CaID

Spanish HA 1109 & 1112 for Italian tree

would you like to see the HA-1109K1L be added to the Italian tree?  

33 members have voted

  1. 1. would you like to see the HA-1109K1L be added to the Italian tree?

    • Yes in the research line
      26
    • Yes, as premium/gift/events vehicles
      6
    • No
      1
  2. 2. would you like to see the HA-1109K2L be added to the Italian tree?

    • Yes in the research line
      21
    • Yes, as premium/gift/events vehicles
      11
    • No
      1
  3. 3. would you like to see the HA-1112K1L be added to the Italian tree?

    • Yes in the research line
      23
    • Yes, as premium/gift/events vehicles
      9
    • No
      1
  4. 4. would you like to see the HA-1112M1L be added to the Italian tree?

    • Yes in the research line
      24
    • Yes, as premium/gift/events vehicles
      8
    • No
      1


spain_grunge_flag_by_elthalen-d5ciga0.jp

 

i would like to suggest a interresting series of planes who is not really part of any nation but would give a axis taste to the italian tree, the Spanish Ha 1109 an 1112

008spain12.jpg

 

The Ha 1109 was a Spanish development of the BF.109. in 1942, Spain obtained a license for assembled the BF.109G-2 with part supplied from Germany. the Messerschmitt company was however unable to deliver the required piece to built the planes in spain as Germany was the main client and had the priority of the production and this production wasn't sufficient for the German aviation. Spain only received 25 empty BF.109 frame without tail as a first delivery of part for the local planes production. the turning of event made Messerschmitt failled to deliver any other part to fill this contract.

 

Spain didn't waited to look for an alternative for the local production of the BF.109. using a BF.109E as a test bed, Spain successfully re-engine the planes with a Hispano-Suiza 89-12Z engine as a replacement of the DB.605A originally used. the conversion was made as early as 1944 in Barcelona. the plane was renamed Me.109J by Messerschmitt. with the sucess of the flight test of the Me.109J Spain started to built new planes from the frame of the BF.109G-2 and named the new planes the HA-1109-J1L using VDM propeller and lash-up engine mounting. the first plane flow for the first time in Seville in march 1945. the sucess of the prototype leaded to the production of 24 planes with the 24 BF.109 Frames still in the inventory. those planes had  Escher-Wyss propellers as the only difference from the Prototype and was built between 1947 and 1949. they was built and founctional but never entered into services. the reason of the plane didn't saw services was by that time, due to the bad performance of the engine, the Hispano-Suiza 89-12Z was replaced by the Hispano-Suiza 17-12Z and the armament was replaced by 12.7mm Debra. the new conversion was named HA-1109K1L and saw a first flight in 1951. by that time, the plane was obvious obsolete in 1951 (pretty much everyone wanted and had Jets) the plane was to be converted into a ground attacker to see any services in Spain. the Ha-1109K1L was a little live before been converted into HA-1112-K1L with a new three blade propeller, two 20mm Hispano-suiza 404 cannon on the wing and two rack of 8 cm Flz.-Rakete Oerlikon unguided rocket.

 

13b498a775feb0c6318c0c57bc39f4fa.jpg

Why adding to planes in the Italian tree? simply because the Italian and Spanish culture are close. the language is also close, during the WW2 Spain was one of the main client state of Italy and during the Spanish civil war, the Italian was actively supporting the Spanish fascist government. Spain could also be in the German tree for the same reason for the Italian. but the German tree do not need other nations to have a very large variety of planes. Italian have a lot of planes, but not as much as Germany and the Spanish planes would fit well in their tree. the Spanish do not have much original planes and variants and until the 60s, they was mostly using the Axis military planes which will keep the Italian tree a Fascist taste close to the German without been total copy paste.

 

Variants

 

HA-1109J1L

Spoiler

MesserschmittMe-109E-1withHispanoSu.jpg

production from 1947

unarmed per-production version of the Ha-1109

 

good planes but it's unarmed so it willn't be in the suggestion.

 

25 built.

 

HA-1109K1L

Spoiler

Hispano+Aviaci%C3%B3n+HA+1109.JPG

development from 1951

This version was powered by a Hispaniola-Suiza 17-12Z engine and had a pair of 12.7mm Debra MG over the engine. it was intended to be a figher planes but was too slow to fight the planes of that times, it was decided to convert the plane into ground attacker.

 

24 conversion from the Ha-1109J1L

 

General characteristics

  • Crew: one
  • Length: 8.49 m (27 ft 10 in)
  • Wingspan: 9.92 m (32 ft 7 in)
  • Height: 2.60 m (8 ft 6 in)
  • Wing area: 16 m2 (170 sq ft)
  • Empty weight: 2,475 kg (5,456 lb)
  • Max takeoff weight: 3,200 kg (7,055 lb)
  • Powerplant: 1 × Hispano-Suiza 12Z-17 V-12 liquid-cooled piston engine, 970 kW (1,300 hp)
  • Propellers: 3-bladed Hamilton-Standard constant speed propeller

Performance

  • Maximum speed: 600 km/h (373 mph; 324 kn)
  • Cruise speed: 400 km/h (249 mph; 216 kn)
  • Range: 690 km (429 mi; 373 nmi)
  • Service ceiling: 9,800 m (32,200 ft)
  • Rate of climb: 28.33 m/s (5,577 ft/min) [31]
  • Wing loading: 200 kg/m2 (41 lb/sq ft)

Armament

  • Guns: 2x 12.7 mm Debra MG

 

HA-1109K2L

Spoiler

Hispano+Aviaci%C3%B3n+HA+HA+1109+C-4+Buc

Develipment from 1951

 

this was a conversion from the HA-1109J1L into ground attacker. it had no machin-gun yet but was capable to carry eight unguided Flz.-Rakete Oerlikon rocket. this was a test bed for the ground attacker version of the planes.

 

1 conversion Ha-1109J1L

 

General characteristics

  • Crew: one
  • Length: 8.49 m (27 ft 10 in)
  • Wingspan: 9.92 m (32 ft 7 in)
  • Height: 2.60 m (8 ft 6 in)
  • Wing area: 16 m2 (170 sq ft)
  • Empty weight: 2,475 kg (5,456 lb)
  • Max takeoff weight: 3,200 kg (7,055 lb)
  • Powerplant: 1 × Hispano-Suiza 12Z-17 V-12 liquid-cooled piston engine, 970 kW (1,300 hp)
  • Propellers: 3-bladed Hamilton-Standard constant speed propeller

Performance

  • Maximum speed: 600 km/h (373 mph; 324 kn)
  • Cruise speed: 400 km/h (249 mph; 216 kn)
  • Range: 690 km (429 mi; 373 nmi)
  • Service ceiling: 9,800 m (32,200 ft)
  • Rate of climb: 28.33 m/s (5,577 ft/min) [31]
  • Wing loading: 200 kg/m2 (41 lb/sq ft)

Armament

  • Rockets: two racks of 4 x 80 mm Oerlikon rockets

 

HA-1112K1L "Tripala"

Spoiler

Hispno+Aviaci%C3%B3n+H1109_esp_2.jpeg

development from 1951

this planes become very interresting, the armament was change for two 20mm Hispano-Suiza 404/408 cannon (the debra 12.7mm was removed) and the plane also had the capacity to carry rocket. the plane saw service in the spanish air-force from 1965. those planes are sometime disguise as BF.109 for movies.

 

24 converted planes (HA-1109K1L and K2L) 40 newly built.

 

General characteristics

  • Crew: one
  • Length: 8.49 m (27 ft 10 in)
  • Wingspan: 9.92 m (32 ft 7 in)
  • Height: 2.60 m (8 ft 6 in)
  • Wing area: 16 m2 (170 sq ft)
  • Empty weight: 2,475 kg (5,456 lb)
  • Max takeoff weight: 3,200 kg (7,055 lb)
  • Powerplant: 1 × Hispano-Suiza 12Z-17 V-12 liquid-cooled piston engine, 970 kW (1,300 hp)
  • Propellers: 3-bladed Hamilton-Standard constant speed propeller

Performance

  • Maximum speed: 600 km/h (373 mph; 324 kn)
  • Cruise speed: 400 km/h (249 mph; 216 kn)
  • Range: 690 km (429 mi; 373 nmi)
  • Service ceiling: 9,800 m (32,200 ft)
  • Rate of climb: 28.33 m/s (5,577 ft/min) [31]
  • Wing loading: 200 kg/m2 (41 lb/sq ft)

Armament

 

HA-1112M1L "Buchon"

Spoiler

Hispano+Aviaci%C3%B3n+HA+HA+1112+C-4+Buc

development of 1954

 

one of the last variants of the plane, it had a new Merlin 500-45 engine of 1610hp and the same armament. the plane saw services in the spanish air-foces until 1965. those planes are sometime disguise as BF.109 for movies.

 

170 planes built

 

General characteristics

  • Crew: one
  • Length: 8.49 m (27 ft 10 in)
  • Wingspan: 9.92 m (32 ft 7 in)
  • Height: 2.60 m (8 ft 6 in)
  • Wing area: 16 m2 (170 sq ft)
  • Empty weight: 2,666 kg (5,878 lb)
  • Max takeoff weight:  3,330 kg (7,341 lb)
  • Powerplant:  1 x 1,193 kW (1,610 hp) Rolls-Royce Merlin 500/45 V-12 liquid-cooled piston engine
  • Propellers: 3-bladed Hamilton-Standard constant speed propeller

Performance

  • Maximum speed:  665 km/h (413 mph)
  • Cruise speed: 400 km/h (249 mph; 216 kn)
  • Range:765 km (475 mi)
  • Service ceiling: 10,200 m (33,465 ft)
  • Rate of climb: 28.33 m/s (5,577 ft/min) [31]
  • Wing loading: L 206 kg/m² (42.2 lb/ft²)

Armament

 

 

source

 

Monográficos Aéreos: H.A. 1112-M1L "Buchón" - Pedro Miguel Paniagua Magán

Fitzsimons, Bernard, ed. Illustrated Encyclopedia of 20th Century Weapons and Warfare (London: Phoebus, 1978), Volume 11

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano_Aviación_HA-1112

http://me109.airwar1946.nl/family/hispano.htm

http://simviation.com/fsdcbainmm.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20081016094929/http://www.xs4all.nl/~tozu/me109/foreign/109-spain.htm

https://flaps-aviacion-aviation-luftfahrt.blogspot.com/2010/08/hispano-aviacion-haa-1112-buchon.html

Edited by CaID
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Even though the Ha-1112 has been previously suggested,

 

Open for discussion. :salute:

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i am not sure if i want to see spain in the italian tree. the culture and language aren´t a reason for me. that spain was also a fascist country that "supported" germany and italy is a point, but thats all. but to save that planes to not be in the premium line i think i need to vote yes.

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On 15/06/2018 at 08:57, stefffff1871 said:

i am not sure if i want to see spain in the italian tree. the culture and language aren´t a reason for me. that spain was also a fascist country that "supported" germany and italy is a point, but thats all. but to save that planes to not be in the premium line i think i need to vote yes.

 

I answered a question concerning your same point of view in the other requesting HA-1112 post:

 

The participation of Spain was divided between the exiled republicans (previous civil war Spanish government) who helped France and Russia (in a minor scale of course) and the fascist nacionalist.

A point of matter is the importance of the Spanish republicans armoured unit, La Nueve. They were the first entering in Paris during its liberation.

In the other hand, there were some veterans nationalist Spanish pilots (Escuadrilla Azul) and soldiers from the Civil War who serve as volunters to germany as the Blaue DIvision. They had a lot of experience from 3 years of war in Spain.

 

Spain haven't officially participated the WWII, but its low participation was a high value for the "two-side". Anyway, not to mess the other nation tree, Spain should be in the "famous requested" minor axis tree with the rest of nation.

 

Apologies for my not 100% correct English.

Edited by H3llSp4WN_ESP
Some grammatical and expression errors.
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Agree to add entire line.

 

The logic of adding to Italian is not ideal, but OK given the limited nations and smaller Italian tree.

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