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HAL HF-24 Marut designer of Kurt Tank

You support this idea of HAL HF-24 Marut in the German line  

25 members have voted

  1. 1. do you support this idea of HAL HF-24 Marut?

    • Yes. I support this Suggestion.
    • No. I dont support this Suggestion
  2. 2. what level should it be?

    • future premium Tier-V German
    • This would be good on Tier VI on the German line
    • International Tech Tree
    • I said No


                               

                HAL HF-24 Marut

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 200px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-L18396,_Kurt         I hope the moderators understand my point of view on this airplane :salute:

       Kurt Waldemar Tank

 

A Bit of History Kurt Tank:

Kurt Waldemer Tank, was an aeronautical engineer who designed many aircrafts for Luftwaffee (Air force of Nazi Germany). He was famous for his work in Focke Wulf aircrafts that were used by Germany in WW II. Before leading the Marut project, he was working in the Madras Institute of Technology where APJ Abdul Kalam was one of his students. He finds a mention in Abdul Kalam’s book ‘Wings of Fire’. He was invited by Jawaharlal Nehru to design the aircraft. Nehru personally met Tank and inspected the progress of the design. It is important to note that Nehru had no moral inhibitions in accepting the services of engineer who had worked for Nazis!

The Aeronautical Institute later became the factory of military airplanes of Argentina, the Military Factory of Airplanes. There he designed the IA and Pulqui II based on the Focke-Wulf Ta 183 project, which reached the simulation stage at the end of the war. It was a state-of-the-art project for its day, but the project was canceled after Perón's fall in 1955. When President Juan Perón fell from power, the team of former Focke-Wulf dispersed with many moving to India ; Tank also moved there. He first worked as director of the Madras Institute of Technology, where one of his students was Abdul Kalam (later Kalam became president of India and designed indigenous satellite launch vehicles (SLV) and integrated guided missiles). Later, Kurt Tank joined Hindustan Aeronautics, where he designed the Hindustan Marut fighter-bomber, the first military aircraft built in India. The first prototype flew in 1961; the marut was retired from active duty in 1985. Tank left Hindustan Aeronautics in 1967 and in the 1970s returned to live in Berlin, relying on Germany for the rest of his life. He worked as a consultant for MBB. He died in Munich in 1983.

 
 
 

German engineers have influenced the design of post-war combatants around the world

 

Design Philosophy of the HF-24

The main concept of the aircraft was finalised by Tank perhaps even before his arrival in India. He had wanted to make the aircraft capable of considerable operation including supersonic flight to 1.5 Mach No. with manual controls. His other radical idea was to make the wing so strong that if it hit a tree, the tree would lose the battle. The structure separating the two engines was firm enough to prevent damage to the running engine if the other engine broke up due to any reason. The aircraft was pre-designed for a rear cockpit which could take a fuel tank or a multi-rocket launcher if no second pilot was to fly in it.

 

hf-24-structural-tests-of-front-fuselage

Structural test in progress. The entire structure was tested to very high loads, at least 50% higher than cleared for service.

 

Tank arrived in Bangalore in 1956 for the project and produced a first prototype by 1961. The production version of the aircraft was ready by 1967. India was the only country outside Europe and America which had achieved the capability to build its own jet at that point. Of course, one can say that the designer was imported. In total 147 Maruts were manufactured and inducted into IAF.

 

The major complaint I had against Tank’s design philosophy was to provide only one hydraulic system for powered controls. His idea was that up to Mach.0.95 it would be possible to fly in manual. To my question about what would happen if hydraulics failed at supersonic speed, he responded by saying that he had catered for it. He said that the pilot should use airbrakes to slow down and then once it was subsonic comfortably fly in manual. I pointed out that when an aircraft goes supersonic, its centre of pressure of lift moves back. This movement invariably causes a pitch down. Secondly, using airbrakes could also give a pitch change. Would the pilot be able to manage these after losing his powered controls. He remarked quite scathingly that I had been flying old technology aircraft.

Tank claimed that his design had wings with a low thickness/chord ratio (6%?). Thus going supersonic or reverting to subsonic would produce little or no pitch changes. I did not tell him that I had already flown aircraft with that ratio and they all behaved as I was apprehending. About the airbrakes, he said that he had placed them at right angle to the fuselage below, either at or very close to the centre of gravity. They would not cause any pitch change at all. The truth came home to roost later. One day (then) Winco Suranjan Das (Dasu from now onwards) flying at high speed at low altitude had failure of hydraulic up-lock of airbrakes and they dropped out due to gravity. The result was dramatic. The aircraft pitched up sharply. Dasu blacked out until he recovered his sight up side down, much higher at a low speed. The aircraft had recorded +10.2G. My other concern did not occur as we never had the engines to power the aircraft  to sustain any supersonic level flight. Dives are easy to manage.

Tank’s rather unusual and awkward feature was nose wheel oleo extension. When I asked him why he had added this strange operation, he wrote down two equations. He said that if no aid of lift was given to the aircraft, its ground roll for take off would be increased due to friction. If the nose was raised too much, the induced drag would be too high. The nose wheel extension set the aircraft at an angle which was optimum for the shortest take off run. To me the reasoning seemed unjustified as most aircraft were operated differently, starting level, raising the nose at the right moment and pulling it off for take off at the un-stick speed. He did not agree. This feature later became one of the reasons why the first attempted maiden flight ended in disaster.

hf-24-model-in-wind-tunnel1.jpg

HF-24 model undergoing wind tunnel tests at NAL, Bangalore.

 

During development, HAL designed and built a full-scale two-seater wooden glider to act as a flying demonstrator. Designated HAL X-241, this production aircraft replicates in terms of dimensions, control configuration and airfoil sections. Wheel brakes, air brakes, flaps, and retractable undercarriage were all powered using compressed gas, with enough gas storage on board for multiple per-fly performances. On April 3, 1959, the X-241 flew for the first time, having been launched by aero-tow behind a Douglas Dakota Mk.IV BJ 449. A total of 86 flights were made before the X-241 received considerable damage as the result of an accident of landing, after the nose chassis did not extend.


hf-24-first-prototype.jpg

The first Marut Prototype with its HAL number. Later became BR 462.

after-first-flight-of-reheated-hf-24-mk-
On June 24, 1961, the first prototype Marut made its first flight. It was powered by the same Bristol Siddeley Orpheus 703 turbojets that had powered the Folland Gnat, also being manufactured by HAL at that time. On April 1, 1967, the first production of Marut was delivered to the IAF. Although originally intended only as a temporary measure during the test, the HAL decided to power the production Maruts with a pair of Orpheus 703 unheated, which means that the aircraft could not reach supersonic speed. Although originally designed to operate around Mach 2, the Marut was, in fact, barely able to hit Mach 1 due to the lack of adequately powerful motors.

 

The IAF was reluctant to obtain a fighter plane only marginally superior to its existing fleet of Hawker hunters built by the British; however, in 1961, the Indian government decided to acquire 16 pre-production and 60 production Maruts. Only 147 aircraft, including 18 two-seat trainers, were completed from a planned 214. After the Indian government conducted its first nuclear tests at Pokhran, international pressure prevented imports of better engines or sometimes even spare parts for the Orpheus engines; This situation was one of the main reasons for the premature death of the aircraft. Marut has never realized its full potential due to insufficient energy. The Marut "was technically obsolete when it was first delivered in 1964." Other authors also commented on Marut's relative obsolescence at the time he came to production.

 

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marut-1.jpg

Specifications HAL HF-24 Marut

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Specifications:
Spoiler

Characteristics:
Crew: 1
Length: 15.87 m (52 ft 0¾ in)
Wingspan: 9.00 m (29 ft 6¼ in)
Height: 3.60 m (11 ft 9¾ in)
Wing area: 28.0 m² (301 ft²)
Empty weight: 6,195 kg (13,658 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 10,908 kg (24,048 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × Bristol Siddeley Orpheus Mk 703 turbojet, 21.6 kN (4,850 lbf) each
Performance:
Maximum speed: 1,112 km/h (600 kn, 691 mph) at sea level
Stall speed: 248 km/h (133 knots, 154 mph) (flaps and landing gear down)
Combat radius: 396 km [1] (214 nmi, 246 mi)
Service ceiling: 13,750 m(45,100 ft)
Armament:
Guns: 4× 30mm (1.18 in) ADEN cannon with 120 rpg
Rockets: Retractable Matra pack of 50× 2.68 in (68mm) rockets
Bombs: Up to 4,000 lb (1,800 kg) on four wing pylons

 

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Open for discussion. :salute:

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cool. a slightly beefier kind of Hunter? i can +1 that but only for the ITT. unlike with the Pulqui II where Tank and his team were in in exile and were in part continuing from their WWII german jobs, the team had partly split up and were now more like real contractors than repurposed operation ODESSA refugees.

 

this is more likely to see the BRITISH tree though as India was a commonwealth nation :P

 

can you please add a stat sheet though? i get that it can hit MACH 1 but that's about it.

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On 25/07/2018 at 23:25, Admiral_Aruon said:

cool. a slightly beefier kind of Hunter? i can +1 that but only for the ITT. unlike with the Pulqui II where Tank and his team were in in exile and were in part continuing from their WWII german jobs, the team had partly split up and were now more like real contractors than repurposed operation ODESSA refugees.

Well, German engineers after the Second World War influenced many post-war aeronautical engineering. Kurt Tank after the war already had in mind a new jet fighter project, so Kurt Tank was invited by Jawaharlal Nehru to design the aircraft. But Kurt Tank already had in mind his project of a new jet fighter, so he presented his HAL HF-2 4, India approved this project, giving rise to new jet fighter for India.

On 25/07/2018 at 23:25, Admiral_Aruon said:

this is more likely to see the BRITISH tree though as India was a commonwealth nation :P

This does not influence anything to go to the German tree

On 25/07/2018 at 23:25, Admiral_Aruon said:

can you please add a stat sheet though? i get that it can hit MACH 1 but that's about it.

Its top speed is 1,112 km / h. It failed to get a good speed by cause due to the lack of adequately powerful motors.

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On 01/12/2018 at 17:09, pieve said:

Well, German engineers after the Second World War influenced many post-war aeronautical engineering. Kurt Tank after the war already had in mind a new jet fighter project, so Kurt Tank was invited by Jawaharlal Nehru to design the aircraft. But Kurt Tank already had in mind his project of a new jet fighter, so he presented his HAL HF-2 4, India approved this project, giving rise to new jet fighter for India.

This does not influence anything to go to the German tree

Its top speed is 1,112 km / h. It failed to get a good speed by cause due to the lack of adequately powerful motors.

It did reach 1.1 Mach with the E-300 engine.

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+1

 

This and the HA-300 need to be in the German tree.

Edited by Borotovas
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On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 04:09, Borotovas said:

+1

 

This and the HA-300 need to be in the German tree.

This thing flew alongside Folland Gnats, it fits better with the British tree.

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1 hour ago, Mercedes4321 said:

This thing flew alongside Folland Gnats, it fits better with the British tree.

 

That would be oppressive and colonialistic to portray an Indian plane in the English tree. India became independent from the UK in 1947, and this plane first flew in 1961. Therefore this plane should be in the German tree, in honor of it's designer Kurt Tank.

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7 hours ago, Borotovas said:

 

That would be oppressive and colonialistic to portray an Indian plane in the English tree. India became independent from the UK in 1947, and this plane first flew in 1961. Therefore this plane should be in the German tree, in honor of it's designer Kurt Tank.

I'm going with what the plane historically served alongside. It served with Folland Gnats, de Havilland Vampires, and English Electric Canberras. You could also make a claim for the French/Russian trees under the same basis as Dassault Ouragans were also used at the same time, and eventually it served alongside Soviet jets like the MiG-21. It has never served alongside a German plane of any shape or form, and so it would be completely ahistorical to see it in the German tree.

Edited by Mercedes4321
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3 hours ago, Mercedes4321 said:

I'm going with what the plane historically served alongside. It served with Folland Gnats, de Havilland Vampires, and English Electric Canberras. You could also make a claim for the French/Russian trees under the same basis as Dassault Ouragans were also used at the same time, and eventually it served alongside Soviet jets like the MiG-21. It has never served alongside a German plane of any shape or form, and so it would be completely ahistorical to see it in the German tree.

 

What wars was India in where it served alongside the British at this time?

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32 minutes ago, Borotovas said:

 

What wars was India in where it served alongside the British at this time?

I'm talking about the planes the IAF used in conjunction with the HF-24. At the time it was mainly made up of British and French jets with a few utility aircraft from the US as well. Eventually, this was changed over to have several Soviet jets as well during the Marut's service life. Technologically the Marut was a mix of British and French tech, using ADENs and a modified Folland Gnat engine with a French rocket system for ground attack. The only thing German at all to do with the plane is that a German designer who wasn't working for the German airforce at the time designed it and then moved on a few years later. There is no reason to put it in the German tree when it would easily fit better into other trees in game. If an International tree was ever made it could fit there too.

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3 hours ago, Mercedes4321 said:

I'm talking about the planes the IAF used in conjunction with the HF-24. At the time it was mainly made up of British and French jets with a few utility aircraft from the US as well. Eventually, this was changed over to have several Soviet jets as well during the Marut's service life. Technologically the Marut was a mix of British and French tech, using ADENs and a modified Folland Gnat engine with a French rocket system for ground attack. The only thing German at all to do with the plane is that a German designer who wasn't working for the German airforce at the time designed it and then moved on a few years later. There is no reason to put it in the German tree when it would easily fit better into other trees in game. If an International tree was ever made it could fit there too.

Compared to UK or France, Germany doesn't have many options that are not copy paste. Also why put it in the UK tree if they have enough original planes? and, why in the UK tree in the first place? India was no longer under British control and the plane was designed by the Focke Wulf team. British and French tech were at that time the thing that almost all countries used. The engine for ex was also used on the G.91 or He 012 but that doesn't make it British. The ADENs also were the top market at that time, if they had other planes that used them why not having the same armament instead of choosing other? 
Serving with other planes doesn't mean anything. The Aero L-39 for example is serving with countries that operates american planes/helis or soviet era planes. In that context it should be added in the American tech tree and Soviet tech tree because it saw service with planes from both of them.

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6 hours ago, Mercedes4321 said:

I'm talking about the planes the IAF used in conjunction with the HF-24. At the time it was mainly made up of British and French jets with a few utility aircraft from the US as well. Eventually, this was changed over to have several Soviet jets as well during the Marut's service life. Technologically the Marut was a mix of British and French tech, using ADENs and a modified Folland Gnat engine with a French rocket system for ground attack. The only thing German at all to do with the plane is that a German designer who wasn't working for the German airforce at the time designed it and then moved on a few years later. There is no reason to put it in the German tree when it would easily fit better into other trees in game. If an International tree was ever made it could fit there too.

 

It seems oppressive.

 

Your assumption is incorrect, as it was not made to adhere to British standards, and it was not made to serve alongside British vehicles in particular.

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