pieve

Fiat 3000 / Mod.30

Fiat 3000 Mod.30  

87 members have voted

  1. 1. what level should it be for Fiat 3000 Mod.30?

  2. 2. What battle rating?



bandeira_italia.jpg

                    Italy

Fiat 3000 Mod.30

 

f3000-30.jpg

 

History of the Fiat 3000:

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A Renault FT 17 with Italian sauce

In 1917, after the first engagements of the British and French tanks in Flanders, the Italian headquarters decided to purchase a copy of the Schneider tank from France (No. 212). The armored vehicle was tested on rugged and mountainous terrain, corresponding to the future sector of operation in which this equipment would be used. The results obtained were considered satisfactory and the Italian army considered buying other copies. However, the negotiations were unsuccessful and the proposal to mount the vehicle in Italy also ended in failure.

In May 1918, France sent four light tanks Renault FT 17 to Italy:

    
two Girod round turrets made up of various cast and forged elements, armed to a 37-mm Puteaux pistol and to the other a Hotchkiss mod.14 machine gun replaced a second time by an S.I.A. ;
    
two with Berliet "omnibus" riveted polygonal tower armed with a Hotchkiss mod.14 machine gun, then replaced with a Fiat mod.14.

 
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http://www.italie1935-45.com/images/terre/materiels/vehicules_combat/carriL/fiat3000/1.jpg

FT 17 with Girod tower armed with a Puteaux gun of 37 mm registered "66947"

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http://www.italie1935-45.com/images/terre/materiels/vehicules_combat/carriL/fiat3000/5.jpg

FT 17 with Girod tower armed with a Puteaux gun of 37 mm registered "66947"

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http://www.italie1935-45.com/images/terre/materiels/vehicules_combat/carriL/fiat3000/9.jpg

FT 17 "66947" disassembled at the Ansaldo factory.

After the demonstration organized by magg. Bennicelli in Plaisance August 2, 1918 in front of the authorities, the decision was taken to license the Renault tank in Italy. The construction program was entrusted to a consortium of companies such as Fiat, Ansaldo, Breda, Vickers, Terni and Armstrong. The first order of 1400 copies provided for a monthly production of 200 tanks with a first delivery on May 1, 1919.

The sudden cessation of hostilities led to the cancellation of this initial order. In January 1919, faced with the difficulties of buying 60 FT 17 from Renault, the Italian War Ministry once again asked the national industry to build 150 tanks derived from Renault. If Ansaldo was initially approached, it was finally Fiat that returned the market, reduced to 100 copies, in April 1919.

The new tank, which would be an improved version of the Renault, was designed to meet the demands of fighting in the mountains. The prototype, begun in June 1919, was not completed until June 1920 and began to be tested in August of the same year. In January 1921, one of the Renault FT 17 was sent to Turin for comparative tests. Like the FT 17, the Fiat 3000 prototype had two front access hatches that were removed in the standard models.

 

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http://www.italie1935-45.com/images/terre/materiels/vehicules_combat/carriL/fiat3000/10.jpg

The prototype Fiat 3000 photographed in April 1923 in the trailer designed by ARET. It is recognizable by its two access hatches in front of the body.

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http://www.italie1935-45.com/images/terre/materiels/vehicules_combat/carriL/fiat3000/66.jpg

This photo taken in 1927 in Fort Tiburtino allows to appreciate the differences between the Fiat 3000 mod.21 (left) and the FT 17 armed with a S.I.A machine gun.

 

From car of assault mod.21 to mod.30
The vehicle, which received the official name of the Fiat 3000 mod.21 car, is similar to Renault, but was lighter and much faster. The tank has undergone a series of tests to determine the performances, the consumptions and the possibilities of employment. At the end of the tests, in 1923, the evaluation committee, chaired by Gen. Costa, gave a generally positive report on the tank's capabilities, while expressing reservations about the effectiveness of an armored vehicle armed only with machine guns, in this case two S.I.A. 6.5mm. She proposed mounting a 37mm quick firing pistol, a more appropriate weapon that could be used against other enemy tanks.

 

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The first Fiat 2000 Mod.21 series was distinguished by its short struts, hollow sprockets and solid track shoes.

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Fiat 3000 being assembled in the department of metallurgical industry and in the factory of Fiat.

 

The first modification to the armament in the spring of 1922 consisted of the installation of two 7.7 mm Lewis machine guns in the tower, a solution tested in two copies sent to Cyrenaica in 1925.

 

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Shot of unarmed Fiat 3000 B dated December 15, 1928

 

 

The great maneuvers of 1927 in Umbria and 1928 in Venezia-Juliana highlighted the need for tanks equipped with a weapon that works together with other armed machine guns. ARET was then commissioned to study together with Fiat the possibility of mounting a 37/40 pistol. This study led to the creation of a new version, whose factory designation was Fiat 3000 B. The prototype was tested during the great maneuvers of 1929 in Val Varaita, Piedmont.

The Fiat 3000 B was distinguished from the previous model by a tower adapted to receive the barrel (although the armament of two twin machine guns is still proposed), a more powerful engine, a modified rolling stock, the addition of a body in the crossing tail and a redesigned rear engine range. This new model received in 1930 the name of assault car Fiat 3000 mod.30. On January 1, 1929, the Army had ordered Fiat 28 copies armed with weapons and 24 armed with machine guns. The order of armed tanks was increased to 37, plus two armed with machine guns to convert. In total, as of February 3, 1933, 136 Fiat 3000 units were in service, all models included.

 

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The prototype of the Fiat 3000 B loaded in a trailer for its transfer to the ARET, where it will receive its weapons.

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Side view of the prototype of the Fiat 3000 B armed with a 37/40 pistol.

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Fiat 3000 mod.30 armed with a 37/40 weapon and equipped with an experimental device for tensioning the rails in front of the stringer.

 

 

Technical description

The Fiat 3000 Mod.21 retained the same general configuration as the Renault FT 17, a body based on propulsion rails and supporting an armed tower. The vehicle was distinguished externally from the French tank by a larger tower, armed only with machine guns, a modified landing gear and the rear of the redesigned box. The tank had a lower center of gravity, a more powerful engine (50 HP vs. 40 HP for FT) and a simplified gearbox. The engine was mounted transversely, while it was longitudinal in the FT, which allowed to reduce the total weight of the vehicle, simplifying the transmission and shortening the box.

Vanadium steel armor offered effective protection against machine guns and shrapnel. The box was watertight and the vehicle was equipped with a pump for the evacuation of any infiltration of water, which allows it to cross valleys of 1.1m. The armored interior was divided in two parts by a firewall that isolated the combat and steering compartment in front of the rear propulsion section.

 

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27.jpg

Rear view of a Fiat 3000 mod.21.

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Rear view of a Fiat 3000 mod.30 armed with machine guns. Note the redesigned rear shelf.

 

The driving position with controls and steering devices was located at the front, the joint protected by an iron gate passing under the floor. On the floor, the builder had four accommodations for tool storage, onboard equipment, spare parts and equipment needed to clean the equipment. The pilot, seated in front of the box in a folding seat, had two side slots and a central hatch protected with a slot. This hatch can be lifted and locked in the desired position to increase the visibility of the driver while traveling. The tank commander was sitting behind the driver in an adjustable height seat. He could, if necessary, launch the engine from inside the vehicle. In the central part of the tank compartment occupied by the tank commander, just below the tower, magazines of ammunition were found protected by the thickness of the side shields and rails.

 

The back of the box, which contained the engine compartment, was accessible through two panels located on the top of the rear deck. Inside was the four-cylinder in-line gasoline engine developing 45 hp at 1500 rpm and 50 HP at 1700 rpm (for mod.21), the ignition magnet (Dixie in mod.21 and Marelli in mod.30), the main fuel tank with a capacity of 90L in Mod.21 and 85L in Mod.30, the auxiliary tank, the cooling radiator and the transmission components.

 

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Fiat 304 four-cylinder gasoline engine.

 

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For the Fiat 3000 mod.30 armed with a 37/40 pistol, diverted to the right of the tower, the vertical draft range was -10 ° to + 20 °. The carrying capacity was 68 ammunition.

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Longitudinal section of the Fiat 3000 mod.30 showing the arrangement of the barrel and ammunition.

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Installation drawings of the 37/40 pistol.

 

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Semi-automatic drum 37/40.

 

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Side view of a Fiat 3000 mod.30 armed with a 37/40 weapon.

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Front view of a Fiat 3000 mod.30 showing the off-center weapon to the right of the tank.

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While the barrel is to the right, the dome is decentralized to the left, as are the access hatches.

 

The Fiat 3000 mod.30 for the command of the companies and battalions was equipped with a radio CR easily identifiable thanks to the rigid U-shape inverted mounted in the part superior of the tower and the antenna overlooking the track of the engine. The range of a few kilometers was sufficient for connections between armored units, but not sufficient for collaboration with artillery or infantry units. This equipment was found in some mod.21 at a time after 1935.

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Arrangement of the radio RF CR.

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Fiat 3000 mod.30 center radio participating in the parade concluding the great maneuvers of Sicily on August 25, 1937.

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Fiat 3000 mod.30 center radio in Ficarolo on October 3, 1938.

 

Car fogging (Smoke Tank)
In 1925, during the great maneuvers in the Canavese, a smoke version of the Fiat 3000 mod.21 was tested. It was fitted with two small cylindrical tanks containing sulfuric acid to which the exhaust could be sent. In contact with the acid, the latter generated a dense white smoke.

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First model of the Fiat 3000 mod.21 fogging during the great maneuvers of 1925. white.

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Fiat 3000 mod.21 fogging during the day of the chemical weapon at Rome-Centocelle in 1935.

 

The year 1933 saw the start of the decline of the Fiat 3000. The Italian industry was beginning to deliver new fast tanks to equip the new cavalry and bersaglieri armor units. With the appearance of the medium tanks M 11/39 in 1939, the Fiat 3000 was relegated to second line units. However, as of February 3, 1939, there were 127 copies left online, of which 90 were operational.

On June 24, 1938, according to Circular No. 8800, the Fiat 3000 received the new car names M 21, M 30, M 30 / c for the armed specimens and M 30 / r for those equipped with radio. Finally, Circular No. 3,400, of June 13, 1940, changed the denominations to L 5/21 and L 5/30.

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Parade on the plain of Gubbio at the end of the great maneuvers of August 27, 1932.84.jpg

Fiat 3000 mod.30 during a demonstration in Bologna in August 1936.

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Fiat 3000 parades to Salemi after the great maneuvers of Sicily on 25 of August of 1937.

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Fiat 3000 31 ° rgt. during a training course in 1937.

 

After the great maneuvers of the summer of 1939, the commander of CA Corazzato simply proposed to cancel the Fiat 3000, which was out of breath, both in terms of military potential and mechanical wear. . However, in September 1939, the Army decided to use the 50 Fiat 3000 operational from 99 existing to form the five cp. Carrist di Frontiera of GaF. The companies were formed on January 31, 1940, each with 3 platoons in 3 tanks each, plus a command tank, a total of 10 tanks per company.
 
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Fiat 3000 mod.21 on the Greco-Albanian front in 1941.

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Fiat 3000 mod.30 in Albania in 1941.

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Rare color photo of a Fiat 3000 mod.21 from the 1st cp. in the Balkans.

 

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Sources:

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  •     Gli autoveicoli da combattimento dell'Esercito Italiano, Volume primo (dalle origini fino al 1939), Nicola Pignato & Filippo Cappellano, Stato Maggiore dell'Esercito, Ufficio Storico, 2002
  •     Carri armati 1, In servizio fra le due guerre, Bruno Benvenuti & Ugo F. Colonna, Fronte Terra, Edizioni Bizzarri, 1972
  •     Italian light tanks 1919-1945, Filippo Cappellano & Pier Paolo Battistelli, Osprey Publishing, 2012
  •     I mezzi blindo-corazzati italiani 1923-1943, Nicola Pignato, Storia Militare, 2005
  •     Italian armoured vehicles 1940-1943 : A pictorial history, Luca Massacci, Roadrunner, 2013
  •     Motoriii !!!, Le truppe corazzate italiane 1919/1994, Nicola Pignato, GMT, 1995
  •     La meccanizzazione dell'esercito dalle origini al 1943, Tomo II, Lucio Ceva & Andrea Curami, USSME, 1994
  •     Corazzati Italiani 1939-1945, Nico Sgarlato, War Set n°10, 2006
  •     Andare contro i carri armati, L'evoluzione della difesa controcarro nell'esercito italiano dal 1918 al 1945, Filippo Cappellano & Nicola Pignato, Gaspari editore, 2007
  •     La difesa dei confini, Il generale Federico Baistrocchi e la Guardia alla Frontiera, Massimo Ascoli, Bacchilega Editore, 2014
  •     VII Settore G.A.F., Il Vallo Alpino nella conca di Cesana, Pier Giorgio Corino, Associazione per gli studi di storia e architettura militare, 2010
  •     Los medios blindados en la Guerra Civil Española, Teatros de operaciones de Andalucía y Centro 36/39, Artemio Mortera Pérez, Alcañiz Fresno's Editores, 2009
  •     Il Servizio Chimico Militare 1923-1945, Storia, ordinamento, equipaggiamenti, Tomo I & II, Marco Montagnani, Antonio Zarcone & Filippo Cappellano, Stato Maggiore dell'Esercito, Ufficio Storico, 2011
  •     Radiofronte 1935-1945, Le radiotrasmissioni militari sui fronti dell'Italia in guerra, Filippo Cappellano & Nicola Pignato, Museo Storico Italiano della Guerra, 2003
  •     Immagini dall'Archivio Fiat 1900-1940, Cesare de Seta & Carlo Bertelli, Fabbri Editori, 1989
  •     Le compagnie carriste di frontiera, Patrizzio Tocci, Storia Militare n°84, 2000
  •     Catalogo dei materiali del gruppo C (Servizi di artiglieria, genio, automobilismo e chimico), XLI Volume – XXXII Categoria – VII Fascicolo, Carro Armato mod.1930, Istituto Poligrafico dello Stato, 1939

 

Edited by pieve
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Wow, this is a really detailed and thorough suggestion.

 

The Fiat 3000 Mod. 30 seems like it's decent enough, especially considering it's a derivative of the Renault FT. According to its Wikipedia page, it could go 21 kph which, while very slow (especially for a light tank), is still on par with the French reserve tanks. On the other hand, the Fiat 3000 has way, way less armor, especially on the side.

 

What is the performance of the 37mm L/40 like? From what I could find, it was a Vickers gun called the "37mm vickers-terni l/40". At the very least, it's better than the 37mm SA18 guns that the French get.

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Before the introduction of the French GF I thought that this vehicle could be viable only as an event vehicle like the Po-2, but then I saw the French reserve tanks in action and now I consider the Fiat 3000 much more viable for the game.

 

Just compare it with the H35:

- the Fiat 3000 armor is thinner, but the H35 can be easily pierced from any range too;

- speed is the same, but the Fiat is much more nimble and can actually climb slopes;

- the gun is surely better than the SA18. I don't know how it perform, but considering that the Vickers-Terni 37/40 is a purposely built high velocity anti tank gun it must be a good gun for a reserve.

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12 hours ago, Tasty95215 said:

Wow, this is a really detailed and thorough suggestion.

 

The Fiat 3000 Mod. 30 seems like it's decent enough, especially considering it's a derivative of the Renault FT. According to its Wikipedia page, it could go 21 kph which, while very slow (especially for a light tank), is still on par with the French reserve tanks. On the other hand, the Fiat 3000 has way, way less armor, especially on the side.

 

What is the performance of the 37mm L/40 like? From what I could find, it was a Vickers gun called the "37mm vickers-terni l/40". At the very least, it's better than the 37mm SA18 guns that the French get.

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http://www.italie1935-45.com/images/terre/materiels/vehicules_combat/carriL/fiat3000/42.jpg

Well, this cannon is Italian Semi-automatic barrel 37/40 was considered best in its time

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CaID did find a penetration table for the Vickers-Terni 37mm, which was included in his Fiat-Ansaldo M11/39:

 

37 mm Cannone Vickers Terni L/40
Penetration of a shielding plate (mm) under a plunging angle of 30°
Ammo
Weight
Velocity
100 m
500 m
1000 m
1500 m
2000 m
Amor Piercing Mk.I
0.68 kg
640 m/s
47
35
28
22
16

 

The gun does seem to be pretty decent, considering that's solid AP (I don't think that's APHE, but I'm not certain) at a 30 degree angle. That chart is from this website: http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/2-Italy/02-MediumTanks/Ansaldo-Fiat/File-M11-39/2-Design.htm

Edited by Tasty95215
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On 01/06/2018 at 01:14, Tasty95215 said:

CaID did find a penetration table for the Vickers-Terni 37mm, which was included in his Fiat-Ansaldo M11/39:

 

37 mm Cannone Vickers Terni L/40
Penetration of a shielding plate (mm) under a plunging angle of 30°
Ammo
Weight
Velocity
100 m
500 m
1000 m
1500 m
2000 m
Amor Piercing Mk.I
0.68 kg
640 m/s
47
35
28
22
16

 

The gun does seem to be pretty decent, considering that's solid AP (I don't think that's APHE, but I'm not certain) at a 30 degree angle. That chart is from this website: http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/2-Italy/02-MediumTanks/Ansaldo-Fiat/File-M11-39/2-Design.htm

this is ammunition

37mm1.png

Edited by pieve
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5 hours ago, Valcour said:

+1 Give France something that good for a reserve tank and all would be well.

Nope this is an Italian modification of a French tank, it was built by Italy not bought from France and was fitted with Italian weapons, it cannot be a French tank

4 hours ago, *cartman400 said:

So wait, this is a Fiat 3000 with 2 cannons in 1 turret?

88.thumb.jpg.1ee6ba8d12c2f2b94b6092fba61

It seems so but I never saw anything like this before, so I think you should make a suggestion or at least a post asking for any info because this is the first time we see something like this. From what I can see the uniforms seem to be colonial ones so they should be Italians, make a post ask for any info this is sweet

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7 hours ago, *cartman400 said:

So wait, this is a Fiat 3000 with 2 cannons in 1 turret?

88.thumb.jpg.1ee6ba8d12c2f2b94b6092fba61

in fact this is two machine guns FIAT 14/35

39.jpg

 

 

40.jpg

Fiat 3000 armed with Fiat mod.14 / 35 machine guns.

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6.jpg

Different mod. 30s

The last know camouflage prior to the adoption of the new grey-green scheme was small dark green blotches on the red brown. The number plate was the new square type.

 

After 1937 the tanks started to be painted in the new dark grey-green (FS 34062), in common with most armoured equipment at this time. This medium green colour with a distinct grey tone has a semi-gloss finish when painted but soon can deteriorate to a matt and faded condition. In June 1940, the Fiat 3000 tanks in service were painted either grey-green or red brown; it appears that some tanks had very shaded grey-green sprayed on the red brown or retained their old camouflage of red brown and dark green. The Frontier Guard tanks kept the camouflage and markings of the other tank units, therefore grey-green with few differences.

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On 01/06/2018 at 06:14, Tasty95215 said:

The gun does seem to be pretty decent, considering that's solid AP (I don't think that's APHE, but I'm not certain) at a 30 degree angle.

 

On 01/06/2018 at 07:22, pieve said:

this is ammunition

37mm1.png

The 37/45 was a licence-built PaK36. The 37/40 used an APHE shell:

 

UtEhZsB.jpg

 

The explosive amount was 23g of ballistite, which is 60% more powerful than TNT. Therefore, the TNT equivalent is 37g :DD.

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On 01/11/2018 at 13:08, pieve said:

in fact this is two machine guns FIAT 14/35

39.jpg

 

 

40.jpg

Fiat 3000 armed with Fiat mod.14 / 35 machine guns.

Which caliber are this machine guns? Standard 7 mm or something like 12/13 mm? Because the barrels do seem to be big but could also be a 7 mm old model with a water cooled barrel that is of the same size

P. S just found out, 8 mm with 11mm of pen, unlucky for us but the 37 mm gun variant will be amazing

Edited by MadMax_ITA_

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found this FIAT 3000 flat turret with a 47mm or 37mm gun.

Posted ImagePosted Image

Edited by onemax9000
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On 18/12/2018 at 07:18, onemax9000 said:

found this FIAT 3000 flat turret with a 47mm or 37mm gun. 

Posted ImagePosted Image

In fact, they are machine guns of the Fiat 3000 mod.21
 
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On 02/11/2018 at 08:21, Cpl_Stalinium said:

The explosive amount was 23g of ballistite, which is 60% more powerful than TNT. Therefore, the TNT equivalent is 37g :DD.

In game, it is 23g of TNT.

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