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Close Air Support in Ground RB: Updated Version Post-1.71


On 4/7/2018 at 7:03 AM, MattS93 said:

Attacking hard targets from the air has until very recently with smart munitions been a high-volume/low yield activity. This should be reflected in game.

A little wobble in the mouse aim would help this substantially.  you're operating a weapons platform that is overly buffed simply due to the mode you are using it in.  'FLY' with a joystick / realisitc controls and these issues go away.  play the game in simple mode and it's well, simple.

 

On 4/8/2018 at 7:20 AM, MH4UAstragon said:

This is why we need lead markers to make these somewhat worthwhile in the anti-air role

god no

arcade already exists.  learning lead is not difficult, it's a skill that takes a little time and practice, same as 'flying' the plane as opposed to point and click.

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1 hour ago, DaffanZ said:

If you play Germany or Japan you will be revenge bomb or rocketed all the time, it's ridiculous. Kill an AMX-50 with type 61 WHILE UNDER COVER of a BUILDING on the winter Stalingrad map, 20 seconds later a plane shows up and kills me in one pass with rockets. What's the counter? Drive forwards out into B and be killed by a tank or try slow reverse backwards? I'm already under cover of a building... (So NOT EXPOSED) thnx Mouse aim + Instructor for godlike plane accuracy a 5yr old child could utilize.

I play japan a lot and the one thing i try to avoid is crashing or taking damage in a plane its costly

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2 hours ago, KH_Alan said:

HE blast doesn't care about armor plate angle. Its absolutely the same if HE blast hits angled armor plate or flat one.

Last I checked HE blasts outwardly in a sphere so it shouldn’t care about angle much, if at all. Plus, the last thing angled armor needs is a buff, unless at the same time you remove the angled armor modifier on HESH and fix all APDS slope modifiers.

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4 minutes ago, StankFaust said:

god no

arcade already exists.  learning lead is not difficult, it's a skill that takes a little time and practice, same as 'flying' the plane as opposed to point and click.

Sorry, but if the average player is to stop whining about CAS it must be just as easy for SPAAG to kill CAS (that isn’t being stupid enough to headon the SPAAG) as it often is for CAS to kill the SPAAG/Tank.

 

World War Mode has lead markers. Top tier AA have lead markers. It’s only a matter of time before all other AA ger lead markers.

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2 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

World War Mode has lead markers. Top tier AA have lead markers. It’s only a matter of time before all other AA ger lead markers.

 

...and then it'll only be a matter of time before nametags and redboxes return after that too.

 

RB does not need anymore coddling measures--it has too many already.

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38 minutes ago, warrior412 said:

 

Nobody forces anyone to do that.

 

However, those teams who leave themselves defenseless are not worthy of any sympathy.

 

 

At this point man, I'm just happy when some clown doesn't spawn into a 4.0+ match driving that first French premium tank. Happened to me yesterday on Poland and I damn near pushed him into the lake.

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4 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Slow-firing AA especially need the lead markers added to them. The M19, M42, So-Ki, Ta-Se, Type 94, ZSU-37, ZUT-37, German 37 Flak Truck, Crusader Mk.1 AA French Bofors Truck, and ZSU-57-2 all need said indicators. 

I dont agree with the Ta-Se or Type 94 getting lead indicator as they dont really face fast movers

they do well at their br if the player knows what they are doing and their tactics are right

also i dont agree with ZSU-57-2 cause it mainly gets used for taking out tanks which it already does well at also does ok with planes.

The 8.8cm Flak 37 gets used more for taking out tanks as it can do it as well i mostly mean vehicles that can 

only do one sole purpose and nothing else also the flak 88 wouldn't do well as aa considering the mechanics for proximity fuses aint the best ingame

Edited by SasquatchFox360

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12 minutes ago, MattS93 said:

 

At this point man, I'm just happy when some clown doesn't spawn into a 4.0+ match driving that first French premium tank. Happened to me yesterday on Poland and I damn near pushed him into the lake.

 

I have only just started the French tank tree, but in some matches the tanks did better as SPAAs. (Their guns are pretty terrible.) 

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9 minutes ago, SasquatchFox360 said:

I dont agree with the Ta-Se or Type 94 getting lead indicator as they dont really face fast movers

they do well at their br if the player knows what they are doing and their tactics are right

also i dont agree with ZSU-57-2 cause it mainly gets used for taking out tanks which it already does well at also does ok with planes.

The 8.8cm Flak 37 gets used more for taking out tanks as it can do it as well i mostly mean vehicles that can 

only do one sole purpose and nothing else also the flak 88 wouldn't do well as aa considering the mechanics for proximity fuses aint the best ingame

Then take your SPAAG to Simulator where pilots lack 3D view so that it’s a more balanced playing field.

 

As long as planes have 3D view and Mouse Aim, SPAAG need lead indicators for balance reasons. Plain and simple. 

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22 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Sorry, but if the average player is to stop whining about CAS it must be just as easy for SPAAG to kill CAS (that isn’t being stupid enough to headon the SPAAG) as it often is for CAS to kill the SPAAG/Tank.

 

World War Mode has lead markers. Top tier AA have lead markers. It’s only a matter of time before all other AA ger lead markers.

 

Okay, thanks for letting me know not to bother playing world war mode. 

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1 minute ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Then take your SPAAG to Simulator where pilots lack 3D view so that it’s a more balanced playing field.

 

As long as planes have 3D view and Mouse Aim, SPAAG need lead indicators for balance reasons. Plain and simple. 

yh in simulator i agree but have you used a type 94 in SIM its the first thing that dies from friendly fire i kid you not

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25 minutes ago, StankFaust said:

i dont care about an average player whining.  I dont think the game should pander to them and I question your rationale that a milk truck should have parity with a fighter/attack plane.  You smokin better stuff than I got.

And the average player is what mainly funds the game, so they have to pander to their desires. It’s easy to drive and aim most tanks at other tanks, it should be just as easy for SPAAG to shoot down planes that aren’t diving straight at said SPAAG.

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3 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

As long as planes have 3D view and Mouse Aim,

this is a problem because the control is too easy for the mode (realistic)

 

3 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

SPAAG need lead indicators for balance reasons.

and this would be another problem, making the control input too easy for the mode...

 

adding layer to an already existing problem wont make the mode better, it will just make it more arcade than it already is.

 

The issue, the ROOT if you will, is the original problem you identified... 'flying' is WAY too easy...

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yh SPAAG die alot from planes but whenever i play Russian aa rarely apear its mostly french the thing is the planes i die the most from are allies planes rarely german ones or russian

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3 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

It’s easy to drive and aim most tanks at other tanks, it should be just as easy for SPAAG to shoot down planes that aren’t diving straight at said SPAAG.

your logic has fled you.  Shooting something moving out of the air is orders of magnitude harder than shooting something stationary on the ground.  it might be that arcade mode is a better fit for you, it's tough to swallow that someone of your experience is proposing to make RB better by making it easier...  

 

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7 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

As long as planes have 3D view and Mouse Aim, SPAAG need lead indicators for balance reasons. Plain and simple. 

That's why Planes in WT cannot have weapons that are too strong as they are simply too easy to use and getting kills with them would be a a complete joke (like it was with rockets pre.1.71). Unless drastic changes are made to the way they interact in GF (giving cockpit view only for example) they will always be too easy to use and killing tanks will never be too much of a challenge. 

 

SPAAs on the other hand, do not need aim reticles in RB, what they need is proper aiming reticles specifically made to shoot down planes and not ground vehicles. Once SPAAs will be able to shoot down enemy planes from longer distances (with skill and not cheats like lead indicators) without having to wait for them to be dumb enough and fly right over your head or pray to RNG then SPAAS will finally be competitive and will not need any arcade indicators but will only rely on the player skill. This is what someone expects from a realistic game, where skill matters more than anything else.

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On a side note to this discussion...

 

Public Service Announcement: BTR 152 is an "SPAA for people who like SPAA." First match in it I rekt 3 enemy planes and one friendly (oops). I was like Audie Murphy in that movie just gunning down Germans LOL. 

 

Going to bring it in all my USSR lineups for when I want to get serious about planes and save the milk trucks and 37mm for LOLroasting ground targets when I don't have enough points for a tank.

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2 minutes ago, StankFaust said:

and this would be another problem, making the control input too easy for the mode...

 

adding layer to an already existing problem wont make the mode better, it will just make it more arcade than it already is.

 

The issue, the ROOT if you will, is the original problem you identified... 'flying' is WAY too easy...

And I’m proposing an extension to an already existing ingame feature because no matter how much a lot of us may want it, mouse aim likely won’t be seeing major changes or nerfs. It is a non-starter to try and nerf planes any further.

3 minutes ago, StankFaust said:

your logic has fled you.  Shooting something moving out of the air is orders of magnitude harder than shooting something stationary on the ground.  it might be that arcade mode is a better fit for you, it's tough to swallow that someone of your experience is proposing to make RB better by making it easier...  

Nope, my logic is very clear on this issue.

- People more often than not use SPAAG as cap rushers or ersatz TDs than to reliably kill planes.

- SPAAG usually have dirt-cheap repair bills showcasing their relative ineffectiveness, the Ostwind is heralded as one of the best SPAAG yet it costs around 1k SL to repair fully spaded. Also on Thunderskill, despite again being one of the best SPAAG, it just barely manages a 1:1 combined Air and Ground KD.

- Tank-only players will continue complaining if they don’t have an effective countermeasure, and their screaming was what got CAS over-nerfed in the first place. Honestly, I’m sick to death of their complaining, and I know of nothing else that will pacify them.

3 minutes ago, LandKreuzer_89 said:

That's why Planes in WT cannot have weapons that are too strong as they are simply too easy to use and getting kills with them would be a a complete joke (like it was with rockets pre.1.71). Unless drastic changes are made to the way they interact in GF (giving cockpit view only for example) they will always be too easy to use and killing tanks will never be too much of a challenge. 

 

SPAAs on the other hand, do not need aim reticles in RB, what they need is proper aiming reticles specifically made to shoot down planes and not ground vehicles. Once SPAAs will be able to shoot down enemy planes from longer distances (with skill and not cheats like lead indicators) without having to wait for them to be dumb enough and fly right over your head or pray to RNG then SPAAS will finally be competitive and will not need any arcade indicators but will only rely on the player skill. This is what someone expects from a realistic game, where skill matters more than anything else.

Again, I’m proposing extension of features already ingame, not proposing something often seen as unreasonable.

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People cried foul about SPAAG being ineffective in high tiers, and called for buffs.

 

Gaijin responded by buffing SPAAG in the easiest way possible to them: lead indicators. 

 

THIS is why I’m proposing a simple extension of what’s already here for lower tier SPAAG, just having it render at a shorter max range.

 

Having realistic SPAAG sights will mostly help the Sim crowd, and expecting any nerfs to mouse aim short of addressing prophanging is a fool’s game. 

 

You guys have valid opinions on the SPAA vs CAS argument, but you’re not picking your battles wisely. I’m arguing for a point that has actual chance of being implemented, not a fool’s hope.

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13 minutes ago, MattS93 said:

On a side note to this discussion...

 

Public Service Announcement: BTR 152 is an "SPAA for people who like SPAA." First match in it I rekt 3 enemy planes and one friendly (oops). I was like Audie Murphy in that movie just gunning down Germans LOL. 

 

Going to bring it in all my USSR lineups for when I want to get serious about planes and save the milk trucks and 37mm for LOLroasting ground targets when I don't have enough points for a tank.

 

The BTR-152 is a good SPAA, but you better have a donkey or something to drag you around--it has awful mobility over uneven terrain.

 

I honestly think I prefer the ZIS-43 because of that.

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7 minutes ago, warrior412 said:

 

The BTR-152 is a good SPAA, but you better have a donkey or something to drag you around--it has awful mobility over uneven terrain.

 

I honestly think I prefer the ZIS-43 because of that.

I’ve been shot down sometimes by BTR-152s in low rank, but haven’t bothered researching or using the thing because of its fraility.

 

With maps as insanely cluttered as they are with trees and BUSHES and often rather tall buildings, plus 1.77’s graphical update making plane dots much harder to spot even on lower graphics, SPAAG really need the lead indicators at all ranks.

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34 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

It is a non-starter to try and nerf planes any further.

any further than what?  they arent nerfed at all.  Just because you've abdicated the fight doesn't mean Im going to.

 

34 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

- People more often than not use SPAAG as cap rushers or ersatz TDs than to reliably kill planes.

I reliably kill planes in my spaa's and I never use them for rushing a cap.

 

34 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

the Ostwind... despite again being one of the best SPAAG, it just barely manages a 1:1 combined Air and Ground KD.

this is where your logic goes bye bye.  an spaa should not, ever, have parity with an attack aircraft.  1:3 k/d is pretty excellent in an spaa. 

 

28 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

I’m arguing for a point that has actual chance of being implemented, not a fool’s hope.

just because it's easy to implement doesnt mean it should be implemented.  it would be another negative on RB.  Mouse aim doesn't need to go away, it just needs to be a little harder to use in realistic.  

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41 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Gaijin responded by buffing SPAAG in the easiest way possible to them: lead indicators. 

 

THIS is why I’m proposing a simple extension of what’s already here for lower tier SPAAG, just having it render at a shorter max range.

 

Having realistic SPAAG sights will mostly help the Sim crowd, and expecting any nerfs to mouse aim short of addressing prophanging is a fool’s game.

Just because GJ implemented a feature it doesn't automatically mean it will work properly. Many things have been senselessly implemented in the past and failed miserably and needed to be fixed as they weren't working as expected. I'm pretty sure this whole arcadish radar indicator is just another way of dumbing things down and slowly turning RB into a different and harder AB, which to me seems to be their undeclared objective thinking it will attract more players. As I said the only solution to this is give SPAAs a better chance against planes by giving them proper aiming reticles which will allow them to shoot down planes much easier compared to now but will still require sufficient skill to master, unlike adding indicators which pretty much removes all skill and all fun into shotting down a plane as it's the computer doing the hard work for you, this will work very well in both sim and Rb and they don't have to necessarily be 100% realistic but rather 100% efficient vs planes. Indicators and arcade features is exactly what a competitive and skill based game doesn't need and I hope they realize that soon enough.   

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7 minutes ago, LandKreuzer_89 said:

Just because GJ implemented a feature it doesn't automatically mean it will work properly. Many things have been senselessly implemented in the past and failed miserably and needed to be fixed as they weren't working as expected. I'm pretty sure this whole arcadish radar indicator is just another way of dumbing things down and slowly turning RB into a different and harder AB, which to me seems to be their undeclared objective thinking it will attract more players. As I said the only solution to this is give SPAAs a better chance against planes by giving them proper aiming reticles which will allow them to shoot down planes much easier compared to now but will still require sufficient skill to master, unlike adding indicators which pretty much removes all skill and all fun into shotting down a plane as it's the computer doing the hard work for you, this will work very well in both sim and Rb and they don't have to necessarily be 100% realistic but rather 100% efficient vs planes. Indicators and arcade features is exactly what a competitive and skill based game doesn't need and I hope they realize that soon enough.   

 

You'll probably be surprised, but this is something I think is okay.

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10 minutes ago, LandKreuzer_89 said:

 Indicators and arcade features is exactly what a competitive and skill based game doesn't need and I hope they realize that soon enough.   

 

And know please provide a source where Gaijin is claiming that Wt is nothing else than an competitive and skill based game.

 

They never said so and they need to make economic decisions.

If you do not like those decisions, bad luck. If it keeps the casual money-bringing game survival guaranteeing players coming into the game and holds em I am OK with it.

 

This game is not the property of the most skilled players, it is a game made to attract a broad base of gamers that want to play an FtP game which means they even so need lots of players that are willed  

yo sink here and there some money into it to keep it FtP.

That is the same reason we have other casual player benefiting perks. As ULQ, daily boosters etc. pp.

 

And on the end the Dev's will do what is needed to make sure those casual players that are the majority are happy.

Simple as that.

Edited by NO_DRAGON
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