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Close Air Support in Ground RB: Updated Version Post-1.71


On 6/4/2018 at 7:11 PM, MH4UAstragon said:

- Bomb kill radii need to be increased somewhat (I’d guestimate that having 500kg/1000lb bombs having kill radii even half as large as the nuclear “proton torpedoes” would be fine. 2000lb/1000kg should have bigger kill radii, and larger size bombs should honestly be just as destructive as the “proton torpedoes” were.)

Really? Seriously you should stop opening such threads as nothing good will ever come out them if these are your proposals of having a more balanced game were planes have a smaller impact on tanks gameplay. This combined with the rocket buff would pretty much render all the latest necessary changes/nerfs made to CAS useless and it would start over again.    

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40 minutes ago, LandKreuzer_89 said:

Really? Seriously you should stop opening such threads as nothing good will ever come out them if these are your proposals of having a more balanced game were planes have a smaller impact on tanks gameplay. This combined with the rocket buff would pretty much render all the latest necessary changes/nerfs made to CAS useless and it would start over again.    

Except when combined with the other changes you would have:

- no spam of ordinance-laden planes at start of a match

- any ordinance-laden planes would only spawn after one side wins the air war several minutes into a typical match

- and SPAAG would actually remain a serious threat to enemy CAS with the lead indicator mechanics. Imagine Ostwind, Whirbelwind, and Coelian spam with the lead indicator. If a plane makes more than one pass they’ll get incinerated in the blink of an eye

- But CAS will actually be effective when it does appear and manage to get through defenses against it. 

- And there will be various other objectives for CAS to potentially go after that are less prickly targets than player tanks protected by buffed SPAAG: the enemy team artillery platoons, enemy supply convoys, enemy spawn defenses, and bombing targets.

 

So CAS will be useful to winning games but no longer will it only have player tanks or enemy planes as the thing it can destroy. The team will signal if a particular camping player needs to be eliminated, and when CAS actually gets past defenses it will reliably kill said camping players.

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47 minutes ago, LandKreuzer_89 said:

Really? Seriously you should stop opening such threads as nothing good will ever come out them if these are your proposals of having a more balanced game were planes have a smaller impact on tanks gameplay. This combined with the rocket buff would pretty much render all the latest necessary changes/nerfs made to CAS useless and it would start over again.    

 

Thankfully you are not a MOD and therefor have no might and due your bias I can see that this will keep so.

 

He has made quite good suggestions and at least kept trying to find a solution whereas others only extremely defending their own position without wanting any change that is not benefiting their own agenda.

 

I might not in all points agree with Astragon on proposed changes etc.pp. but I respect him for staying on the ball and at least trying.

 

More than can be said for your overall input at all.

 

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6 minutes ago, NO_DRAGON said:

 

Thankfully you are not a MOD and therefor have no might and due your bias I can see that this will keep so.

 

He has made quite good suggestions and at least kept trying to find a solution whereas others only extremely defending their own position without wanting any change that is not benefiting their own agenda.

 

I might not in all points agree with Astragon on proposed changes etc.pp. but I respect him for staying on the ball and at least trying.

 

More than can be said for your overall input at all.

 

Long story short:

- mechanisms should be in place so Cap & Fly is rendered impossible (raising spawn costs on typical Cap Rusher vehicles, massively raising spawn costs on CAS with multiple drops, lowering spawn costs of clean fighters)

- there should be multiple layers of CAS Defenses present in every match (friendly fighters, SPAAG that are actually accurate enough to hit some mouse-aim guy spastically jerking their plane around, and really high spawn costs for planes with more than one drop/salvo of ordinance)

- There should be a plethora of objectives for CAS to fulfill, bombing/rocketing player tanks would be just ONE objective and sometimes not even the most efficient objective to pursue.

- But when a team requests rooting out of a camper, CAS should work very well and very reliably. If this means HEAT and HESH rockets with actually great spalling, or bombs with actually large lethal radii from 1000lb/500kg and up, so be it.

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4 hours ago, DaffanZ said:

Is this your dumb idea that people should spawn SPAA first again?

 

The fact that you think it's an unwise move to spawn anti-aircraft defenses in then moan and groan about aircraft speaks for itself.

 

Aircraft are just pesky enough to make people whine, but not threatening enough to provoke actual countermoves.

 

It justs proves the threat has been exaggerated.

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2 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Long story short:

- mechanisms should be in place so Cap & Fly is rendered impossible (raising spawn costs on typical Cap Rusher vehicles, massively raising spawn costs on CAS with multiple drops, lowering spawn costs of clean fighters)

- there should be multiple layers of CAS Defenses present in every match (friendly fighters, SPAAG that are actually accurate enough to hit some mouse-aim guy spastically jerking their plane around, and really high spawn costs for planes with more than one drop/salvo of ordinance)

- There should be a plethora of objectives for CAS to fulfill, bombing/rocketing player tanks would be just ONE objective and sometimes not even the most efficient objective to pursue.

- But when a team requests rooting out of a camper, CAS should work very well and very reliably. If this means HEAT and HESH rockets with actually great spalling, or bombs with actually large lethal radii from 1000lb/500kg and up, so be it.

 

I agree on most of those. You know that.

As long as they prevent in an acceptable manner that GF matches become Air forces Matches I am in.

Maybe they should even so think about an max 4 planes at a time cap. To prevent those pesky moments we had in the past where basically one team on the ground fights against one team all in planes.

 

As that is not what the Devs want. They want an fun for the casual player environment.

 

Sadly that is by some forgotten and put aside as not relevant to them. 

They rather think everything needs to be ultra competitive, even if that would mean sinking player-numbers and on the end longer Que times.

They even try to convince the Devs that Que times get longer if the more long term daily players leave. Forgetting that those few that come here on a daily base are overshadowed by those masses that come here for the casual in-between game.

And as long as they only see their agenda without the casual gamer that is not an master in any vehicle, those will regardless of suggestions be against it.

As they have think Gaijin or the Devs have an obligation towards them to make the game the way they want.

 

I can see how certain suggested changes from you could make the battles an more pleasant experience for the casuals and that is all that counts on the end.

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Admittedly, warrior, I kinda agree with you on how CAS was overblown in effectiveness even during the peak of rocket spam. But I bet that not even half of the people complaining about it would have complained that strongly had German players done or had access to appropriate countermeasures more often:

1) SPAAG with lead indicators to easily shoot down planes as a tank-only player

2) People actually using the He-162 A-2, seriously in Ground Forces this plane has crazy advantages over usual CAS spam planes (P-47s, Typhoons, Tempests, Beercans, 1d Corsairs, etc) even when the jet is stock in every way except for ammo belts. If people used this instead of spamming low-midtier Bf-109s and Fw-190s to intercept people, they could beat P-47s in speed and simply outrun any dumb Spitfires/Yaks.

3) And if the Cap & Fly exploit got fixed pronto, a micropatch could have hiked plane spawn costs when people started complaining instead of having most of the playerbase scream for months on end about it.

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11 minutes ago, NO_DRAGON said:

I can see how certain suggested changes from you could make the battles an more pleasant experience for the casuals and that is all that counts on the end.

And the ones that would appeal to casual players would be:

- allowing spawning of fighters at match start would mean less cap rushers. Currently even I rush caps and then J out to spawn pure fighters when in completely hopeless situations (uptier and horrible map) on occasion.

- adding a plethora of targets for planes so planes don’t have to fly right into certain death of buffed lead-indicator SPAAG just to try and do something

- and buffing ordinance and AT guns on planes so both actually work reliably

 

Casuals want options and they want working weapons.

 

Being stuck in an inflexible situation is incredibly frustrating when you have no options except to just die.

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The solution is very simple: change SP reward for kills

 

ground-ground kills = same as now

air-air kills = same as now

ground-air kills = same as air-air kills (supports AA)

air-ground kills = same as ground-ground kills (discourages CAS)

 

Also the "tap" SP reward should be reduced... for those just flying around marking enemy tanks but being of no further use than just that. It should be 5 SP per hit, if not even less. Air-air hits should remain as they are.

 

Simple. No need for wonky and risky mechanics. You guys have to remember, by crying about how stuff is unfair, you'll ruin the very little "realism" this game has left. All those weird restrictions and whatnot will only make the experience more arcade-like. And I don't recall people in RB reacting positively to that. "Quality of life" changes ruin fairness and the realistic feeling. Some things were simply meant to counter other things, while at the same time being countered by something else; CAS is a good example of this. You sacrifice some SP to POTENTIALLY kill some enemies. If you fail, a whole bunch of SP goes to waste because planes are expensive. Not to mention that you can't hold any ground, especially when your armament runs out so you have to reload. And it's not like you're invincible up in the air - there's danger ranging all the way from AA to enemy aircraft, and even tank MGs/cannons. However for this to work, the SP rewards in planes has to be lowered, at least for ground kills. 

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3 minutes ago, LandKreuzer_89 said:

I don't see how making rockets and bombs more powerful will help balancing GF, the result you obtain with that is dumbing things even more in favor of pilots and ruin the fun for tank even more. If a plane will just have to spot you and randomly drop a bomb anywhere even at 50m away from a target and maybe even get multiple kills I don't see any future for this game. There are already many balance issues with ground vehicles themselves that adding even more problems like these would simply destroy the game.   

If they were made reliable but at the same time methods of spam were addressed, things would be fine. And you’re exxagerating how effective bombs should be. 

- 250kg/500lb would killl most tanks if dropped right on said tanks

- 500kg/1000lb would kill if dropped reasonably close to tanks, about a fifth of the range of the nuke torps.

- 1000kg/2000lb would kill if dropped fairly close to tanks, about a third of the range of the nuke torps.

- anything larger would kill if dropped anywhere near tanks, more or less like the nuke torpedoes.

 

Rockets were already described above how effective they should be, there is no arguing about how they actually should perform. Missing warheads and improper spalling for the types of warheads they should have available.

 

The issue of CAS is the ability to spam it. Not its power. It has been gotten backwards this entire time. CAS should be powerful but hard to obtain (you’d need at least 3 tank on tank or tank on air kills, or 2 kills + cap), while its counters should be considerably easier to obtain (spawning planes from start, spawning AA rather easily).

 

These changes would balance Combined Arms mode so that its more equal participation and overall usefulness of both tanks and planes. Planes would be an asset to all nations and also a serious threat to be dealt with like in reality. Wow tanks wouldn’t be “special snowflakes” anymore but players would adapt and live just fine.

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2 hours ago, warrior412 said:

 

The fact that you think it's an unwise move to spawn anti-aircraft defenses in then moan and groan about aircraft speaks for itself.

 

Aircraft are just pesky enough to make people whine, but not threatening enough to provoke actual countermoves.

 

It justs proves the threat has been exaggerated.

Because people don't want to be forced to play SPAA first. You know, they actually want to play the 99% of vehicles not pigeon holed into the 1%

Edited by DaffanZ
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2 hours ago, DaffanZ said:

Because people don't want to be forced to play SPAA first. You know, they actually want to play the 99% of vehicles not pigeon holed into the 1%

Well that is exactly why CAS Spam needs to be dealt with while the actual killing power of CAS needs to go up when it is able to be brought out.

3 hours ago, Rayback20 said:

The solution is very simple: change SP reward for kills

 

ground-ground kills = same as now

air-air kills = same as now

ground-air kills = same as air-air kills (supports AA)

air-ground kills = same as ground-ground kills (discourages CAS)

 

Also the "tap" SP reward should be reduced... for those just flying around marking enemy tanks but being of no further use than just that. It should be 5 SP per hit, if not even less. Air-air hits should remain as they are.

 

Simple. No need for wonky and risky mechanics. You guys have to remember, by crying about how stuff is unfair, you'll ruin the very little "realism" this game has left. All those weird restrictions and whatnot will only make the experience more arcade-like. And I don't recall people in RB reacting positively to that. "Quality of life" changes ruin fairness and the realistic feeling. Some things were simply meant to counter other things, while at the same time being countered by something else; CAS is a good example of this. You sacrifice some SP to POTENTIALLY kill some enemies. If you fail, a whole bunch of SP goes to waste because planes are expensive. Not to mention that you can't hold any ground, especially when your armament runs out so you have to reload. And it's not like you're invincible up in the air - there's danger ranging all the way from AA to enemy aircraft, and even tank MGs/cannons. However for this to work, the SP rewards in planes has to be lowered, at least for ground kills. 

Or raise SP gains from ground on ground and ground on air kills to the levels plane on ground and plane on plane kills get.

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On 07/04/2018 at 9:14 PM, MH4UAstragon said:

@NO_DRAGON made a rather interesting point in another recent topic: “Why don’t planes have the scouting ability that light tanks have?”

 

Recon was yet another thing planes did irl (some planes like the event Fw-189 and the Ar-234B-2 were specialized in this role) that planes cannot easily do ingame.

The main issue you'll have with this ability would be the maps are to small and matches don't last long enough for scouting to be worth it slow tanks with weak armour will struggle even more than they already do take the Japanese tech tree into account my victory rate is 30% at rank 4 tanks not out of choice but because CAS really takes a toll on Japanese tanks and anti air vehicles cause they struggle already as is

Edited by SasquatchFox360

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You want a good example of how difficult Japanese spas is well here's an example

 

Spawn into a match with a So-Ki or M42 duster 

Then wait for some planes to spawn by the time they spawn your team have already died and are now also in spaa's with better fire rates and survivability and you end up trying to get kills but you end up only getting assist or maybe hiting the guy once and him shooting you or fragging you and you end up going back to base with hardly any RP or SL paying for the vehicle that got destroyed and this happens constantly

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3 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Well that is exactly why CAS Spam needs to be dealt with while the actual killing power of CAS needs to go up when it is able to be brought out.

 

I disagree...IMO CAS does not need to be more powerful, at least in the 3.7 to 4.7 range where I spent a lot of time this weekend.

 

Got bombed or strafed to death plenty of times, even while trying hard to avoid it. Skilled pilots are still getting it done, the air was full of planes.

 

 

Edited by MattS93
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2 hours ago, SasquatchFox360 said:

You want a good example of how difficult Japanese spas is well here's an example

 

Spawn into a match with a So-Ki or M42 duster 

Then wait for some planes to spawn by the time they spawn your team have already died and are now also in spaa's with better fire rates and survivability and you end up trying to get kills but you end up only getting assist or maybe hiting the guy once and him shooting you or fragging you and you end up going back to base with hardly any RP or SL paying for the vehicle that got destroyed and this happens constantly

 

I haven't played Japan a lot, but I can not relate to the AAA problem of Japan.

 

 

5acaf405d9241_shot2018_04_0906_02_14.thu

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11 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

- 500kg/1000lb would kill if dropped reasonably close to tanks, about a fifth of the range of the nuke torps.

- 1000kg/2000lb would kill if dropped fairly close to tanks, about a third of the range of the nuke torps.

- anything larger would kill if dropped anywhere near tanks, more or less like the nuke torpedoes.

As much as this is true IRL it cannot be applied in game before HE blast is fixed.

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7 hours ago, MattS93 said:

 

I disagree...IMO CAS does not need to be more powerful, at least in the 3.7 to 4.7 range where I spent a lot of time this weekend.

 

Got bombed or strafed to death plenty of times, even while trying hard to avoid it. Skilled pilots are still getting it done, the air was full of planes.

 

 

Then this means tank player countermeasures need to be made more useful. This is why all lower-level SPAAG need lead markers as well. 

 

Raising spawn costs on both ordinance-laden planes and things used to typically cap rush will knock out early game spam of CAS that was the real problem. 

 

What I’m hoping to eventually see is less ability to spam out planes repeatedly but having their weaponry be much more effective than now. And with SPAAG lead indicators and significantly cheaper pure fighter spawn costs, if the skies are even slightly contested then it will be hard to play CAS and survive, as it should be. But your weapons will actually work and be reliable, not be soaked by stupid things.

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8 hours ago, SasquatchFox360 said:

You want a good example of how difficult Japanese spas is well here's an example

 

Spawn into a match with a So-Ki or M42 duster 

Then wait for some planes to spawn by the time they spawn your team have already died and are now also in spaa's with better fire rates and survivability and you end up trying to get kills but you end up only getting assist or maybe hiting the guy once and him shooting you or fragging you and you end up going back to base with hardly any RP or SL paying for the vehicle that got destroyed and this happens constantly

Slow-firing AA especially need the lead markers added to them. The M19, M42, So-Ki, Ta-Se, Type 94, ZSU-37, ZUT-37, German 37 Flak Truck, Crusader Mk.1 AA French Bofors Truck, and ZSU-57-2 all need said indicators. 

 

And then fast-firing AA with lead indicators will become so good you may start hearing pilots cuss you out. But if it’s just as easy for CAS to blip tanks out of existence, then balance is achieved.

 

The real problem with CAS was never its power. It was the ease of obtaining and spamming it. 

 

People whined about rockets and to a lesser degree bombs, Gaijin responded by nerfing both into the ground, and the real problems of ability to spam CAS and spawn it very early in a match were never fixed. 

2 hours ago, KH_Alan said:

As much as this is true IRL it cannot be applied in game before HE blast is fixed.

I don’t follow exactly what you’re trying to say here. Bombs need to stop falling through the dirt and getting soaked up by stupid tiny objects like bushes/trees/the water surface under the map. Not sure if you’re referring to anything else though.

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Easy solution, just have planes spawn on the airfield,  the most irritating feature of aircraft in battles is the revenge attack, now to seek revenge is fine, a player is beaten in their tank by an opponents superior tactics so they resort to using aircraft to nullify the superior tactics, no problem with that(I am being diplomatic), but it should come at a cost of time spent getting to the battle, if they seek revenge using a tank, they have to drive clear across the map to find their nemesis, this could on the bigger maps take a few minutes, certainly not 45 seconds!

Edited by *thedeputy99

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1 minute ago, *thedeputy99 said:

Easy solution, just have planes spawn on the airfield,  the most irritating feature of aircraft in battles is the revenge attack, now to seek revenge is fine, a player is beaten in their tank by an opponents superior tactics so they resort to using aircraft to nullify the superior tactics, no problem with that, but it should come at a cost of time spent getting to the battle, if they seek revenge using a tank, they have to drive clear across the map to find their nemesis, this could on the bigger maps take a few minutes, certainly not 45 seconds!

And I fully agree with this. 

 

- Planes should not be able to revenge-kill someone who outsmarted them so easily, I’d actually prefer if there was no kill cam at all but that’s just me I guess

- Planes should take considerable effort to spawn in in the first place

- Plane weapons should actually work reliably against armor when they do manage to be spawned in and get by the enemy fighters & SPAAG.

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1 hour ago, MH4UAstragon said:

I don’t follow exactly what you’re trying to say here. Bombs need to stop falling through the dirt and getting soaked up by stupid tiny objects like bushes/trees/the water surface under the map. Not sure if you’re referring to anything else though.

HE blast doesn't care about armor plate angle. Its absolutely the same if HE blast hits angled armor plate or flat one.

Edited by KH_Alan
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On 08/04/2018 at 5:14 AM, MH4UAstragon said:

@NO_DRAGON made a rather interesting point in another recent topic: “Why don’t planes have the scouting ability that light tanks have?”

 

Recon was yet another thing planes did irl (some planes like the event Fw-189 and the Ar-234B-2 were specialized in this role) that planes cannot easily do ingame.

Bcuz with 3rd person the last thing we need is planes scouting every tank on the map from space.

 

2 hours ago, *thedeputy99 said:

Easy solution, just have planes spawn on the airfield,  the most irritating feature of aircraft in battles is the revenge attack, now to seek revenge is fine, a player is beaten in their tank by an opponents superior tactics so they resort to using aircraft to nullify the superior tactics, no problem with that(I am being diplomatic), but it should come at a cost of time spent getting to the battle, if they seek revenge using a tank, they have to drive clear across the map to find their nemesis, this could on the bigger maps take a few minutes, certainly not 45 seconds!

 

100% correcto mundo

 

If you play Germany or Japan you will be revenge bomb or rocketed all the time, it's ridiculous. Kill an AMX-50 with type 61 WHILE UNDER COVER of a BUILDING on the winter Stalingrad map, 20 seconds later a plane shows up and kills me in one pass with rockets. What's the counter? Drive forwards out into B and be killed by a tank or try slow reverse backwards? I'm already under cover of a building... (So NOT EXPOSED) thnx Mouse aim + Instructor for godlike plane accuracy a 5yr old child could utilize. 

Edited by DaffanZ
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17 hours ago, DaffanZ said:

Because people don't want to be forced to play SPAA first. You know, they actually want to play the 99% of vehicles not pigeon holed into the 1%

 

Nobody forces anyone to do that.

 

However, those teams who leave themselves defenseless are not worthy of any sympathy.

 

3 hours ago, *thedeputy99 said:

Easy solution, just have planes spawn on the airfield,  the most irritating feature of aircraft in battles is the revenge attack, now to seek revenge is fine, a player is beaten in their tank by an opponents superior tactics so they resort to using aircraft to nullify the superior tactics, no problem with that(I am being diplomatic), but it should come at a cost of time spent getting to the battle, if they seek revenge using a tank, they have to drive clear across the map to find their nemesis, this could on the bigger maps take a few minutes, certainly not 45 seconds!

 

Aircraft already lack the ability to interact with zones, sending them minutes away for each leg would just make them noncompetitive.

 

They're vehicles that cannot cap with a handful of weapon launches compared to tanks' dozens speed should be part of the package.

 

30 minutes ago, DaffanZ said:

If you play Germany or Japan you will be revenge bomb or rocketed all the time, it's ridiculous

 

I have played those nations extensively, but aircraft represent no major threat--Germany even has the best SPAA.

 

31 minutes ago, DaffanZ said:

Kill an AMX-50 with type 61 WHILE UNDER COVER of a BUILDING on the winter Stalingrad map, 20 seconds later a plane shows up and kills me in one pass with rockets. What's the counter? Drive forwards out into B and be killed by a tank or try slow reverse backwards? I'm already under cover of a building... (So NOT EXPOSED) thnx Mouse aim + Instructor for godlike plane accuracy a 5yr old child could utilize. 

 

Your problem is with the kill cam then...but that was put in at the insistence of tankers.

 

Further, aircraft are balancing measures to not make camping in the heaviest armored tanks the end all, be all tactic.

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10 hours ago, NO_DRAGON said:

 

I haven't played Japan a lot, but I can not relate to the AAA problem of Japan.

 

 

5acaf405d9241_shot2018_04_0906_02_14.thu

The issue i'm trying to apply is not the Ta-Se which is doing good at its br but rather the So-Ki and the M42 Duster the So-Ki shouldnt be at 3.3br it should be 2.0 or  2.3 the duster just needs a lead indicator as even in arcade you miss quite a bit when someone moves about the So-Ki doesnt have high velocity and the rounds tend to drop and be less effective with longer ranges the trick i use for the So-Ki is to wait for someone to be about 600m out then i start engaging or if they fly over my head  or i try catching them when they climb 

 

Most of my Chi To kills are Russian Sherman bounce Chi To rounds like crazy

shot 2018.04.09 17.36.25.jpg

Edited by SasquatchFox360

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