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Removing the 4-person-per-team limit on top-ranking vehicles for a match - will this actually solve any of the problem with ceaseless uptiering?


On 10/03/2019 at 21:47, MH4UAstragon said:

@priam11, that’s fine & all to deal with things, but I’m trying to figure out the cause and possible remedies to how the matchmaker seems to almost constantly uptier everyone who’s not top tier. 

 

And the 4-man limit on top BR tanks seems to be the only thing that makes sense. The game tries to match people closer to their BR but literally can’t because of this limitation.

 

Im thinking this could do more harm then good with how MM seems to work.

It seems to prioritise fast queues over fairer queues.

 

Now, how many times have you hit 'to battle' and instantly got into a game and either been top BR or lowest BR in that match. For me it happens quite regularly. Its actually something im sort of curious about(insta queue). Vast majority ive been at one extreme, and ofcourse most of them would be at the lowest BR.

The fact that you can get a instant queue/matchup and end up bottom of the barrel to me shows that MM barely even tries to find a more even game. If it did i wouldnt expect to ever get a instant game and be bottom BR or top for that matter een though top is obviously favorable. Both situations its instantly putting you in a battle with a 1.0 spread with you at 1 extreme.

 

Now if the MM tried to put you in a game at your BR only, and then slowly expanded the range until it had a 1.0 spread then you would expect a delay before you could ever be put into a game where you were top or bottom BR. So to me it doesnt even seem to try. It seems to only look for whatever game needs players first that you are eligible for.

 

Now, due to the 4 person max top cap, yes, that means there will be more lower players needed to fill their games. But certain BRs are far more popular then others. If there are a bulk of players playing 6.7 but not so many at 5.7 at a certain time, then those 5.7s could be in games full of 6.7s non stop.

It could sort things out but it could also make things much worse. Uptiers could just be 10 times worse. you wont just be facing 4 1.0BR tanks higher, and 10 other players in various other equal - 0.7 higher tanks that you are relatively competitive to, but now you are against 14 6.7s in your 5.7 tank.

 

Its always going to be faster to make a match using the full 1.0 br spread. As it allows more possible players. That wont change with a cap removed. And since 'queue times' is always the reason to disallow any real change and spoken of time and time again by mods etc you have to expect that it will still be attempting to create matches fast. I doubt with the removal of the cap that games are all of a sudden going to have a smaller spread when it is slower to make a game that way then drawing players from the full 1.0 spread.

So someone is still going to be uptiered in pretty much all games. Its just now going to be so much worse.

 

 

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  • 4 months later...
23 hours ago, SilkMonger said:

Why not have entire teams of 10.0 players?  Wouldn't that lessen the need to uptier lower BR players?

 

It would and they're already doing it to an extent. I've played in matches where 8 of 10 per side were 10.0, but never where the whole team was 10.0.

 

It's a weird dilemma.  Is it better to have fewer uptiers overall because fewer people get pulled up into 10.0 matches, but knowing that when you do get pulled up it'll be against 8 or more 10.0s instead of just 4?

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On 13/09/2019 at 11:28, HalbKana said:

 

It would and they're already doing it to an extent. I've played in matches where 8 of 10 per side were 10.0, but never where the whole team was 10.0.

 

It's a weird dilemma.  Is it better to have fewer uptiers overall because fewer people get pulled up into 10.0 matches, but knowing that when you do get pulled up it'll be against 8 or more 10.0s instead of just 4?

You're missing my point.  If we have entire teams of endgame players, then nobody is getting "pulled up" in their matches, and there is less of a need for lower-ranked players to be pulled up into regular matches, because the endgame matches would take up a *lot* of the endgame players.

Edited by SilkMonger
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I'm not missing your point. I have yet to see a match that is all 10.0 on each side. I have seen matches that have 8/10 at 10.0 per side. To me that means that the MM is trying to do what you want, but it still prioritizes getting into games quickly over waiting for full teams of 10.0.

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I suspect it's not "getting into games quickly", but rather "pandering to those who spent to get to endgame", but I will admit I could be wrong.

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10 hours ago, SilkMonger said:

"pandering to those who spent to get to endgame",

 

What drives you to that conclusion? There are no 10.0 premiums. 

 

They could have done nothing and let the normal matchmaking continue with a cap of 4 10.0s in a match. That they have taken steps to have matches at effective BRs of 10.3 and 10.7 to get more 10.0s fighting each other is a good thing.

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My point was this: If there are enough 10.0 players to have matches were all of the players are that level, and they are instead putting a number of lower-BR players in each match, then they are feeding the endgame players, and lower BR players are being uptiered to do so.

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They should expand current top BR to 12.0 and decompress. At first queue times on top BR would be longer but players on lower BRs would progress a bit faster not being slaughtered by top BR vehicles and queue times would stabilize again.

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On 20/09/2019 at 11:14, SilkMonger said:

My point was this: If there are enough 10.0 players to have matches were all of the players are that level, and they are instead putting a number of lower-BR players in each match, then they are feeding the endgame players, and lower BR players are being uptiered to do so.

 

Because MM is so basic. It doesnt even attempt to firstly make a even matched game. Youd expect it to firstly try to make lets say a 7.0 game, small amount of times passes, then it expands based on what players there are by 0.3, then again etc until filling a game. Now im not saying it should take minutes at level, then minutes at expanded level etc as queue times may go way too long. But lets say the total time may take 2 minutes queue time for example to reach full 1.0 spread. 30 secs for flat 7.0 game, 30 secs till it expands 0.3br, 30 secs til 0.7br, 30 secs till 1.0 spread.(Spread can go up or down depending on others in queue, may only go up if your bottom of BR)

That would mean atleast 30 seconds minimum would have to pass before any spread in MM good or bad.

 

Now you can get instant queues quite often and a full 1.0 spread. That instant queue means there was 0 attempt at all to atleast try to find a more balanced game, instead Mm just went for the fastest possible outcome.

 

So chances are, there are more then enough 10.0br players on quite a few occasions, but all it would take is  a few players within 1.0 below to be queueing at once and MM will already of added some them to the possible player list forcing a spread.

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  • 2 weeks later...

MH4UAstragon:

 

If I understand you correctly this  would solve uptiering and thus should be a high priority. Thanks for starting this. I play 3.7 in the M4 series with short 75mm guns for stress relief as you described. I would include the 3.7 BR as one of your black holes - it certainly falls into your 4.3 black hole group in my experience. It has become a game wrecker for me. The maps are commonly populated, often densely, by 4.3 and 4.7 tanks that I can't beat or have real trouble beating.If I go to 76mm M4s I get thrown into even higher tiers and don't see many of the problem russian types eg t34 57s, I see other more formidable t34 variants etc etc. My only option is the M10 which is not that much fun. In my opinion the t34 variants beyond 1940 and the KV variants beyond the initial type are the worst offenders. The t34 57 in particular and the suped up KVs like the IB. I'm told they have their current BRs because they can't/don't do well at higher tiers...so I'm amazed the solution is to faciltate uptiering tanks they can easily kill with impunity? We also now have m4a4s that are mysteriously much better than the M4 series they were built from. It is definitely not fun. To be clear I'm not looking for world of tanks, or easy times. Challenge is good...but bouncing shot after shot and being a perpetual commuter back to the frontline is not. I'd settle for having their weaknesses actually built into the game ( everything that made the t34 vars destructable has been left out - ). Sadly Gaijin, in their indifferent and templated responses, doesn't seem to care about this. They told me to post on the forum...so here I am.

 

I may be the only one who feels this way...clearly the Russian tanks are popular with the Chinese tanks growing in the same direction. With no light at the end of the tunnel War Thunder will inevitably lose me as a player. Sad because technically the game works.

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I agree with Styliaan if I understand his last post. I don't think it even tries. I for one would gladly wait longer to get better balanced MM. In looking at some of my wwiilogs the match BRs often than not amaze me. Given the number of players in each group eg 3.3-3.7 vs 4.3-4.7, I wonder why we can't be lumped better ie 3's with 3's, 4's with 4's etc. I will also say part of my MM beef lies in the BR assigned to some vehicles ( mostly Russian but now some Chinese ) which IMO is too low or otherwise problematic ( too few vulnerabilities ).

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  • 4 weeks later...

Just reduce the uptier to +- .3. Main thing that I am bored of is for example playing british cold war tanks and always fighting german wwii. Its always the same. So now I take an 8.0 vehicle along with 7.3's to avoid this. Then I get uptier to 9. Why always against germans? 

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On 09/11/2019 at 09:22, *googlyeyedbeast said:

Just reduce the uptier to +- .3. Main thing that I am bored of is for example playing british cold war tanks and always fighting german wwii.

 

Those German players are tired of seeing you too...

 

On 09/11/2019 at 09:22, *googlyeyedbeast said:

Why always against germans? 

 

Because Gaijin.  The only place to get US/UK and Germans together is GFSB where it's always NATO vs Russia (and now China).

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7 minutes ago, HalbKana said:

where it's always NATO vs Russia (and now China).

Lel they are already testing Germany + Russia in SB

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  • 1 month later...
On 06/10/2019 at 07:54, Ontario_Born said:

MH4UAstragon:

 

If I understand you correctly this  would solve uptiering and thus should be a high priority. Thanks for starting this. I play 3.7 in the M4 series with short 75mm guns for stress relief as you described. I would include the 3.7 BR as one of your black holes - it certainly falls into your 4.3 black hole group in my experience. It has become a game wrecker for me. The maps are commonly populated, often densely, by 4.3 and 4.7 tanks that I can't beat or have real trouble beating.If I go to 76mm M4s I get thrown into even higher tiers and don't see many of the problem russian types eg t34 57s, I see other more formidable t34 variants etc etc. My only option is the M10 which is not that much fun. In my opinion the t34 variants beyond 1940 and the KV variants beyond the initial type are the worst offenders. The t34 57 in particular and the suped up KVs like the IB. I'm told they have their current BRs because they can't/don't do well at higher tiers...so I'm amazed the solution is to faciltate uptiering tanks they can easily kill with impunity? We also now have m4a4s that are mysteriously much better than the M4 series they were built from. It is definitely not fun. To be clear I'm not looking for world of tanks, or easy times. Challenge is good...but bouncing shot after shot and being a perpetual commuter back to the frontline is not. I'd settle for having their weaknesses actually built into the game ( everything that made the t34 vars destructable has been left out - ). Sadly Gaijin, in their indifferent and templated responses, doesn't seem to care about this. They told me to post on the forum...so here I am.

 

I may be the only one who feels this way...clearly the Russian tanks are popular with the Chinese tanks growing in the same direction. With no light at the end of the tunnel War Thunder will inevitably lose me as a player. Sad because technically the game works.

It must be a difference of servers or play times, because my experience could not be more different than yours.

 

To be clear: I play US server, so often a majority of US/UK players, East Coast hours, and since Frost started I've done over 100 RB matches each in US 3.7 and USSR 4.3, cause it seemed the easiest way on paper to complete challenges that didn't involve Italian suicide lunchboxes.

 

I found US 3.7 the easiest tier and nation I have ever played. A majority of those games were downtiers, where the M4A2 destroys, and all the uptiers just meant I would be in on a strong UK/US 4.7 side and I just rolled along and picked up leftovers from the Avenger/Firefly/Church VII/M6/M4-76 combos. I rarely needed a second tank, and almost never a third, although regular M4 and M10 give solid backup options.

 

Russian 4.3 on the other hand... Wow, that was rough. I would say a majority of my 100 games were 5.3 full uptiers, at which level a T-34/57 - SU85 - KV1 ZIS lineup has very little to contribute. They're perfectly okay vehicles, but they suffer in a full uptier as much as anyone else, and they all get clubbed by the Jumbo/76/M18 combo if they don't end up on the US side (which rarely happens on the US server due to the nation numbers). I certainly couldn't see an argument for uptiering any of them.

 

As a general point, I think people in RB tend to evaluate up-tiers on the basis of their own personal sutuation, and not what the given BR range does to the strength of their national side as a whole. If I get some harder opponents, but I stand to get some even strong allies in an uptier if other players pick and play smart, it can even be a net gain for me.

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Amazing post dude, I love this game but right now its super frustrating I'm bleeding money in top tier axis because of the Abrams Zerg rush and the KA50 and the lynx zoning us out of good defensive positions without us being able to counter it (no jets, outranged top tier AA's). People pls stop buying into BS pay 2 win and speak up against bad gameplay changes so all of us can have a more enjoyable experiencedc853b4.png?width=661&height=416

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  • 3 months later...
On 08/01/2020 at 05:15, Kritiqal said:

Amazing post dude, I love this game but right now its super frustrating I'm bleeding money in top tier axis because of the Abrams Zerg rush and the KA50 and the lynx zoning us out of good defensive positions without us being able to counter it (no jets, outranged top tier AA's). People pls stop buying into BS pay 2 win and speak up against bad gameplay changes so all of us can have a more enjoyable experiencedc853b4.png?width=661&height=416

this has been partially fixed

KA-50 is now no longer allowed to spawn at the start with ATGMs

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  • 8 months later...
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