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Close Air Support in Ground RB: Updated Version Post-1.71


*edited to reflect the total mayhem revolving around missile-toting helicopters being thrown into the Ground RB Melting Pot*

 

A lot has changed since the buff and nerf to rockets between 1.67 and 1.71, and other CAS armaments have changed mostly for the worse since then. 

 

For the most part, CAS is extremely ineffective these days, and usually isn’t able to seriously affect match outcomes anymore in a positive way. The most it does these days is doom the team using it.

 

Despite all the claims of people pushing for higher SP costs on planes, high tier GFs has proven that such a method of “fixing” things really doesn’t fix anything. All it does is delay the inevitable where many winning teams then shoot themselves in the foot by bothering to use planes at all. Thus, I side with @warrior412 and think that the only way to begin solving the CAS problem is to lower spawn costs of everything so both sides can spawn it at match start and thus it cancels itself out.

 

Next, its been proven time and again, especially with helicopters, that airspawn mechanics in RBGF are stupid. They facilitate revenge bombing roughly 30 seconds after you kill someone. All planes should spawn on the airfield, helipads need to be moved back to the side of the AF, and helicopters should spawn on the helipads. Fairly simple. 

 

Top-Tier SPAAG recently got the buff of radar, which was the very fix needed back during CAS spam, but not so much now with the overly ineffective weapons at top ranks (outside of the one oddball being the S-21 rocket). With the new spawn system, SPAAG would still need some modest SP increase to go along with their increased effectiveness. Lower ranking AA need a lead indicator out to 1km distance while radar ones would keep it out much longer.

 

Ordinance has gone from generally overperforming to massively underperforming since 1.71.

- Bomb kill radii need to be increased somewhat (I’d guestimate that having 500kg/1000lb bombs having kill radii even half as large as the nuclear “proton torpedoes” would be fine. 2000lb/1000kg should have bigger kill radii, and larger size bombs should honestly be just as destructive as the “proton torpedoes” were.)

- HVAR rockets need renaming to “Mk.6 HVAR” and their total pen needs to encompass the hardened nose and delayed fuse the rockets had, they were meant to punch through concrete fortifications. They had 25mm of armor pen plus 38mm from the HE charge inside.

- Mk.32 HVARs need to be added to the game with 290mm pen. They are HEAT rockets, and are a postwar development, so realistically only postwar planes using HVARs would have these.

- SAP RP-3 rockets need a correction to their pen, they are currently operating at their minimum possible pen while certain other rocket types (RBS-132) are at their max possible pen. They should pen in total about 60-something mm of armor from velocity and weight alone and add 45mm pen from the explosive charge. Thus with good aim one would wreck even a Tiger 1/2 from the side. 

- HEAT RP-3s need to be added to postwar planes using the rockets, with 200-300mm pen and better spalling from larger size than HVARs.

- HESH RP-3s need to be added to postwar planes, penning roughly 180mm of armor based on interpolation from existing HESH warhead sizes already ingame. 

- Tiny Tims need to be returned to 1.69 launch mechanics and have the excessive blast radius against the launching plane removed. No plane ingame gets more than two salvos of these rockets, so putting them on par with the Russian S-21 in effectiveness would NOT break anything.

- “Little Richard” 14-inch rockets need to be added to US planes as a further upgrade for postwar planes. They were tested on late-model Corsairs and were slated to be used on various postwar  planes, they used the same mountings as Tiny Tims.

- HEAT needs a significant spalling buff so that both HEAT tank rounds and rockets are significant threats.

- Germany is missing multiple categories of bombs, specifically including SB-type bombs and rocket-assisted bombs of all sizes. 

- Japan is missing several kinds of rocket bombs as well

- Both Germany and Japan are missing manually guided ordinance options, realistically these would be guided just like torpedoes were in the submarine event, your launch plane goes on autopilot and you steer the weapon to the target. If the launch plane gets killed control of the weapon ceases.

- multiple nations are missing shaped-charge cluster munitions.

 

Close Air Support also needs more objectives to do in Ground Forces besides just killing each other and player tanks.

- bring back the bombing bases on Tank Maps and have them be worth tickets

- make it possible to bomb out airbases whether bomb bases are destroyed or not. This would be worth as many tickets as any bomb point but would prevent enemy planes from spawning. All planes should spawn on the runway or have low-altitude and low-speed airspawns just behind the runway if they require too large of a takeoff distance.

- add truck and/or train convoys emenating from the bomb bases and AF towards player tank spawn points, make these worth tickets. Both planes and tanks would be able to shoot at these when they are in range.

- Add a large artillery platoon (or even three, one per bombing point) for aircraft to take out. Ideally these would vary based on the nation they’re fighting for - Long Toms for US, K-5/Schwerer Gustav for Germany, BM-13Ns and related vehicles for Russia, perhaps naval guns for Britain and Japan, and so forth.

- Add a single or double-belt of Light Pillboxes, Heavy Pillboxes, Howitzers, AT guns, and BMG nests defending spawn zones from lone-wolf spawn campers that both planes and tanks can kill to bleed tickets

- Perhaps allow planes to decap objectives by bombing them, they would give bombing score just like bomb targets, the larger the bomb, the faster the decap.

 

These are my proposals after having played both sides during the height of CAS spam (Germany and America, respectively) and witnessing all the changes that have happened afterwards.

 

CAS ultimately needs to not be able to be spammed so easily ever again, there should almost never be an early game situation where one side can use CAS unopposed, 1000-1500m airspawns need to go, all SPAAG need the lead indicators top ranking ones get, and above all else CAS needs a much larger variety of objectives to go destroy so they don’t need to kill exclusively player tanks.

 

I am starting a new discussion on this because it needs to happen so other topics not entirely related to CAS don’t get derailed. Already, @warrior412 has presented valuable statistics from Thunderskill:

- at its peak in 1.69, CAS accounted for ~17% of German tank deaths at 5.7. At every other BR bracket, it killed less than this, between 8% and 15% for the most part. Thus even at its peak CAS was very much overblown in effectiveness.

- With the proposed and historical ordinance buffs, I think an overall kill rate from each nation’s CAS should have a target around 10% of all tank deaths would be acceptable. Planes killing the other non-player targets would drive this number down.

 

And please, do not derail this thread into a ceaseless stat-shaming fest. Looking specifically at those that got the first thread massively derailed and locked.

Edited by MH4UAstragon
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I played last night a few games to test the stand alone OSS app at 5.7BR with US and found the same issues as before.     If you are good at dropping bombs and have a valid lineup (a combination of SPAA, Tanks, Fighter Bombers, and bombers)   Cap-N-fly with a SPAA is an overwhelmingly beneficial tactic.       The drastic difference in Spawn point earnings this provides is the most effective way to play by far.

 

You'll earn enough spawn points in 3 minutes to keep you spawning the rest of the game.

 

Address the spawn point earning differential (along with subsequent spawn costs) and this will limit Aircraft power substantially.

 

 

This tactic still worked very well as of last night.

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Ah yes, tanks should arguably earn more spawn points for kills and assists. 

 

And meanwhile I think tank RP & SL earnings should go up to a parity with planes.

 

Then obviously shared point doubling for all tank classes must go. Like with different classes of planes, point doubling would only happen for multiples of the same class. If you die in a medium tank then a backup of that tank or another medium tank in your lineup are the only things that increase in cost. 

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2 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Ah yes, tanks should arguably earn more spawn points for kills and assists. 

 

And meanwhile I think tank RP & SL earnings should go up to a parity with planes.

 

Then obviously shared point doubling for all tank classes must go. Like with different classes of planes, point doubling would only happen for multiples of the same class. If you die in a medium tank then a backup of that tank or another medium tank in your lineup are the only things that increase in cost. 

 

Agree...  Give tanks more or planes less; either way they need to be balanced against each other.    Right now; they're just out of whack with Spawn points earnings and spawns.   From a power perspective Aircraft really aren't as powerful from in how many they can kill; however, they can pinpoint strike hard targets and break up pushes that's underrated.  

 

Most of the time I didn't even want to fly; but, just did so to gain points towards using on the ground and securing respawns.    Getting knocked out of a game due to getting shot across the map and not having enough points to continue or just doing so as an SPAA sucked.

 

It would be cool to see the other stuff you mentioned and it would make it more enjoyable.   The frustration to me though is the fact they earn so much more and for me is always the optimal way to play...   Get to Aircraft fast (with a SPAA), bomb (securing spawns) before Enemy Air shows up and where enemy concentrations are highest, Spawn a fighter bomber that can dogfight with the Enemy fighters, then get back to the ground game with enough spawns for ~3 tanks (if the ground game is still going.)

 

It's a very routine and almost robotic way to play...    It's the most effective way to do it though.    

 

It would be really cool if it wasn't that way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Sidiros
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I tend to go about things differently these days. I usually spawn whatever tank I want to play on a map first, try to do what I can, then depending on the situation I take another tank or a plane (typically a fighter-bomber capable of dogfighting with enemy planes or just a pure fighter).

 

Basically in response to the overkill nerfs I’ve largely just stopped using CAS entirely. Bombs before 1.71 were not overpowered but they got shafted just as hard as rockets did via not fixing the “fall through the ground” problem. Typicially the most I’ll bother doing is taking some fighter able to lob a couple 1000lbers at something, that’s it really.

 

I was never a CAS god when CAS was actually good, and honestly the only things that felt wrong were how easily it was spammed and Germany/Japan not having similar CAS potential.

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People keeping saying bombs suck now yet you have mouse aim, third person and instructor that lets you drop them on top of enemy tanks with zero skill required and it's an instant kill. 

 

Most if not all of my KTH spading deaths were from planes.

 

Rockets counter any SPAA so easily it's hilarious, mouse aim + launch from 1500 meters away = instant kill. 

Edited by DaffanZ
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56 minutes ago, DaffanZ said:

People keeping saying bombs suck now yet you have mouse aim, third person and instructor that lets you drop them on top of enemy tanks with zero skill required and it's an instant kill. 

 

Most if not all of my KTH spading deaths were from planes.

 

Rockets counter any SPAA so easily it's hilarious, mouse aim + launch from 1500 meters away = instant kill. 

Depends what your SPAAG is. Something like an unarmored flak truck? Yeah they do get nuked by rockets still. But as far as I know it’s pretty hard to really nuke a Whirbelwind or Ostwind with rockets. HVARs have the pen of HE rounds but still act like HEAT rounds. RP-3s and japan Rockets are extremely low velocity so I doubt people are sniping with those. RBS rockets aren’t any better really. So yeah, you’re getting sniped by a handful of extremely skilled players, big deal.

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I dunno, I am for sure not the best AAA user around, yet even I manage to shoot Ducks and even ME 410 down with my BTR-152A.

 

Who sits still in the same Spot shooting on long range and multiple Planes didn't need to wonder if they come for ya.

Same as Sniping tanks, earlier or later the enemies will take the position under concentrated fire and then its only matter of time for the lucky hit or the sneaky flanker to get around.

And Bombing an Tank is not as easy if he is on the move and changes direction when he hears planes. Driving in a straight line is even so deadly.

 

If you play the skilled pilots in the hand canne blame the pilot for it.

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19 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

For the most part, CAS is extremely ineffective these days

meh, i ussualy manage to get some frags (bomb/rocket or strafing)

19 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Unloaded planes should have the same spawn costs as heavy tanks.

+1

19 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

All SPAAG also should have larger spawn costs so they can’t be used as cap-rushers anymore. 

best cappers are loltanks imo

19 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Close Air Support also needs more objectives to do in Ground Forces besides just killing each other and player tanks.

disagree, i dont like kiling bots/bases in tank RB

19 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

All planes should spawn on the runway or have low-altitude and low-speed airspawns just behind the runway if they require too large of a takeoff distance.

+1

19 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Planes killing the other non-player targets would drive this number down.

it looks like idea of bringing useless now in this mode (cuz they are slow unmaneuvrable an make huge targets) bombers to tank RB :S and making a way to farm them by fighters ;) 

11 hours ago, DaffanZ said:

People keeping saying bombs suck now yet you have mouse aim, third person and instructor that lets you drop them on top of enemy tanks with zero skill required and it's an instant kill. 

radius is way to small tho (sometimes easier to blow up ur own tail than enemy tank

17 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

And meanwhile I think tank RP & SL earnings should go up to a parity with planes.

+1

also bigger maps are needed.

and reduce BR spread to 0.7 at least

when i get full uptier 1st thing to do is cap n fly (if not possible spawn loltank and j out )

 

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I'm still getting killed by bombs, rockets or cannons, often while moving, at least one-third of the times that I am actually attacked in earnest...perhaps more. Which is not super often because I try to keep a low profile and play smart.

 

The expectation that each aerial weapon delivery (each sortie for that matter) should result in a kill is not reasonable. Attacking hard targets from the air has until very recently with smart munitions been a high-volume/low yield activity. This should be reflected in game. I can't speak to the "radar SPAA" controversy since I haven't played up there since the changes, but at 4.0 CAS seems to be exactly what it should be: "Close Air Support". Camp in one spot and you'll get rekt. Keep moving, use terrain, roll SPAA etc. and the CAS will have to work hard for their kills as they should.

 

I personally hope that the devs leave the current CAS situation alone for at least as long as they allowed rockets to LOLdelete everyone during the heyday of CAS. Then maybe they could compare some hard data to decide what is best long-term instead of constantly moving the goalposts.

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1 hour ago, LuftMaus said:

best cappers are loltanks imo

This is only if all SPAAG get lead indicators and then recieve uptiers to reflect their new anti-air performance.

1 hour ago, LuftMaus said:

disagree, i dont like kiling bots/bases in tank RB

YOU may not care for it, but others might want more to do than just be the “bane” of tank players’ existence. Planes performed countless support roles in reality that aren’t available ingame. If the ticket counter is thought of as a “remaining resources invested in this engagement” meter, then tying bot targets and bases to the ticket counter makes perfect sense.

1 hour ago, LuftMaus said:

it looks like idea of bringing useless now in this mode (cuz they are slow unmaneuvrable an make huge targets) bombers to tank RB :S and making a way to farm them by fighters ;) 

Yes this is also part of the purpose, to give larger bombers a real place in combined arms outside straight trolling.

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12 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Depends what your SPAAG is. Something like an unarmored flak truck? Yeah they do get nuked by rockets still. But as far as I know it’s pretty hard to really nuke a Whirbelwind or Ostwind with rockets. HVARs have the pen of HE rounds but still act like HEAT rounds. RP-3s and japan Rockets are extremely low velocity so I doubt people are sniping with those. RBS rockets aren’t any better really. So yeah, you’re getting sniped by a handful of extremely skilled players, big deal.

Pro tip


You don't actually have to penetrate the SPAA to kill it with rockets. Cuz ya know, the crew are exposed to air attacks in the Wirbel and Ostwind.  Yes they are far and away the best SPAA up until 7.3 but 1) You have to be driving it to actually use it -- it doesn't protect you against revenge bombers or cap  n fly bombers while your in your main tank, which both of these are the most risk averse yet rewarding and effective strategies in this game. 

 

You only have to look as far as how many planes use MG and Cannon to strafe tanks endlessly, they have ZERO fear of the majority of SPAA, and actually LIKE when SPAA shoots them so now they can easily snipe them when they look away for a second. 

Edited by DaffanZ
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25 minutes ago, DaffanZ said:

Pro tip


You don't actually have to penetrate the SPAA to kill it with rockets. Cuz ya know, the crew are exposed to air attacks in the Wirbel and Ostwind.  Yes they are far and away the best SPAA up until 7.3 but 1) You have to be driving it to actually use it -- it doesn't protect you against revenge bombers or cap  n fly bombers while your in your main tank, which both of these are the most risk averse yet rewarding and effective strategies in this game. 

 

You only have to look as far as how many planes use MG and Cannon to strafe tanks endlessly, they have ZERO fear of the majority of SPAA, and actually LIKE when SPAA shoots them so now they can easily snipe them when they look away for a second. 

And this is precisely why all SPAAG need the same marker and lead indicator mechanics the top tier ones get, but those without radar or laser rangefinding display such features at a closer distance.

 

Then they can become something to be feared.

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@NO_DRAGON made a rather interesting point in another recent topic: “Why don’t planes have the scouting ability that light tanks have?”

 

Recon was yet another thing planes did irl (some planes like the event Fw-189 and the Ar-234B-2 were specialized in this role) that planes cannot easily do ingame.

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On 4/6/2018 at 10:11 AM, MH4UAstragon said:

Pure fighters not loading armored target belts, rockets, or bombs are meanwhile too expensive to spawn in - they should be an option as first-spawn units to directly counter potential Cap-n-Fly players. Unloaded planes should have the same spawn costs as heavy tanks.

 

Lower-ranking SPAAG also need something similar to this, most likely with a shorter effective range than radar-equipped ones. All SPAAG also should have larger spawn costs so they can’t be used as cap-rushers anymore. 

 

Light Tanks generally got buffed to hell with the update adding the French (precisely because of the AMX-13 SS.11 bundle pack no doubt), and yet their spawn costs remained almost insanely low. With all their new abilities, it’s high time we see all light tanks get said abilities regardless of tier and simultaneously see their spawn costs increase again. This knocks out yet another arm of Cap & Fly. 

 

Close Air Support also needs more objectives to do in Ground Forces besides just killing each other and player tanks.

- bring back the bombing bases on Tank Maps and have them be worth tickets

- make it possible to bomb out airbases whether bomb bases are destroyed or not. This would be worth as many tickets as any bomb point but would prevent enemy planes from spawning. All planes should spawn on the runway or have low-altitude and low-speed airspawns just behind the runway if they require too large of a takeoff distance.

- add truck and/or train convoys emenating from the bomb bases and AF towards player tank spawn points, make these worth tickets. Both planes and tanks would be able to shoot at these when they are in range.

- Add a large artillery platoon (or even three, one per bombing point) for aircraft to take out. Ideally these would vary based on the nation they’re fighting for - Long Toms for US, K-5/Schwerer Gustav for Germany, BM-13Ns and related vehicles for Russia, perhaps naval guns for Britain and Japan, and so forth.

- Add a single or double-belt of Light Pillboxes, Heavy Pillboxes, Howitzers, AT guns, and BMG nests defending spawn zones from lone-wolf spawn campers that both planes and tanks can kill to bleed tickets

 

Agree with everything except for these:

SPAA's: They are already very strong, the radar mechanic was completely unnecessary and a lot of these don't even work like they did IRL.  SPAA's don't need a higher spawn cost; rather, give them a longer time to finish capping a zone.

Light tanks: Keep the SP the same, again, give them an increased time to cap zones.

Bases: This would be useless and an easy way to rid the enemy team of SP, for both ways.  Imagine the Tu-4 spam in Ground RB, or the Me 163 spam to intercept them.

Airfield spawn: Keep the air spawn, but move the spawns further apart from each other.

Truck/train convoys: Easy SP for one team if they coordinate right (i.e., each person kills 3 AI ground vehicles).  Also, that distracts from the main point of this game mode, the PvP tanks.

Artillery Platoons: Again, easy SP.  Go to Air RB to kill AI's.

Pillboxes: Favored for the U.S., they have .50 cals that pop Light Pillboxes easily.  Also, detracts away from the tank part of RB GF and CAS (you're supposed to support friendly tanks, not kill AI).

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14 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Yes this is also part of the purpose, to give larger bombers a real place in combined arms outside straight trolling.

big bombers gonna be food for hungry fighters ;) well .. i cant oppose to this..

13 hours ago, DaffanZ said:

You only have to look as far as how many planes use MG and Cannon to strafe tanks endlessly, they have ZERO fear of the majority of SPAA, and actually LIKE when SPAA shoots them so now they can easily snipe them when they look away for a second. 

<3

confirmed

but when spaa is in skilled hands is scary and shredding planes

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, LuftMaus said:

big bombers gonna be food for hungry fighters ;) well .. i cant oppose to this..

<3

confirmed

but when spaa is in skilled hands is scary and shredding planes

How to know that SPAA does not need a buff:

1. Play out M16 MGMC

2. Shred 4 planes in a row that try to head on you.

3. Repeat.

 

Also, did you get a new computer, or did it blow up?  Also, I miss the "ULTRA LUFT QWALITY" signatures.

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currently using my old workstation, potato refuse to turn on today, no idea why :S (probably it become french fry )

1 hour ago, Ska_King_Felix said:

Also, I miss the "ULTRA LUFT QWALITY" signatures

need to transfer some software to workstation then gonna work on signatures ;)  for now enjoy pain kwality and french fries :P

Edited by LuftMaus
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10 hours ago, Ska_King_Felix said:

SPAA's: They are already very strong, the radar mechanic was completely unnecessary and a lot of these don't even work like they did IRL.  SPAA's don't need a higher spawn cost; rather, give them a longer time to finish capping a zone.

Except they do need higher spawn costs for multiple reasons, IF all of them get the lead indicator. 

- Suddenly they’re more than cappers/assist-farmers/throwaway vehicles, their usefulness drastically increases and thus so should their spawn costs

- Higher spawn costs also mean the game isn’t forcing you to spawn them in matches that are already lost so goddamn often.

- And higher spawn costs directly chew into Cap & Fly’s main advantage

10 hours ago, Ska_King_Felix said:

Light tanks: Keep the SP the same, again, give them an increased time to cap zones.

I don’t know how you can say this with a straight face. Some light tanks might qualify as being so worthless (M24 due only to constant uptiers to 4.3, it literally cannot do anything to the rather spammed out KV-1 ZiS-5s) to deserve such low spawn costs, but others are far too powerful in comparison (Ru-251 and Object 906 can frontally pen basically everything they’ll ever see and then some). And raising spawn costs means one zone cap will just not be enough to spam out ordinance/heavy-cannon-loaded planes.

10 hours ago, Ska_King_Felix said:

Bases: This would be useless and an easy way to rid the enemy team of SP, for both ways.  Imagine the Tu-4 spam in Ground RB, or the Me 163 spam to intercept them.

Wow, this is one reason why teams would be allowed to spawn clean fighters from the start of games. Air RB is an overly predictable uptier wasteland, might as well modify Combined Arms so that all planes have a place in it.

10 hours ago, Ska_King_Felix said:

Airfield spawn: Keep the air spawn, but move the spawns further apart from each other.

I could get behind every map’s AFs being spaced like Port Novo, but with at most 300m airspawns just above normal takeoff speed. Not 1000-1500m at much higher speed, it’s excessive.

10 hours ago, Ska_King_Felix said:

Truck/train convoys: Easy SP for one team if they coordinate right (i.e., each person kills 3 AI ground vehicles).  Also, that distracts from the main point of this game mode, the PvP tanks.

Actually, it provides targets of opporitunity for aircraft so they aren’t constantly ruining the life of tank players. Technically it is a distraction, but its one the mode needs. Planes in reality killed tanks mostly indirectly by KOing support structures. Also adding Air RB targets allows for use of some attackers that are otherwise crap in GFs to have a real place.

10 hours ago, Ska_King_Felix said:

Artillery Platoons: Again, easy SP.  Go to Air RB to kill AI's

Have you seen how excessively fighter-centric basically all map design is there? Attackers are basically flying meatwads broadcasting “please kill me” whenever they spawn. Who cares if its easy SP, everyone is capable of doing it. Hell, if the minibases are placed correctly (in roughly a 2km radius around the battlefield) then tanks could even shell the arty positions on the bases with HE rounds or ATGMs/HESH, which was something they really did. Just because PvP is in both modes does NOT mean it should be the absolute center of the mission structure. Important, yes. So overly centered on it that it effectively smothers everything else? NO.

10 hours ago, Ska_King_Felix said:

Pillboxes: Favored for the U.S., they have .50 cals that pop Light Pillboxes easily.  Also, detracts away from the tank part of RB GF and CAS (you're supposed to support friendly tanks, not kill AI).

Then maybe its high time to buff other aircraft weapons so all nations can easily and reliably pop Light Pillboxes. Heavy ones would require accurate bomb drops. It does NOT detract from the tank part, in fact it adds to it. Tanks have just as much opporitunity to kill these as planes do, it gives planes something else to shoot their ordinance at besides exclusively player vehicles, it gives teams winning the ground an easy way to quickly bleed out remaining tickets in an active way, and it defends against lone-wolf spawncampers. What isn’t good about all that? Oh, must be dethroning the holy team deathmatch. TDM should be important but it shouldn’t be so much so that it completely smothers out all planes (or even a few tanks like the 105 Sherman/StuG, SU-122, and so forth) not suited to TDM.

 

Also, inclusion of all these sorts of things paves the way for new mode types beyond the current Conquest, Domination, and Battle.

- What about an actual Conquest mode where one side holds a key position and the other has to take that over as the only way to win?

- Or a Front Line Mode where the win condition is breaking the enemy front line of AIs and then slowly capturing a giant, oblong cap zone situated behind the front?

- Or improving Break Mode in a better way so it’s more of a back & forth situation akin to the PS2 Star Wars Battlefront 2, where all capture zones are spawn points and vice versa. In this mode, getting flanked and encircled is now far more dangerous, if your rear spawn gets decapped or capped by the enemy, you have people spawning in front of and behind you in addition to whoever enemies actually did the act.

 

Focusing on Team Deathmatch so strongly is stymiing the game’s real potential to actually be inclusive for all kinds of planes and tanks. Focusing on Team Deathmatch creates really stale gameplay. The game’s main selling point is combined arms but it has yet to become actually inclusive of all plane and tank classes. 

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22 hours ago, DaffanZ said:

You only have to look as far as how many planes use MG and Cannon to strafe tanks endlessly, they have ZERO fear of the majority of SPAA, and actually LIKE when SPAA shoots them so now they can easily snipe them when they look away for a second. 

 

If an incompetent team allows for themselves to be caught with their pants down, that's their fault.

 

It's like complaining that an M2A4 killed you after you spent a whole lot of time ignoring him up to when he killed you.

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8 hours ago, Ska_King_Felix said:

How to know that SPAA does not need a buff:

1. Play out M16 MGMC

2. Shred 4 planes in a row that try to head on you.

3. Repeat.

 

Also, did you get a new computer, or did it blow up?  Also, I miss the "ULTRA LUFT QWALITY" signatures.

the early french or the Italian 

Now do the same with M19, M42, Ta-Se the early French or the yet non implemented Italian ones when not headed on.

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25 minutes ago, NO_DRAGON said:

the early french or the Italian 

Now do the same with M19, M42, Ta-Se the early French or the yet non implemented Italian ones when not headed on.

This is why we need lead markers to make these somewhat worthwhile in the anti-air role. Also add the ZUT-37 and ZSU-37.

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1 hour ago, warrior412 said:

 

If an incompetent team allows for themselves to be caught with their pants down, that's their fault.

 

It's like complaining that an M2A4 killed you after you spent a whole lot of time ignoring him up to when he killed you.

Is this your dumb idea that people should spawn SPAA first again?

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14 minutes ago, DaffanZ said:

Is this your dumb idea that people should spawn SPAA first again?

Idk. But I do think there should be at least some reason for people to bother spawning SPAAG first, just like on most maps there is some kind of reason to spawn any other class of vehicle.

- city maps or long range maps favor armor-reliant heavies and heavy/armored TDs

- maps with enough room to move favor lights, mediums, and fast TDs

- uptiers tend to prefer derp guns

- and if planes, even clean fighters, were allowed as first spawn units there would be some reason for people to spawn SPAAG up front besides numbskull cap-rushing.

 

Now I don’t want to force people to spawn AA up front, so that is why for any fighters spawning early in a game, Armored Target belts would be prohibited, as would any kind of ordinance.

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2 hours ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Then maybe its high time to buff other aircraft weapons so all nations can easily and reliably pop Light Pillboxes. Heavy ones would require accurate bomb drops. It does NOT detract from the tank part, in fact it adds to it. Tanks have just as much opporitunity to kill these as planes do, it gives planes something else to shoot their ordinance at besides exclusively player vehicles, it gives teams winning the ground an easy way to quickly bleed out remaining tickets in an active way, and it defends against lone-wolf spawncampers. What isn’t good about all that? Oh, must be dethroning the holy team deathmatch. TDM should be important but it shouldn’t be so much so that it completely smothers out all planes (or even a few tanks like the 105 Sherman/StuG, SU-122, and so forth) not suited to TDM

The main probelm with the Light Pillboxes is that even if you buff other nations' weapons to kill light pillboxes easily, the U.S. still has planes like the P-38, P-47D, and P-47N, which have over 400 rounds per gun.

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  • _Catweazle_63 changed the title to Close Air Support in Ground RB: Updated Version Post-1.71
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