill levels.

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36 minutes ago, Sidiros said:

I don't need to try anything to know that delivering bombs/rockets in close proximity to a target is Easy once you get used to the control scheme.

 

well, then you'll stay in the same limited thinking that you are displaying here, previous experience notwithstanding. 

 

on the other hand, the solution I am proposing is one I use (voluntarily) every day.  I play realistic mode with realistic controls.  I would not offer a position on a solution that I was not at least acquainted with.

 

36 minutes ago, Sidiros said:

All you're doing is setting the beginner skill floor higher and an experienced player will have no added difficulty at all.

 

on the contrary, accurate weapons delivery is ALWAYS a challenge when you are 'flying', and if you can do it accurately, then you've learned a skill rather than having the table leveled by some arcade cheese. the difference between accuracy with Mouse Aim/simple versus realistic controls is night and day.  

 

 

 

 

Edited by StankFaust
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22 minutes ago, StankFaust said:

on the other hand, the solution I am proposing is one I use (voluntarily) every day.  I play realistic mode with realistic controls.  I would not offer a position on a solution that I was not at least acquainted with.

 

No doubt;  you're playing Real controls, in the cockpit, against mouse users with instructor and 3rd person super SA....   Yeah, you are playing as hard as you possibly can get it.    Kudos to you as I wouldn't do that if you paid me.  lol

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

on the contrary, accurate weapons delivery is ALWAYS a challenge when you are 'flying', and if you can do it accurately, then you've learned a skill rather than having the table leveled by some arcade cheese. the difference between accuracy with Mouse Aim/simple versus realistic controls is night and day.  

 

 

 

Yes,  when getting guns on target in dog fighting against a maneuvering target the difference is drastic.    Although, with practice;  dropping bombs near a target is about as easy as you can get it.     

 

 

Edited by Sidiros
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20 minutes ago, Sidiros said:

 

Yes,  when getting guns on target in dog fighting against a maneuvering target the difference is drastic.    Although, with practice;  dropping bombs near a target is about as easy as you can get it.     

 

 

 

On top of that it's a lot less difficulty when you have no pressure on you because there is almost nothing in the air.

 

I just had a game in sim where a player in a f9F practically had the sky to himself with no spaa or opposing aircraft to engage him. So he took his time and killed 2 tanks easily enough with his bombload.

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Yep, I’m not surprised to find that altering the control method wouldn’t change much of a damn thing. 

 

Cockpit only would only work if the rocket and bomb nerfs got fully undone, because using a good many planes, aiming low-velocity rockets is borderline impossible from what I can tell. RP-3s are hard to aim from cockpit but are doable. Japanese Type 5 rockets are even lower velocity. Tiny Tims are extremely low velocity and have a stupidly large blast radius against the launching plane. HVARs as far as I could remember were relatively straightforward.

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1 hour ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Cockpit only would only work if the rocket and bomb nerfs got fully undone, because using a good many planes, aiming low-velocity rockets is borderline impossible from what I can tell. RP-3s are hard to aim from cockpit but are doable. Japanese Type 5 rockets are even lower velocity. Tiny Tims are extremely low velocity and have a stupidly large blast radius against the launching plane. HVARs as far as I could remember were relatively straightforward.

 

Yeah,  from cockpit view in most planes your view is obscured by the nose when utilizing low angle attacks.      In order to get any kind of real accuracy you have to come in at a high angle from a much higher altitude.    Actually dive bomb.

 

I used to flip on my back (To see the target up over the canopy) and basically split S over the target.    That is if I knew where my target was...      Identifying targets would also be a challenge as you can't just look through the floor (on most planes.)    Lots of banking and loitering over the target area...

 

It would be a cool dynamic and would help SPAA greatly pick them up; however, yeah..  as you mentioned I think we would need more powerful weapons again.       It would be a lot of fun and more interesting; however, those points on the previous page (SP earnings, suitable defense, and time to battle) still need addressed.

Edited by Sidiros
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And I think it would be a very good idea to have alternative targets besides exclusively player tanks.

 

It seems that the typical player whines about whatever kills them, and planes are no exception. And it would make otherwise useless non-fighters worth something in GFs as a side effect, so it’s a win-win. 

 

Tankers are no longer the only targets, fighters and AA get plenty of more things to try going after, big bombers and attackers get an escape from utter uselessness in the TDM arena that is the majority of Air RB maps (really only excluding Normandy).

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8 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

And I think it would be a very good idea to have alternative targets besides exclusively player tanks.

 

It seems that the typical player whines about whatever kills them, and planes are no exception. And it would make otherwise useless non-fighters worth something in GFs as a side effect, so it’s a win-win. 

 

Tankers are no longer the only targets, fighters and AA get plenty of more things to try going after, big bombers and attackers get an escape from utter uselessness in the TDM arena that is the majority of Air RB maps (really only excluding Normandy).

 

I'm still not sold on this one as I know I'd still be trying primarily to destroy other players.    There are maps now with lots of AI tanks and I try to avoid them like the plague.      The only way I'd go after AI is if it contributed to the win more than killing players did (as in AB Air) and we all know how that feels to lose to (or even be a part of) that kind of game play.

 

As far as getting killed by Air as a tank goes; I know I get primarily frustrated when killed by Air as I know they get more points for killing me with less effort than I get for killing them.   It's just not fair....   

Edited by Sidiros
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1 hour ago, Sidiros said:

 

I'm still not sold on this one as I know I'd still be trying primarily to destroy other players.    There are maps now with lots of AI tanks and I try to avoid them like the plague.      The only way I'd go after AI is if it contributed to the win more than killing players did (as in AB Air) and we all know how that feels to lose to (or even be a part of) that kind of game play.

 

As far as getting killed by Air as a tank goes; I know I get primarily frustrated when killed by Air as I know they get more points for killing me with less effort than I get for killing them.   It's just not fair....   

Well, planes need something besides player tanks to shoot at if the complaints against planes are ever to cease in Ground Forces. And those things need to help your team win as well. And the reward for these needs to be more than the current chump change the AI tanks are on GF maps.

- something like three light ground units = one player

- two hardened things (Light & Heavy Pillboxes) = one player

- bombing bases would be worth roughly two players reward wise

 

In reality, air support won battles by cutting supply lines to enemy tanks and by harassing front line fortifications. Even if the enemy managed to for the moment win on the ground (sorta like what happened during and after the Battle of the Bulge, Germany was winning initial skirmishes - the equivalent of the game matches - but as soon as weather allowed for air support to start coming in things turned around by hitting the tanks in their support infrastructure.

 

I wouldn’t object even to allowing player SPAAG with lead indicators to spawn next to bombing bases (where the artillery platoons would be), and spawn next to the supply convoys. Air Battles maps have terrain player tanks can drive on quite fine. Then it wouldn’t be a complete free-for-all for the planes to bleed up to half of a team’s tickets with out-of-tank-map things.

 

Player SPAAG sitting in spawn zones would be able to defend something useful, the front lines of pillboxes, AT guns, howitzers, and BMG nests.

 

With all of those much easier targets to handle than the player tanks, this takes the heat off of player tanks unless the team specifically asks in chat “plane, go bomb the guy camping up on the ridge on the Poland West Spawn”, for example.

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37 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Well, planes need something besides player tanks to shoot at if the complaints against planes are ever to cease in Ground Forces. And those things need to help your team win as well. And the reward for these needs to be more than the current chump change the AI tanks are on GF maps.

- something like three light ground units = one player

- two hardened things (Light & Heavy Pillboxes) = one player

- bombing bases would be worth roughly two players reward wise

 

In reality, air support won battles by cutting supply lines to enemy tanks and by harassing front line fortifications. Even if the enemy managed to for the moment win on the ground (sorta like what happened during and after the Battle of the Bulge, Germany was winning initial skirmishes - the equivalent of the game matches - but as soon as weather allowed for air support to start coming in things turned around by hitting the tanks in their support infrastructure.

 

I wouldn’t object even to allowing player SPAAG with lead indicators to spawn next to bombing bases (where the artillery platoons would be), and spawn next to the supply convoys. Air Battles maps have terrain player tanks can drive on quite fine. Then it wouldn’t be a complete free-for-all for the planes to bleed up to half of a team’s tickets with out-of-tank-map things.

 

Player SPAAG sitting in spawn zones would be able to defend something useful, the front lines of pillboxes, AT guns, howitzers, and BMG nests.

 

With all of those much easier targets to handle than the player tanks, this takes the heat off of player tanks unless the team specifically asks in chat “plane, go bomb the guy camping up on the ridge on the Poland West Spawn”, for example.

 

I understand what you're saying; however, I don't feel it will fix the current CAS issue nor should be implemented in Ground RB.    Those items you mentioned seems to fit more within an Enduring Confrontation mode.   A longer, more "Campaign" type of game mode and I think those ideas would be excellent for it.

 

Ground RB to me seems to be a more direct localized smaller Battle.    Given this; I personally feel that it doesn't belong in the mode and would just increase frustration levels for Tankers as they start losing due to factors that are completely outside of their control.    Similar to how the Fighter jocks have been complaining about Ground Strike in Air AB for as long as I've played this game.

 

Tanker frustration would be far less if Air units were balanced with Ground and currently they are not due to Earnings and Spawn categories.    If they were balanced; then there would be far less complaints as you would actually have to sacrifice something to use them.   You are playing at a disadvantage if you don't play with all categories of vehicles in Ground RB.  Taking advantage of the different categories and avoiding the spawn doubling (For only same categories) and earnings differential give a huge advantage to players that play all categories.

 

If they would address this and support all play styles equally; regardless, if you fly or not the mode would be better for it.   I'm not even sure why they went down this path.   It's painfully obvious that not everyone wants to fly nor does everyone want to Tank.    They do it with SB also; however, it's less obvious as SIM flying is so much harder and fewer people do it.

 

Take the 7 spawn vid I had earlier...   Was I mad that I was bombed as my last T25 spawn?    Not at all; because, I had already bombed several players with Air (4 spawns,) used my SPAA to get to Air, and it was my second tank spawn.      Had I just been playing tanks, earning much lower SP, and hadn't even earned another Tank respawn yet though..    Yeah, I'd be upset and for good reason as it's just not balanced.

 

 

Edited by Sidiros
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Just one remark about having non player tanks or structures as targets. If they bleed tickets, tankers WILL howl that they are unable to stop an enemy air team from winning the game. If they do NOT bleed tickets, then aircraft will ignore them outright, except the occasional guy farming points. Then tankers will complain that guy got first place without taking any real risk. 

 

Pick your poison, please! 

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37 minutes ago, OldDeadMan said:

Just one remark about having non player tanks or structures as targets. If they bleed tickets, tankers WILL howl that they are unable to stop an enemy air team from winning the game. If they do NOT bleed tickets, then aircraft will ignore them outright, except the occasional guy farming points. Then tankers will complain that guy got first place without taking any real risk. 

 

Pick your poison, please! 

Well they can’t have no poisons, and the tanks would be able to destroy most or all of these targets in any match lasting 10 min or so, the supply lines would drive up to spawn points and be killable.

 

Here are the actual poisons they have to pick from:

- get bombed directly by player aircraft

- or have planes be able to win by means besides killing player tanks, thus they aren’t directly bombing your tank as often.

 

These AI targets would be worth up to half of a team’s tickets. Bombing points would be additional bleed options and be identical in how much tonnage they take as in air battles. 

 

The existence of these would make zone caps much more crucial to keep control of. 

Edited by MH4UAstragon
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Going to throw out 2 points.

 

1.  Ground battles should not be able to be won with solely aircraft, period.  If you want AI tanks re-implemented to give you some lions or some more spawn points, be my guest.  However, ticket count should really only be changed through the actions of tanks.  

2.  Stop trying to make RB more like simulator battles. 

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10 hours ago, KaiserMelech said:

Going to throw out 2 points.

 

1.  Ground battles should not be able to be won with solely aircraft, period.  If you want AI tanks re-implemented to give you some lions or some more spawn points, be my guest.  However, ticket count should really only be changed through the actions of tanks.  

2.  Stop trying to make RB more like simulator battles. 

1. And that is why ideally you’d see between 50% and 66% of a team’s tickets as bleedable by aircraft, not exclusively bleedable by aircraft. 

- line of spawn defenses: everyone can kill these, be them planes or tanks. Though if all SPAAG get buffed, these would actually be more an objective for tankers to bust through since most SPAAG players sit in their own spawns with them. These units would also actively discourage spawn killing, which is harder than before due to map markers for people too close to spawns, but with a good gun and enough distance people still do it. 

- three supply lines emanating from the bombing points to the spawn points for tanks, these would be killable by tanks late-game but are admittedly more of a plane thing. 

- bombing targets would be mostly a plane thing, though I’m all for moving said targets around so that tanks have the opporitunity to shell them as well

- artillery platoons would be situated around each bombing point, these would be mostly a plane target but like bombing points, if positioned correctly then tanks would be able to shell these as well.

 

Planes need a lot more things to do in order for tankers to not have nearly as much ordinance raining on their heads. The way things are now, planes have literally nothing else to use it on. Plain and simple.

 

And the rewards from these things need to be more than chump change too, to encourage planes to use some of their flying time and weapons on these. In addition to ticket bleeding, perhaps defending friendly supply lines for however long it takes them to get to your side’s spawn could incur the entire team a lump sum RP, SL, SP, and positive ticket gain benefit. 

 

I will say cockpit only is worth experimenting with, but I’m not the one pushing for that beyond a test event or something.

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10 hours ago, DeKrieg said:

 

 

Okay, just watched this, and I agree actually with a lot of your points. I’ve played some Squadron RB with friends and yes it actually is pretty entertaining. 

 

I certainly could see 32 vs 32 games where half the side is queued up as planes and half the side is queued up as tanks, everyone gets only one spawn, and so forth. 

 

Instead of removing bombers I’d prefer to move their airspawns much further back.

 

And then adding new objectives worth tickets on GF maps for planes (and in several cases tanks too) to kill will also help out the situation.

 

Here is what I really want to know though. CAS needs to get un-nerfed regarding bomb splash radius vs tanks (and with certain weapons like Tiny Tims, splash vs the launching plane needs to be massively toned down). We either need to see rockets get un-nerfed or preferably corrected to reality because currently they are all generally underperforming on the US and UK side of things. Also US, UK, GER, and JP are missing either rocket types or additional warhead types for what they do have. My question is if we saw planes be queued from the start, would it be possible to un-nerf ordinance?

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11 hours ago, DeKrieg said:

 

 

 

This would be one way to achieve a team balance against Air and Ground.  This line of thinking could also be extrapolated out to # spaa, # scouts, # heavy tanks, etc.   This is a path Gaijin has never been willing to pursue and I personally like the fun in playing it all and adapting to a changing battle; however, I understand there are a substantial amount of players that dont want to play it all.

 

It takes the other side of the extreme and forces specialization.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

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@DeKrieg, I’d love to see something like what you propose in RB GF one day, but until then, we should focus more on uniting behind changes everyone can get behind that adapts the current state of the mode so aircraft actually fit in it.

 

This is why I’m proposing the points I’ve said:

- lower spawn costs of clean fighters to essentially balance out CAS in much the same way SQB does, however if one team spams too many or too few planes at the start then they’ll be swept on the ground. By the time the initial air clash ends we see CAS relegated to rooting out campers or acting as general cleanup duty.

- raising spawn costs of CAS so it’s out of Cap & Fly reach. Or perhaps instead there could just be a timer where people can’t spawn CAS until a certain amount of time in a match has passed.

- buffing SPAAG so that tank players can have some kind of working defense when their side’s air forces lose and are destroyed.

- and adding a hell of a lot more things to do so planes don’t have to kill player tanks to contribute meaningfully and so tank teams that win the ground don’t need to twiddle their thumbs for 5+ min waiting for tickets to bleed out when the enemy has only a plane or two hiding left.

- Then obviously balance out the spawn point gains between planes and tanks. I’d prefer to see tank on tank and tank on plane stuff increased, alongside seeing scoreboard points, RP gain, and SL gain increased for tank on tank and tank on plane interactions.

- Then with the methods of abuse fixed, maybe we can see some of the CAS weapon nerfs reversed. Because nerfing weapons is no different than making things harder to control, it raises the skill floor and makes planes overall useless to teams most of the time.

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2 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

@DeKrieg, I’d love to see something like what you propose in RB GF one day, but until then, we should focus more on uniting behind changes everyone can get behind that adapts the current state of the mode so aircraft actually fit in it.

 

 

/Agree

 

With this player base that's pretty challenging though..    

 

You probably have to concentrate on fixing a feature  that is obviously broken to get it done in a manner that doesn't impact the mode in any other way outside of fixing that broken aspect;  otherwise, you leave too much room for discussion and objections.    The game is just too undefined with little developer direction.

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I wonder, would lowering the spawn cost of both fighters and CAS so both could be first-spawn units w/o cap rushing achieve the same effect as what @DeKrieg was proposing with Squadron RB?

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16 hours ago, OldDeadMan said:

Just one remark about having non player tanks or structures as targets. If they bleed tickets, tankers WILL howl that they are unable to stop an enemy air team from winning the game. If they do NOT bleed tickets, then aircraft will ignore them outright, except the occasional guy farming points. Then tankers will complain that guy got first place without taking any real risk. 

 

Pick your poison, please! 

Then just put some-of these targets close-enough to the battlefield that planes have to risk against SPAA in order to attack them, but not so close that Player Tanks are a more appealing option and not (necessarily) so close that tanks can kill them all without need for planes.

Frankly, I think that a map like Jungle or Norway should have Ships as AI Targets, since they are close to the battlefield but generally-immune to tank weapons.

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Who thinks they should make tanks a 2 player ordeal where one steers and the other player shoot the main gun and the driver controls commanders machine gun and the main gunner and controls the lower mounted machine gun

Edited by SasquatchFox360

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  • _Catweazle_63 changed the title to Close Air Support in Ground RB: Updated Version Post-1.71
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