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Close Air Support in Ground RB: Updated Version Post-1.71


1 hour ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Last I checked HE blasts outwardly in a sphere so it shouldn’t care about angle much, if at all.

And thats what is wrong.

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2 minutes ago, NO_DRAGON said:

This game is not the property of the most skilled players

i agree but at the moment allot of the BR's are unbalanced meaning that regardless of skill you can still lose or end up dieing from frustrated players giving up cause they lose so often 

i played for one straight day losing i kid you not till i unlocked my m42 duster and then i started playing at a higher br and i ended up doing better than i did at the lower br just because of the upteirs

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Note guys, just because I’m resisting your points in terms of what the game overall needs doesn’t mean I’m fully against your ideas.

 

- it would be nice to experiment with SPAAG having proper sights as standard

- it would be nice to experiment with planes having only cockpit view in Ground Battles in exchange for un-nerfing all ordinance to 1.69 levels. 

- it would be nice to find ways to appropriately nerf the instructor, but I honestly don’t know how is the best way to do that, and much of the playerbase would revolt against such changes. 

 

Your ideas are definitely worth testing out in special events, I’ll say that much.

 

But my idea of extending the lead indicator buff to all SPAAG is the most practical and is the easiest thing for the devs to implement. That is why I support it. SPAA should be from a gameplay standpoint just as easy to use vs planes in RB as tanks are vs other tanks. And likewise, CAS weapon effectiveness needs to be such that CAS becomes reliable and strong vs tanks. But mechanics must be in place so it cannot be easily spammed and its counters are always present.

1 hour ago, KH_Alan said:

And thats what is wrong.

The HE blast shouldn’t be affected by angling, but I could see bomb fragments being affected since they are all still irregularly-shaped projectiles.

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2 hours ago, StankFaust said:

this is where your logic goes bye bye.  an spaa should not, ever, have parity with an attack aircraft.  1:3 k/d is pretty excellent in an spaa. 

In a game, you should be able to make anything competitive. Real life statistics only hold so much weight. 

 

If something isn’t competitive with casual players, it doesn’t get played. 

2 hours ago, StankFaust said:

I reliably kill planes in my spaa's and I never use them for rushing a cap.

You may manage to do this but not everybody can. In fact quite a small minority of people can reliably kill planes not headoning the SPAAG. 

2 hours ago, StankFaust said:

any further than what?  they arent nerfed at all.  Just because you've abdicated the fight doesn't mean Im going to.

Their ordinance is massively nerfed in effectiveness and has major reliability issues.

- HVARs and RP-3s ingame have incorrect pen and badly modelled postpen

- HVARs and RP-3s are missing HEAT and HESH warheads

- HEAT in general, both on rockets and tank shells, has terrible spalling that is in dire need of fixing

- Tiny Tims have killing power but massively overblown blast radii against the launching plane, rendering them inaccurate and suicidal to use against anything besides a milk truck.

- The Russian S-21 is incorrectly performing currently, but the rocket could be renamed into whatever variant of it was actually for ground attack. 

- Germany is missing a whole slew of rocket-propelled bombs, as is Japan

- German high tier fighters (G6, G10, G14, K4, D9  D12, D13) are missing the option to carry 2x 21cm rockets and 1x500kg bomb

- Many Japanese fighters are missing options to carry larger centerline bombs. 

- The Ki-102 is poorly modelled, missing HEAT rounds on the main gun, ordinance pylons, huge rocket bombs, torpedoes, and white phosphorous cluster bombs/rockets

- The Fw-190 F-8 is missing a 4x28cm rocket loadout in conjunction with up to a 1400kg bomb-torpedo.

- Germany, Italy, Japan, and even Russia suffer from the “superprop hole” in terms of capable high tier props from 5.7-6.3. Most of their early jets are overtiered and would fill this hole, while Italy specifically is just in need of 6.3 jets.

- Aside from the Ki-109, every other large-caliber cannon-armed plane has incorrectly modelled AP rounds missing caps and ballistic caps, causing lots of trollish bounces off the dumbest of things. For example the Kwk40 APCBC pens 60mm at 60 degrees sloped back, while the Hs-129 B-3 with the exact same gun modelled with AP-T pens only 45mm. Things like the PBJ-1H, XA-38, Tempest Vickers P, IL-2-37, Su-6s, 50mm Me-410s, and so forth also suffer from this problem.

- HVAP is hideously underperforming and several German planes with big guns rely on it for ground pounding ability. Also all tank APCR and APDS has incorrect pen and/or spalling. 

 

Tell me “planes aren’t nerfed at all” with a straight face. I dare you.

2 hours ago, SasquatchFox360 said:

i agree but at the moment allot of the BR's are unbalanced meaning that regardless of skill you can still lose or end up dieing from frustrated players giving up cause they lose so often 

i played for one straight day losing i kid you not till i unlocked my m42 duster and then i started playing at a higher br and i ended up doing better than i did at the lower br just because of the upteirs

This is a related but nevertheless relevant issue.

 

Back when CAS actually worked reliably, I did use cap rushing for CAS as a sort of uptier insurance when on maps I was completely useless on. 

 

If all SPAAG got buffed via the lead marker though I could play AA and advance behind my team’s tanks to cover them effectively instead.

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2 hours ago, NO_DRAGON said:

 

And know please provide a source where Gaijin is claiming that Wt is nothing else than an competitive and skill based game.

 

They never said so and they need to make economic decisions.

If you do not like those decisions, bad luck. If it keeps the casual money-bringing game survival guaranteeing players coming into the game and holds em I am OK with it.

 

This game is not the property of the most skilled players, it is a game made to attract a broad base of gamers that want to play an FtP game which means they even so need lots of players that are willed  

yo sink here and there some money into it to keep it FtP.

That is the same reason we have other casual player benefiting perks. As ULQ, daily boosters etc. pp.

 

And on the end the Dev's will do what is needed to make sure those casual players that are the majority are happy.

Simple as that.

Thank you for clearing this up better than I could.

Basically, CAS’s problem in 1.69 was it being high volume and high yield. 

 

These days, CAS is high-volume, low-yield, and incredibly frustrating to play. 

 

What I want to see it become is low-volume (aka hard to spam out and avoid countermeasures for) but high-yield (aim your weapons right and tanks die, no ground or objects soaking whole bombs so easily, no single module eating entire RP-3s, etc).

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2 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

In a game, you should be able to make anything competitive. Real life statistics only hold so much weight. If something isn’t competitive with casual players, it doesn’t get played.

I build a lineup to win the match.  only my top two spots have alpha vehicles in them, the rest is populated with spaa and td's and a plane.  the spaa is not equivalent to a tank nor a plane.  to request offensive parity here for  'game' sake is an arcade move and, easy or not, I'm opposed to it.

 

7 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

quite a small minority of people can reliably kill planes not headoning the SPAAG.

it is a teachable skill and I practice quite a bit.  if there is a plane within 700 meters he's gonna get hit.  stealth ammo belts in spaa's would be a better equalizer than a lead indicator.  By better, I mean better for the mode/game experience

 

11 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Tell me “planes aren’t nerfed at all” with a straight face. I dare you

the 'PLANES' are not nerfed at all.  i'm hugely opposed to the ordinance nerf and feel it was a bandaid placed over the issue of mouse aim being too easy for realistic combined arms.  the over simplification of mouse aim and third person view creates a lot of problems in an otherwise hi-fidelity mode.  adding arcade elements like a lead indicator reduces that hi fidelity immersion in the same annoying way that it takes no skill to ride around in a plane and blow people up.

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53 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

The HE blast shouldn’t be affected by angling, but I could see bomb fragments being affected since they are all still irregularly-shaped projectiles.

HE blast is mechanical wave and of course it should be affected by angling. Is water wave affected by angling?

 

You really think that blast wave would affect the same both surfaces in the image?

Untitled_1.jpg

Edited by KH_Alan
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5 hours ago, warrior412 said:

 

 

Your problem is with the kill cam then...but that was put in at the insistence of tankers.

 

 

No because the AMX-50 I killed was within 20 meters of my position. He knew exactly where I was, I just got the shot off first as he was reversing to shoot me. 

 

Kill cam or not, he was back in 20 seconds and rocketed me :)

1 hour ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Note guys, just because I’m resisting your points in terms of what the game overall needs doesn’t mean I’m fully against your ideas.

 

- it would be nice to experiment with SPAAG having proper sights as standard

- it would be nice to experiment with planes having only cockpit view in Ground Battles in exchange for un-nerfing all ordinance to 1.69 levels. 

- it would be nice to find ways to appropriately nerf the instructor, but I honestly don’t know how is the best way to do that, and much of the playerbase would revolt against such changes. 

 

 

Instructor I don't think will ever be touched but cockpit view is definitely possible, just like they removed name tags in RBGF already.

 

Maybe cockpit force alone will stop the stupid head on thunder and prop hang thunder.

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3 hours ago, NO_DRAGON said:

And know please provide a source where Gaijin is claiming that Wt is nothing else than an competitive and skill based game.

 

There are no sources, it's all clear that this is happening and it can all be witnessed by simply playing the game. Compared to when I started (which isn't too long ago even) I can already see that plenty of things have changed and become a lot more arcadish like other tank games, things like cupola shots doing massive damage, RNG levels, lead indicators and many more are a clear sign of the games direction. I hope I'm wrong but this is the impression I'm getting.

 

3 hours ago, NO_DRAGON said:

This game is not the property of the most skilled players, it is a game made to attract a broad base of gamers that want to play an FtP game which means they even so need lots of players that are willed  

 

That is not what I meant. What keeps players playing RB instead of AB or other arcade games out there is the fact that it is harder and more challenging and this is something the better players like and even the less skilled ones which all accept that. It's not a matter of skill but a matter of numbers, maybe they think that making the game easier and lowering the skill levels needed to be successful will attract more people, but I highly doubt that as the more challenging the game is the more entertaining it will be for most players (good or bad) and it will keep them playing and learning as they get satisfaction for getting kills with ability. I think that this is why they need to fix the game and improve what they already have created to make it better without needing to add more broken stuff that will only increase the issues like they are doing now or keep making mistakes in what they change, nerfing some nations ammo or the MM restrictions are just two examples.

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First, your impression is wrong. RB started in 2013 as HB and was somewhat like it is still now.

 

Mechanics changed yes, but that was due the change of units and adaption of more units.

So, the Developers needed to change mechanics to keep the playfield leveled.

 

Sec. You assume to know.

Fact is all the surveys Gaijin did, show rather that most coming to RB cause of the more realistic behaviour of the vehicle physics. No Mario cart bumber car sliding on full throttle around corners.

 

They like that this puts an certain element of difference in handling the units and more immersion really to steer such an vehicle. Might it be Air (Fighter to Bomber) or Ground (M3A1 Stuart to KTH)

 

And all Gaijin ever claimed is that they model the units as realistic as possible. As even they are aware that it is still only a Videogame that can never be 100% realistic.

There is nowhere on all the WT websites the claim that Bullets, shells, Bombs, Torpedoes etc.pp. are modeled realistically. 

That all game mechanics are based on realism or anything else out the units themself.

 

Everyone working in the industry, may it as Developer, designer, Tester, Advising staff, or such knows that certain realism breaking changes need to be done in any game (if it isn't promoted as hardcore Sim) to keep an nice gameplay alive.

 

And even hardcore simulations offer more often than not an option menu to scale down the ultra real handling to suit even less talented players an nice game.

 

Janes Apache Longbow / EF2000 from DID / Falcon 4.0 / F 18 Super Hornet Officers Edition.

 

Even IL 2 has an option menu to set the wanted realism scale, or the B 17 The mighty Eight Sim as seen here 

Unbenannt1.JPG.75beb3382732cc81b32626f99Unbenannt.thumb.JPG.a4c6cde6173590a7bf82

 

Which is an rather old Flightsim and somwhat one of the  grandfathers to Simulations nowadays as can be seen here

Unbenannt1.JPG.f93472454233b7ca565bc2ac4

 


 

 

 

And Gaijin is rather in the market of providing an MMO game that gets a broad spectrum of players and not an Hardcore online Sim ala Air Warrior.

Edited by NO_DRAGON
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5 hours ago, StankFaust said:

the 'PLANES' are not nerfed at all.  i'm hugely opposed to the ordinance nerf and feel it was a bandaid placed over the issue of mouse aim being too easy for realistic combined arms.  the over simplification of mouse aim and third person view creates a lot of problems in an otherwise hi-fidelity mode.  adding arcade elements like a lead indicator reduces that hi fidelity immersion in the same annoying way that it takes no skill to ride around in a plane and blow people up.

Oooooh, okay now I understand what you’re trying to say. So I guess we both agree the ordinance nerf(s) have been very stupid ideas?

 

Also, earlier today I outplayed a very stupid T29 driver on Volokolamsk by creeping in my Jagdtiger, guy drove right past me in the forest and didn’t notice me at all. I killed him (though with over 800g of TNT filling I was surprised it took more than one shot to the turret to do so), and then literally 45sec later a Tiny Tim lands near me and makes my engine dark orange. A second one splats in front of my tank and KOs my barrel and breech. The match was over at that point so I had no risk of dying, and the salty xxxx prioritized me over people in my team encircling their spawn. I couldn’t help but laugh. But had Tiny Tims not gotten nerfed both in how they drop like bombs & then fire, and the blast radius nerfs, I would have died in a very cheap move.

 

The real problems were the ability to spam ordinance, not the power of ordinance. But earlier today I got a bit of sweet revenge and shot down three planes (an N-bolt, a Vodkabolt, and an AD-4) with my Me-262 A-1a. Early German jets are simply at home in Ground Forces, where they can intercept the enemy almost unopposed since enemy jets are literally that rare. The last time I saw either a P-80A or Meteor in a GF match was before the rocket nerf.

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11 hours ago, DaffanZ said:

No because the AMX-50 I killed was within 20 meters of my position. He knew exactly where I was, I just got the shot off first as he was reversing to shoot me. 

 

Kill cam or not, he was back in 20 seconds and rocketed me :)

 

He could have just as easily come in a tank and killed you then.

 

20 seconds is also extremely doubtful too.

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13 hours ago, NO_DRAGON said:

Mechanics changed yes, but that was due the change of units and adaption of more units.

So, the Developers needed to change mechanics to keep the playfield leveled.

 

Sec. You assume to know.

Fact is all the surveys Gaijin did, show rather that most coming to RB cause of the more realistic behaviour of the vehicle physics. No Mario cart bumber car sliding on full throttle around corners.

 

They like that this puts an certain element of difference in handling the units and more immersion really to steer such an vehicle. Might it be Air (Fighter to Bomber) or Ground (M3A1 Stuart to KTH)

 

And all Gaijin ever claimed is that they model the units as realistic as possible. As even they are aware that it is still only a Videogame that can never be 100% realistic.

There is nowhere on all the WT websites the claim that Bullets, shells, Bombs, Torpedoes etc.pp. are modeled realistically. 

That all game mechanics are based on realism or anything else out the units themself.

 

Everyone working in the industry, may it as Developer, designer, Tester, Advising staff, or such knows that certain realism breaking changes need to be done in any game (if it isn't promoted as hardcore Sim) to keep an nice gameplay alive.

And this is a reasonably nice philosophy, but the performance of ordinance really ought to get nailed down already.

 

Honestly it needs to be re-buffed and CAS spawn costs need to go way up. Not buffed quite as much as they were 1.69, but buffed up to actual historical levels and having large blast radii. Then buff all SPAAG via lead markers, lower clean fighter spawn costs, and give planes more stuff to do so the overall number of complaints from tankers about being bombed don’t skyrocket again.

 

And, when CAS gets fixed, Germany and Japan desperately need a greater variety of CAS options. Germany, for instance, had an entire subclass of rocket-assisted bombs in all the main sizes that SC type bombs had. There was also another bomb subclass that had a lot more explosive filling than standard SC bombs with a thinner casing - basically what the Wellington/Lancaster’s 4000lb Cookie bomb did. Japan is missing multiple types of rocket bombs and due to scarce sources, the best rockets Japanese fighters get got ninja-nerfed from 80mm pen to 62mm without anyone seeming to notice.

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I genuinely hope the lead indicator goes away. It actually throws off my shots because I always watch the tracers to home in my shots and the line makes it harder to follow the tracers. I'd much rather have the ability to just lock onto and track the target by itself.

 

Maybe those who like arcade find it useful, I find it just makes things worse. 

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20 minutes ago, OldDeadMan said:

I genuinely hope the lead indicator goes away. It actually throws off my shots because I always watch the tracers to home in my shots and the line makes it harder to follow the tracers. I'd much rather have the ability to just lock onto and track the target by itself.

 

Maybe those who like arcade find it useful, I find it just makes things worse. 

Well that is why there is a menu option to turn it off. But for the bulk of players it helps you get a feel for the lead, then you use the tracers to fine-tune your aim. 

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2 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

And this is a reasonably nice philosophy, but the performance of ordinance really ought to get nailed down already.

 

Honestly it needs to be re-buffed and CAS spawn costs need to go way up. Not buffed quite as much as they were 1.69, but buffed up to actual historical levels and having large blast radii. Then buff all SPAAG via lead markers, lower clean fighter spawn costs, and give planes more stuff to do so the overall number of complaints from tankers about being bombed don’t skyrocket again.

 

And, when CAS gets fixed, Germany and Japan desperately need a greater variety of CAS options. Germany, for instance, had an entire subclass of rocket-assisted bombs in all the main sizes that SC type bombs had. There was also another bomb subclass that had a lot more explosive filling than standard SC bombs with a thinner casing - basically what the Wellington/Lancaster’s 4000lb Cookie bomb did. Japan is missing multiple types of rocket bombs and due to scarce sources, the best rockets Japanese fighters get got ninja-nerfed from 80mm pen to 62mm without anyone seeming to notice.

 

I personally feel raising CAS spawn costs up will just lessen the frequency of CAS; however, still leave all the issues associated with it untouched.   It will still be frustrating, cheesy, and those new lower fighters will just be straffing tanks and being annoying until CAS shows up.

 

I personally feel that the CAS costs as they are now are fine.  The issues are the disparity in Spawn point earnings, asymmetrical introduction, Nation imbalances, and inadequate default counters. 

 

I'm amazed they let in strategic ordinances into a CAS game mode..    Why they didn't limit bomb sizes to realistic CAS loads is beyond me and would have drastically helped with Nation imbalances.    It's ridiculous that 1,000lb+ bombs are regularly being dropped for close air support in this game and is the whole reason that the bombs were nerfed in the first place.    Of course there are balance issues with that,  they shouldn't even be an option.

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16 hours ago, NO_DRAGON said:

Mechanics changed yes, but that was due the change of units and adaption of more units.

So, the Developers needed to change mechanics to keep the playfield leveled.

No, some changes were made to accommodate soviet players (HESH nerf and MM changes), other changes like increasing RNG levels and the lead indicators to me just prove that they are attempting to ease things thinking they can attract more people, but as I said before they will obtain the opposite. 

 

16 hours ago, NO_DRAGON said:

Fact is all the surveys Gaijin did, show rather that most coming to RB cause of the more realistic behaviour of the vehicle physics. No Mario cart bumber car sliding on full throttle around corners.

 

So if through surveys most people want markers over enemy tanks in RB is ok with you? I think not and I won't certainly waste anymore of my time playing this game if they ever come back becuase "most players" want them. If an RB players wants those features then he is not a real RB player but probably an undercover arcade one. People play and enjoy RB even because it's challenging other than the better physics and mechanics. When balancing RB GF you must take that into consideration.

 

16 hours ago, NO_DRAGON said:

And all Gaijin ever claimed is that they model the units as realistic as possible. As even they are aware that it is still only a Videogame that can never be 100% realistic.

There is nowhere on all the WT websites the claim that Bullets, shells, Bombs, Torpedoes etc.pp. are modeled realistically. 

That all game mechanics are based on realism or anything else out the units themself.

You fail to see my initial point. I wasn't criticising the realism of the game but the way they are making it less difficult and reducing the skill levels needed to achieve good results thinking they will attract more players (which is a wrong theory imo). I never came here expecting a 100% realistically accurate game as I knew that was almost impossible to achieve, but I certainly expected a more balanced game in some aspects.

 

3 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

And, when CAS gets fixed

If you think it's broken it doesn't mean the others agree to it. If you think it needs fiixing that is your opinion and you cannot know for sure that it will get "fixed". I doubt their intentions are to reverse the changes made to rockets as we all remember how much havok they created in the community and for them to take such drastic actions it probably proves how badly things were going. I'm pretty sure GF needs a lot more attention than fixing planes atm as there are already critical balance issues like MM, nerfed ammo, wrong armor models, undertiered vehicles and many more which need to be addressed as they are a main cause of frustration to players. Prioritising on planes (which would need a lot of changes as they interact in a totally unrealistic way with tanks) will just be a mistake as a GF mode which is unbalanced and unfun for tanks has no reason to exist in the first place. 

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13 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Early German jets are simply at home in Ground Forces

Really how come I killed an Me262 in a Ki-100 and a Mig 15 with a Hurricane Mk IV might i add this was before they implemented the arcade style lazy aim for fast firing AA

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18 hours ago, NO_DRAGON said:

Gaijin is rather in the market of providing an MMO game that gets a broad spectrum of players and not an Hardcore online Sim ala Air Warrior.

did you cut your teeth on air warrior?  it was an MMO, but I would not call it a 'sim' - the flight model (with a joystick/realistic controls in RB) is a fair bit more challenging than the simplified physics model we enjoyed back in the mid 90's with AirWarrior.  

 

14 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Oooooh, okay now I understand what you’re trying to say. So I guess we both agree the ordinance nerf(s) have been very stupid ideas?

now we're on the same page.  thanks for hanging with me until I could get my point across.

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3 hours ago, Sidiros said:

 

I personally feel raising CAS spawn costs up will just lessen the frequency of CAS; however, still leave all the issues associated with it untouched.   It will still be frustrating, cheesy, and those new lower fighters will just be straffing tanks and being annoying until CAS shows up.

 

I personally feel that the CAS costs as they are now are fine.  The issues are the disparity in Spawn point earnings, asymmetrical introduction, Nation imbalances, and inadequate default counters. 

 

I'm amazed they let in strategic ordinances into a CAS game mode..    Why they didn't limit bomb sizes to realistic CAS loads is beyond me and would have drastically helped with Nation imbalances.    It's ridiculous that 1,000lb+ bombs are regularly being dropped for close air support in this game and is the whole reason that the bombs were nerfed in the first place.    Of course there are balance issues with that,  they shouldn't even be an option.

You need to raise spawn costs of CAS, re-buff all ordinance, and massively lower spawn cost of & buff its’ counters, SPAAG and fighters.

 

Fighters need to be able to be first-spawn vehicles if desired. SPAAG needs to be extremely effective so that people who only play tanks have some kind of effective defense when planes don’t play right into their hands by flying straight at them, this is why lead indicators are needed on all SPAAG. 

 

Then either model rockets and bombs correctly and add in the missing warheads for HVARs and RP-3s, or simply revert to the old rockets that oneshot things. Have scaling spawn costs based on amount of ordinance, not a fixed increase for carrying or not carrying it at all. Let’s go by roughly +50SP on initial spawn per volley of ordinance, be it bombs or rockets. Because unless the bomb is enormous, you’ll most likely only kill one tank with it. And the base spawn cost of CAS-loaded fighters would be 1000SP. Attackers and Tactical Bombers would be 750 to start, and Heavy Bombers would be 900SP. Meanwhile clean fighters would cost the same as heavy tanks to spawn in. Any fighter loading Armored Target belts on its guns would get the Attacker spawn cost.

 

I bet that with appropriately available counters and no ability to Cap & Fly, CAS would not have been screamed about nearly as much. The issue was spam of it and lack of similar planes for Germany, Russia, Japan, and Italy, not the weapons themselves the planes were using. Likewise it’s high time we saw the original October 2016 nerf of MK103 HVAP undone too, especially now that the Horton 229’s belts got nerfed.

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2 hours ago, LandKreuzer_89 said:

No, some changes were made to accommodate soviet players (HESH nerf and MM changes), other changes like increasing RNG levels and the lead indicators to me just prove that they are attempting to ease things thinking they can attract more people, but as I said before they will obtain the opposite. 

 

So if through surveys most people want markers over enemy tanks in RB is ok with you? I think not and I won't certainly waste anymore of my time playing this game if they ever come back becuase "most players" want them. If an RB players wants those features then he is not a real RB player but probably an undercover arcade one. People play and enjoy RB even because it's challenging other than the better physics and mechanics. When balancing RB GF you must take that into consideration.

 

You fail to see my initial point. I wasn't criticising the realism of the game but the way they are making it less difficult and reducing the skill levels needed to achieve good results thinking they will attract more players (which is a wrong theory imo). I never came here expecting a 100% realistically accurate game as I knew that was almost impossible to achieve, but I certainly expected a more balanced game in some aspects.

 

If you think it's broken it doesn't mean the others agree to it. If you think it needs fiixing that is your opinion and you cannot know for sure that it will get "fixed". I doubt their intentions are to reverse the changes made to rockets as we all remember how much havok they created in the community and for them to take such drastic actions it probably proves how badly things were going. I'm pretty sure GF needs a lot more attention than fixing planes atm as there are already critical balance issues like MM, nerfed ammo, wrong armor models, undertiered vehicles and many more which need to be addressed as they are a main cause of frustration to players. Prioritising on planes (which would need a lot of changes as they interact in a totally unrealistic way with tanks) will just be a mistake as a GF mode which is unbalanced and unfun for tanks has no reason to exist in the first place. 

What Ground Forces as a whole needs:

- Better map designs (specifically WIDER maps with spawn points close to the center of each side, it shouldn’t be that you spawn in a lightly armored unit, flank, and run into a wall of heavies also creeping along the side)

- Lower BR Spread or some new form of matchmaking

- Preferably a division between WWII/WWII-equivalent and Korean-War-Grade Technology

- More Game types for tanks besides sit in a circle and kill each other

- Many, Many more objectives to draw the attention of planes away from killing player tanks exclusively. Reconaissance, Destroying Enemy Artillery, Severing Supply Lines, Scouting Mechanics like what Light Tanks have, and destroying Supply Bases could all be useful objectives. 

- Useful objectives for Heavy Bombers to target, such as supply bases and knocking out airfields to prevent enemy planes from spawning.

- Ability for clean fighters to be first spawns so someone wanting to just play air support for tankers doesn’t have to rush cap and J out to do it. 

- SPAAG all having lead indicators so they are effective enough that the average player can advance with the team to protect against CAS.

- Ordinance to actually work against player tanks when the need arises to kill campers.

- All planes spawning on the AF or at very low altitude airspawns, these would be disabled when the AF is destroyed.

- And either larger teams or just a limited number of plane slots per team so entire teams cannot just spam CAS for eternity

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3 hours ago, SasquatchFox360 said:

Really how come I killed an Me262 in a Ki-100 and a Mig 15 with a Hurricane Mk IV might i add this was before they implemented the arcade style lazy aim for fast firing AA

The Me-262, Arado 234, and He-162 all bleed speed like crazy in maneuvers. If played too aggressively then a Japanese prop built to handle higher speeds can catch them.

 

How you killed a MiG-15 in a Hurricane though, either his engine was already damaged and he maneuvered several times or he just straight-up turned on the deck way too much. There are a lot of stupid jet pilots. I fly my early German jets like the P-51D-30: long sweeping passes, not much maneuvering, always having the altitude advantage where possible, avoiding prolonged maneuvering fights, etc all that happy jazz.

2 hours ago, StankFaust said:

now we're on the same page.  thanks for hanging with me until I could get my point across.

I always prefer to find some sort of common understanding where it’s possible to find one.

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46 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

You need to raise spawn costs of CAS, re-buff all ordinance, and massively lower spawn cost of & buff its’ counters, SPAAG and fighters.

 

Fighters need to be able to be first-spawn vehicles if desired. SPAAG needs to be extremely effective so that people who only play tanks have some kind of effective defense when planes don’t play right into their hands by flying straight at them, this is why lead indicators are needed on all SPAAG. 

 

Then either model rockets and bombs correctly and add in the missing warheads for HVARs and RP-3s, or simply revert to the old rockets that oneshot things. Have scaling spawn costs based on amount of ordinance, not a fixed increase for carrying or not carrying it at all. Let’s go by roughly +50SP on initial spawn per volley of ordinance, be it bombs or rockets. Because unless the bomb is enormous, you’ll most likely only kill one tank with it. And the base spawn cost of CAS-loaded fighters would be 1000SP. Attackers and Tactical Bombers would be 750 to start, and Heavy Bombers would be 900SP. Meanwhile clean fighters would cost the same as heavy tanks to spawn in. Any fighter loading Armored Target belts on its guns would get the Attacker spawn cost.

 

I bet that with appropriately available counters and no ability to Cap & Fly, CAS would not have been screamed about nearly as much. The issue was spam of it and lack of similar planes for Germany, Russia, Japan, and Italy, not the weapons themselves the planes were using. Likewise it’s high time we saw the original October 2016 nerf of MK103 HVAP undone too, especially now that the Horton 229’s belts got nerfed.

 

Just out of curiosity,  do you play everything in Ground RB?    I think you do.

 

When playing everything do you think that would be a good dynamic with CAS being higher spawn costs and Clean fighters being lower?     If you were to play as a Fighter right off the bat under those rules (using up all of your spawn points in the process:)   what would you be doing while you wait for those higher costing CAS to show up?      I'm for lower Fighter costs mind you; however, I think CAS costs are also good where they are or should be lower.    I honestly would like to see a fixed point allotment for RB though and do away with earnings in general.      The main issue I see is that they are just not consistently present to create a good dynamic with.

 

I can tell you that the times I played the P-38 (favorite all time Aircraft) and was hunting CAS; most of the time I was circling the AIr spawn point waiting for CAS to show up and it sucked.

 

I personally think SPAA are fine as they are a low cost counter (although not that powerful in average hands.)    It's the fact that you have nothing to do until CAS shows up that's a pretty substantial issue as they are not ready when Air shows up.    You're stuck just waiting around; hoping a target spawns.     SPAA players would be much better and effective if they had targets early on.    Normally they're only 150pts to spawn as they are typically lower BR than the rest of player's lineups.

 

Even without Cap-n-fly.   As soon as someone had enough points to spawn one,  SPAA wouldn't be ready (as they're harder to get),  Fighters/SPAA wouldn't be ready and that player that went out of his way to find a good position would be Frustrated when a 2,000lb bomb came down on his head.

 

Right now I can pretty much kill anything I want with US planes sporting 1,000lbers or better.     I get 4 Aircraft spawns if I want (2 Fighter bombers and 2 Attacker/Bombers)  and can pretty much chain spawn them once you get rolling due to the much higher earnings..     I can't see them unnerfing bombs now with Strategic ordinance in the game; especially, now that they've trained pilots to be better at pinpoint attacks.

 

Heck, just nerfing Aircraft spawn point earnings (to be inline with tanks) and combining Bomber/Fighter categories (to stop the abuse of two different spawn point doublings to pull from) would help a lot.     If they did any simple fix to test the waters;  that would be the one to pursue as it seems obviously broken.

 

 

edit- I also think bomb splash now is good; however, it shouldn't require strategic ordinance to obtain it.   I think 1,000lb bomb splash as is currently should be 500lbers and limiting ordinance to that bomb size (and increasing the splash to match current 1,000lbers) would help all nations as it would open up way more aircraft to utilize.    With the way it is now;  traditional CAS aircraft is pretty much garbage due to the balancing around those Strategic bomb sizes.

Edited by Sidiros
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I'm always amazed at the package deals that get laid on the table when CAS gets mentioned. Am I generally alone in believing the 3 modes AB, RB, SB, are generally pretty good as they are?  Sure a few things could use tweaks, but save for ordnance not being consistent, by and large, I'm happy. 

Edited by OldDeadMan
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Just now, OldDeadMan said:

I'm always amazed at the package deals that get laid on the table when CAS gets mentioned. Am I generally alone in believing the 3 modes AB, RB, SB, are generally pretty good as they are?  Sure a few things could use tweaks, but save for ordnance nor being consistent, by and large, I'm happy. 

 

Playing Allies I think it's good as GE, RU, JP CAS is pretty much garbage in RB Ground.     :D

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  • _Catweazle_63 changed the title to Close Air Support in Ground RB: Updated Version Post-1.71
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