Tasty95215

Experimental Ho-I with the Experimental 57mm tank gun Kou

Ho-I 57mm  

144 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like to see the Ho-I 57mm in War Thunder?

    • Yes
      117
    • Yes (as a premium)
      21
    • No
      6
  2. 2. What BR do you think it would be?

    • 2.0
      15
    • 2.3
      45
    • 2.7
      39
    • I'll leave that to Gaijin
      37
    • I said no
      6


This suggestion is for a little-known Japanese experimental tank. While the majority of the Type 2 Ho-I tanks built had the short 75mm Type 99 tank gun, in 1943 one tank was tested with an experimental high-velocity 57mm gun. While the prototype wasn't accepted into service, I believe that it could fit quite well in War Thunder.

 

 

Z8ZJylY.png

A drawing of the 57mm Ho-I, courtesy of @I_NAMELESS_I. There aren't any known photographs of this tank.

Background Information

The Type 2 Ho-I was designed as an infantry support tank, using the chassis of the Type 1 Chi-He combined with a newly designed hexagonal turret, the shape of which would later be used for the Type 3 Chi-Nu and Type 5 Chi-Ri. With its 75mm Type 99 tank gun, it had a more useful high-explosive shell than the standard 57mm Type 90/97 that was common in the Japanese army, while also having decent anti-tank capabilities with its HEAT shell, which was able to penetrate 100mm of armor (although it can only penetrate 76 in War Thunder).

 

hoi4.jpg

 

Parallel to the Ho-I's development, another weapon was being developed - the experimental 57mm anti-tank gun, which was started in 1941 (I've seen it called both "Type 1" and "Type 2"). It was essentially a larger version of the Type 1 47mm anti-tank gun and shared various parts, such as the recoil guard. In 1942, it was tested with the experimental APHE shell, HE shells, practice target shells, and the Type 2 HEAT shell. The muzzle velocity of this gun was around 850-870 m/s. While the firing tests were successful, the gun's performance wasn't enough of an improvement over the Type 1 47mm AT gun to be accepted into service, and it was cancelled on June 30, 1943.

 

IJA_Experimental_57mm_anti-tank_gun_01.j

The experimental Type 2 57mm anti-tank gun

 

A tank version of this gun was also developed and tested. There were two versions of this gun - a Kou (甲) model and an Otsu (乙) model, which were tested on a Type 2 Ho-I and a Type 1 Ho-Ni I respectively on April 1943. The Kou model of the gun had a muzzle velocity of 800 m/s and the the Otsu model had a muzzle velocity of 900 m/s. However, as with its anti-tank version, the Kou and Otsu models wasn't considered enough of an improvement over the Type 1 47mm tank gun to be put into production. What happened to the prototype Ho-I and the Ho-Ni afterwards is unknown, though they were likely converted back into their standard forms.

 

 Nevertheless, the test results for the two models were used to further develop the gun, resulting in the Shin (新) or "new", model experimental 57mm tank gun. This had a muzzle velocity of 810 m/s and was used on the first Chi-To prototype, though it too was later cancelled. Apparently, the experimental 57mm Shin was also tested briefly with the Type 5 Ke-Ho light tank as well in 1945, though I haven't seen any sources for this.

 

57_mm_Chi_To.jpg

A drawing of the first Chi-To prototype with the experimental 57mm tank gun. This turret was noted as being very similar to the Ho-I's, though the Chi-To's had more armor.

 

Ammunition:

  • Experimental Type 1 APHE
    • Penetration is described as being slightly higher than the Type 1 47mm tank gun's Type 1 APHE.
      • Exact test results of the Kou model are unknown, but going by its 800 m/s muzzle velocity it's likely very close to the Shin model's performance (810 m/s).
      • 75mm at 500 meters and 65mm at 1000 meters from the Shin model gun.
      • Another test has the values being slightly lower. Note that this chart is for the anti-tank version, which has inferior performance despite having a higher muzzle velocity for some reason. Maybe the ammunition quality/testing steel quality changed between the tests?
        Spoiler

        NhKyFNb.png

 

    • By Gaijin's penetration calculator, the penetration at point blank would be 93mm:
      • ysrwMuq.png
    • Explosive mass is unknown, though it's likely between the Type 1 47mm APHE (17 grams) and the Type 1 75mm APHE (56 grams). My estimate is about 30 grams
    • Explosive type is likely 90% RDX and 10% Paraffin

0dCLaoY.png2ymLHba.png

 

 

  • Experimental HE
  • Type 2 HEAT
    • Probably the same kind that was used with the Type 90/97 57mm tank guns.
    • This shell penetrated 55mm at all ranges.
  • Experimental Target (practice?) shells

 

Specifications:

As all that changed for this modification was replacing the Ho-I's gun, all other stats - engine power, armor, dimensions, are the same. While I couldn't find the weight of the Kou model, it was likely similar to the Shin model, which weighed 543 kg. The Type 99 75mm tank gun that the Ho-I normally used weighed 541.716 kg, so the mobility between the normal Ho-I and the 57mm Ho-I should be essentially identical.

 

Armament consists of 1 x Experimental 57mm tank gun Kou, 2 x Type 97 7.7mm machine guns (1 x in AA mount on turret, 1 x in hull)

 

87vaMgf.jpg

A picture of the 57mm Ho-I showing off its 15 degrees of gun depression, taken from a larger picture.

 

In War Thunder:

This tank would likely above the BR of the Chi-He (which sits at 2.3 currently), as the gun is significantly better compared to the 47mm (when using Gaijin's penetration calculator). Compared to the Chi-Nu, Ho-I 57mm is smaller, faster, and has a quicker reload, while the Chi-Nu has slightly higher penetration, more explosive filler, and smoke shells.

 

Sources:

Edited by Tasty95215
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Open for discussion. :salute:

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Yes please! I love the Ho-I for it's small size, good armour and powerfull gun. But this 57mm might be even better!

(Might want to add a poll to this topic)

Edited by super_cacti
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While I do support the idea of this vehicle, you really should see if you can find some more important details, like the explosive mass of the shell for example.

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2 hours ago, Muammar_Gaddaf69 said:

While I do support the idea of this vehicle, you really should see if you can find some more important details, like the explosive mass of the shell for example.

 

From a quick search in the Japanese National Archives, File C15120354800 does seem to talk about the experimental tank gun, though there doesn't seem to be any mention on the shells used.

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Yes, this tank should be added! Ho-I turret is one of the most protected turret in the Japanese tier 2. It's ranging from 50 to 100 mm thick. I like the tank but i don't like the howitzer gun, APHE has to little pen and HEAT get absorb by everything. Another version with anti-tank capability is necessary !

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On 14/10/2018 at 06:26, Tasty95215 said:

@I_NAMELESS_I You're kinda amazing. First the Ke-Ho render and now this? That's honestly really cool.

I will be spending hours to do anything if it is for the sake of Japanese ground forces. :salute:

Edited by I_NAMELESS_I
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15 hours ago, SPANISH_AVENGER said:

Paper...

Should i be believing people with decently enough sources to prove its existence, or a random Spanish dude who probably doesn't know the basic history of Japanese tanks. 

:facepalm::D

Edited by I_NAMELESS_I
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10 minutes ago, I_NAMELESS_I said:

Should i be believing a guy with enough sources to prove its existence, or a random Spanish dude who probably doesn't know the basic history of Japanese tanks. 

:facepalm::D

 

Whoa, someone got offended! :crazy:

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6 hours ago, I_NAMELESS_I said:

Nahh, just stating a fact.

lmao  :017::D

To his defense, there's no actual evidence provided that the gun was actually fitted to the Ho-I so yes, this would be a paper vehicle. There's no substantial proof that it was built so forgive people of being skeptical. It also doesn't really need to be added to the game due the Japanese having fine vehicles around these BRs anyway, higher tiers is where the Japanese need looking at.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Ironside112 said:

To his defense, there's no actual evidence provided that the gun was actually fitted to the Ho-I so yes, this would be a paper vehicle. There's no substantial proof that it was built so forgive people of being skeptical. It also doesn't really need to be added to the game due the Japanese having fine vehicles around these BRs anyway, higher tiers is where the Japanese need looking at.

 

 

The proof is that the gun and the vehicle itself were built! The only thing they had to do was just install the gun into the tank, they didn't have to completely build anything from scrap!

  I mean there is a reason why a drawing of its  and the story about this project that lead to Chi-To prototype 1 exist.

 

Wikipedia only provide the information on the Ho-I and the 57mm gun, the drawing should be from a book similar to Chi-Nu Kai drawing by Tomio Hara.

Again if GJ is interested they can easily offer Mai for help since i don't think she wrote her blog out of thin air...?

Edited by I_NAMELESS_I
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6 hours ago, Ironside112 said:

It also doesn't really need to be added to the game due the Japanese having fine vehicles around these BRs anyway, higher tiers is where the Japanese need looking at.

 

And no, i went back and playing Japanese low tiers more than i ever play tier 6 5 and 4. I do not enjoy the game as much in high tier battle and found WW2 tanks are fit to my liking. I have the Type 90 fully spaded, well, i already fully researched the whole Japanese tech tree with everything is spaded except for American/ JSDF tanks, and yet i still sometime go back to tier 1 playing Ha-Go, Ho-Ro or Chi-Ha, if that says anything...

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2 hours ago, I_NAMELESS_I said:

The proof is that the gun and the vehicle itself were built! The only thing they had to do was just install the gun into the tank

 

See? So just as i said. This tank is on the same category as Tiger 105 or Panther II, and those tanks are going to be removed from the tech trees for being what they are... vehicles never actually built, assembled. Not even a single prototype, so it can not even be considered a prototype.

 

The funniest part is that you called me troll and demanded me to explain myself on Live.WT and then you blocked me before i could lol, but seing your posts both in Live and in the Forum i understand you... you are a japanese tank fan who blindly supports anything that could be on the empire of the rising sun's tech tree, and whoever disagrees with adding a tank ingame which was never built, gets blacklisted and called ''troll''.

Edited by SPANISH_AVENGER
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7 minutes ago, SPANISH_AVENGER said:

 

See? So just as i said. This tank is on the same category as Tiger 105 or Panther II, and those tanks are going to be removed from the tech trees for being what they are...

They aren't going anywhere.

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By the way, just to make things clear before anything: I'm sorry if my opinion about never built nor assembled vehicles offends any lover of said vehicles, but the fact that i just want War Thunder to remain as authentic as possible (as it has always been advertised and supossed to be) does not make me a ''troll'', nor a ''hater'' nor a ''random ignorant.''

Edited by SPANISH_AVENGER
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57 minutes ago, SPANISH_AVENGER said:

 

Gaijin said they were going to hide them from the tree, making them unaviable to research

Source? 

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15 minutes ago, WulfPack said:

Source? 

 

They said it on a stream on this years' April if i recall correctly, can't find it now, but since then, many youtubers, like Phlydaily, and several users have been talking about it and making videos and posts and stuff.

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4 hours ago, I_NAMELESS_I said:

The proof is that the gun and the vehicle itself were built! The only thing they had to do was just install the gun into the tank, they didn't have to completely build anything from scrap!

  I mean there is a reason why a drawing of its  and the story about this project that lead to Chi-To prototype 1 exist.

 

Wikipedia only provide the information on the Ho-I and the 57mm gun, the drawing should be from a book similar to Chi-Nu Kai drawing by Tomio Hara.

Again if GJ is interested they can easily offer Mai for help since i don't think she wrote her blog out of thin air...?

The AC IV we have in game is a more paper vehicle than this one would be.

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