Iron_physik

Issues on the lorraine 155 mle 50. (Information collection) Need help!

Hello all!

 

As some of you may know the Lorraine 155 mle 50 has currently some issues in WT with its Implementation.

 

 

Source Material:

 

  1. continuation of the Ammunition:
  • Measurements on photos and Gun manual:
Spoiler

•Angles in the manual of the BF50:

angles.png

 

 

 

•Photos:

gdfg-1.png

fgdfgsfdgd.png

Screenshot_20180425-185320.jpg%3Fwidth=8

Screenshot_20180425-190905.jpg

  • Ingame Statcard:
Spoiler

 

loor155.PNG

 

 

 

 

Full List of Issues, translated from the swedish documents by @MysteriousSwede


Weight:
 

Spoiler

 

In War Thunder, the weight is 30 tons. However, in the documents, it says 28 tons. This weight was in "battle condition", which meant what it weighed as it was sent/in combat.

fix:

change weight from 30t -> 28t

 

 

Speed:
 

Spoiler

Now, I know. This is very petty. BUT, the game says "60 km/h". But top speed was around 55 km/h, on good conditioned roads. 
The average speed was around 30 km/h, depending on the road.

fix:

Change topspeed from 60 km/h -> 55 km/h

 

The engine
 

Spoiler

This part isn't necessarily wrong, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
The Lorraine 155 mle 50 originally had an engine with a maximum horsepower of 450, at 2500 rpm. This later changed and got upgraded to a newer engine, called Maybach HL 230. This engine produced 650 horsepower at 2500 rpm. So I am guessing that this is the engine we are seeing in game, since it says 650 hp on the info card.

 

fix:

let it like this, Maybach Hl 230 engine was used on the tank.

 

Armor values
 

Spoiler

Now this is probably the most important part since it is completely wrong, unless the chassis in War Thunder is different from the one in the documents.
In War Thunder, the armor values are 30/20/20 & 30/20/20. However, in real life these values were different. It had 16 mm in the front, sides and back. On the "roof" and the underneath the tank, the armor thickness was 12 mm.
There is another section named "överbyggnad" which roughly translates to the superstructure (I think?). Where that is on the tank itself, I am not too sure. The thickness there was 10 mm anyway.

 

fix:

Change armor from:
Hull: 30 / 20 / 20 -> 16 / 16 / 16

Superstructure: 30 / 20 / 20 -> 10 / 10 / 10

Weapons
 

Spoiler

Oh, boy. The weapons. 
There is nothing wrong with the weapons themselves. However, what is wrong is the guidance. According to War Thunder, the Lorraine 155 mle 50 had a vertical guidance of 0/45 degrees. This is wrong.
The real values of the vertical guidance is -5/67. This is a huge difference, and will also make a difference on the battle field.
The horizontal guidance of the 155 mm is +-20 degrees as well. I am not sure if it is already in game, since I don't have the tank, but I thought I might say it just in case.
The MG151 also had a 360 degrees turn radius.

 

Fix:

155mm Gun elevation angles: 0° / 45° -> -5° / 67°

20mm mg 151/20 elevation angles: -8° / 20° -> -8° / + 55° to 65° (no exact calue known, we meausred it on photos)

Spoiler

Screenshot_20180425-190905.jpg

fgdfgsfdgd.png

 


 

 

Ammunition:

Spoiler

 

HE Ammunition of the Lorraine 155 50, documents with explanations. https://imgur.com/gallery/xdy48mw

and better source for OE 56

 

This imgur Album summs up what is wrong with the ammo, in short:

It could get 2 different extra HE rounds that have more filler compared to the one we have right now (M107 Deep Cavity with 6.6kg TNT)

 

Fix:

Add both or 1 of 2 shell types:

M107 Normal Cavity with 7.1kg Comp.B (or 9.1Kg TNT equivalent)

OE 56 with 8.1Kg to 9.05kg Comp.B Filler (or 10.5Kg to 11.8Kg TNT equivalent depending on source and RE factor used for Comp.B)

 

 

Amount of Ammo
 

Spoiler

 

The 155mm gun currently only has 28 rounds of ammo, the Swedish document says 30 rounds though.

 

The 20mm has in WT 250 rounds ammo. 

The Swedes state 250 rounds in magazine + 150 extra stored

 

Fix:

Change No. of rounds for the 155mm: 28 -> 30 rounds

Change No. of rounds for the 20mm: 250 rounds -> 250 + 150 in hull

 

 

 

 

Edited by Iron_physik

Smin1080p (Posted )

Hi The first image (showing the depression and angle) seems to be broken? You cant download/save it as a JPEG
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@Smin1080p

gdfg-1.png here try This.

 

 

 

Also, I may get acces to some documents of this vehicle.

Found someone who found smth in Swedish archives. 

Edited by Iron_physik

Smin1080p (Posted )

Thanks
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Swedish Test documents of the French Lorraine 155 50 (prototype 1a) Self propelled gun. https://imgur.com/gallery/bdCNzxl

 

Relevant info in comments under the pictures.

 

@Smin1080p you may wanna take a look at this ;)

I'm sadly currently not able to make the bug report myself, so it would be good if anyone else could do so.

Edited by Iron_physik
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12 hours ago, MaddDawg90 said:

Bravo on the docs there!! You've renewed my hope in the Lorraine 155 right there!! Cheers!

Good ;)

I searched for nearly 2 weeks on info on this thing. And I'm still not done. 

Currently I check on ammunition. 

 

 

22 minutes ago, Talks said:

 

 

Oh awesome^^

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only thing I don't like about this bug report is that after a month of completing task the speed is going to be reduced to from 60 to 55 kmh which is the right thing to do but hurts a little lol

but if the calculation I found was correct, the new weight 28 ton in the bug report should increase Hp/tonne to 26.97 from 25, so faster tank?? idk exactly if thats how it works

 

Also part of bug report says "weight of projectile" 43.1 kg,  Is it talking about the HE shell? because in game one is different.

 

HE.png.c245fb1c98e11805fea0359f41cebe2a.

 

 

Someone pls point all these changes out to them in a list or they'll miss it and wont be fixed for more than a year

Edited by Talks
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1 hour ago, Talks said:

only thing I don't like about this bug report is that after a month of completing task the speed is going to be reduced to from 60 to 55 kmh which is the right thing to do but hurts a little lol

but if the calculation I found was correct, the new weight 28 ton in the bug report should increase Hp/tonne to 26.97 from 25, so faster tank?? idk exactly if thats how it works

 

Also part of bug report says "weight of projectile" 43.1 kg,  Is it talking about the HE shell? because in game one is different.

 

HE.png.c245fb1c98e11805fea0359f41cebe2a.

 

 

Someone pls point all these changes out to them in a list or they'll miss it and wont be fixed for more than a year

The ammo listed in the report is likely the French OE56 round:

Screenshot_20180428-215957.jpg

It has the correct velocity for the Swedish document and weight.

 

I'm currently looking for more info on this round for a Bug report as well, because it would be a good improvement over the current round.

 

Alternative would be the M107 with a normal cavity. Right now we have a deep cavity model with 14.6 ib TNT 

The Normal Cavity has 15.4 ib comp. B this would equal to around 9.1kg TNT equivalent. I'm close in getting all info I need for a Bug report on this.

 

 

55 minutes ago, OddballE8 said:

If you need translation of those Swedish documents, I'll gladly help as a native Swedish speaker.

Yeah would be helpful if you can find any more usefull info reading through it.

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I was requested to help out with this stuff, since I am a native Swedish speaker and can easily read the documents.

 

Things I found that were incorrect (Some might've been said already):

  1. Weight:
    In War Thunder, the weight is 30 tons. However, in the documents, it says 28 tons. This weight was in "battle condition", which meant what it weighed as it was sent/in combat.
  2. Speed:
    Now, I know. This is very petty. BUT, the game says "60 km/h". But top speed was around 55 km/h, on good conditioned roads. 
    The average speed was around 30 km/h, depending on the road.
  3. Armor values
    Now this is probably the most important part since it is completely wrong, unless the chassis in War Thunder is different from the one in the documents.
    In War Thunder, the armor values are 30/20/20 & 30/20/20. However, in real life these values were different. It had 16 mm in the front, sides and back. On the "roof" and the underneath the tank, the armor thickness was 12 mm.
    There is another section named "överbyggnad" which roughly translates to the superstructure (I think?). Where that is on the tank itself, I am not too sure. The thickness there was 10 mm anyway.
  4. The engine
    This part isn't necessarily wrong, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
    The Lorraine 155 mle 50 originally had an engine with a maximum horsepower of 450, at 2500 rpm. This later changed and got upgraded to a newer engine, called Maybach HL 230. This engine produced 650 horsepower at 2500 rpm. So I am guessing that this is the engine we are seeing in game, since it says 650 hp on the info card.
  5. Weapons
    Oh, boy. The weapons. 
    There is nothing wrong with the weapons themselves. However, what is wrong is the guidance. According to War Thunder, the Lorraine 155 mle 50 had a vertical guidance of 0/45 degrees. This is wrong.
    The real values of the vertical guidance is -5/67. This is a huge difference, and will also make a difference on the battle field.
    The horizontal guidance of the 155 mm is +-20 degrees as well. I am not sure if it is already in game, since I don't have the tank, but I thought I might say it just in case.
    The MG151 also had a 360 degrees turn radius.

    That was all I could find. I hope I didn't do any mistakes or errors, and if I did I apologize :)
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1 hour ago, MysteriousSwede said:

I was requested to help out with this stuff, since I am a native Swedish speaker and can easily read the documents.

 

Things I found that were incorrect (Some might've been said already):

  1. Weight:
    In War Thunder, the weight is 30 tons. However, in the documents, it says 28 tons. This weight was in "battle condition", which meant what it weighed as it was sent/in combat.
  2. Speed:
    Now, I know. This is very petty. BUT, the game says "60 km/h". But top speed was around 55 km/h, on good conditioned roads. 
    The average speed was around 30 km/h, depending on the road.
  3. Armor values
    Now this is probably the most important part since it is completely wrong, unless the chassis in War Thunder is different from the one in the documents.
    In War Thunder, the armor values are 30/20/20 & 30/20/20. However, in real life these values were different. It had 16 mm in the front, sides and back. On the "roof" and the underneath the tank, the armor thickness was 12 mm.
    There is another section named "överbyggnad" which roughly translates to the superstructure (I think?). Where that is on the tank itself, I am not too sure. The thickness there was 10 mm anyway.
  4. The engine
    This part isn't necessarily wrong, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
    The Lorraine 155 mle 50 originally had an engine with a maximum horsepower of 450, at 2500 rpm. This later changed and got upgraded to a newer engine, called Maybach HL 230. This engine produced 650 horsepower at 2500 rpm. So I am guessing that this is the engine we are seeing in game, since it says 650 hp on the info card.
  5. Weapons
    Oh, boy. The weapons. 
    There is nothing wrong with the weapons themselves. However, what is wrong is the guidance. According to War Thunder, the Lorraine 155 mle 50 had a vertical guidance of 0/45 degrees. This is wrong.
    The real values of the vertical guidance is -5/67. This is a huge difference, and will also make a difference on the battle field.
    The horizontal guidance of the 155 mm is +-20 degrees as well. I am not sure if it is already in game, since I don't have the tank, but I thought I might say it just in case.
    The MG151 also had a 360 degrees turn radius.

    That was all I could find. I hope I didn't do any mistakes or errors, and if I did I apologize :)

 

Great job! 

 

And I have something to add!

 

 

6. Ammunition:

HE Ammunition of the Lorraine 155 50, documents with explanations. https://imgur.com/gallery/xdy48mw

 

This imgur Album summs up what is wrong with the ammo, in short:

It could get 2 different extra HE rounds that have more filler compared to the one we have right now (M107 Deep Cavity with 6.6kg TNT)

Alternatives are:

M107 Normal Cavity with 7.1kg Comp.B (or 9.1Kg TNT equivalent)

OE 56 with 8.1kg to 9.05kg Filler (unknown explosive as of now)

 

7. Ammo Count of the weapons

 The 155mm gun currently only has 28 rounds of ammo, the Swedish document says 30 rounds though.

 

The 20mm has in WT 250 rounds ammo. 

The Swedes state 250 rounds in magazine + 150 extra stored

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well thank god for the swedes!

 

so the lorraine 155 actually has depression up to -4 or -5? thank god.

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8 hours ago, Iron_physik said:

 

OE 56 with 8.1kg to 9.05kg Filler (unknown explosive as of now)
 


Greetings. First of all, thank you for doing all these researches on lorraine 155. I'm watching your posts since you posted first documents on imgur. And I want to say, even if it'll never get any of those changes - you tried and you already did more research than people were implementing it in game.

So, back to the topic. I've decided to make contribution too, and noticed there were no info on filler in 155-mm HE Projectile Model OE-155-56/69. And I found something :

https://ru.scribd.com/doc/25044683/Projectile-and-Warhead-Identification-Guide-Foreign

Here's the document describing wide range of projectiles. If you put in field "search document" 56/69 or go directly to page 280 you'll see detailed all-dimensional drawing of our projectile, and, what's the most important for us :

Filler:RDX/TNT 8.9 kg

Which basicly means it has composition B filler, since composition B is a RDX/TNT mixture widely used in projectiles, rockets and so on. Though we still don't know exact amount of filler, since it varies from source to source, we can safely say it's gonna be the in-game (sure, if we consider it's implementation) most powerfull HE round currently. Official RE factor (aka equivalent) is 1.33 for composition B, while in game we have ~1.31 (1.3125 is the highest in some rockets. You can check rocket's fillers on WT wiki page and calculate). In the worst case scenario it has 8.1 x 1.3 = 10.53kg tnt equivalent.  That's supossed to be far beyond 75mm penetration plus huge sphere of explosion and shrapnelling. And remember, that's in the worst case for this filler.

Edited by I_Dominator_I
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6 hours ago, Admiral_Aruon said:

well thank god for the swedes!

 

so the lorraine 155 actually has depression up to -4 or -5? thank god.

It has 5° depression

 

 

1 hour ago, I_Dominator_I said:


Greetings. First of all, thank you for doing all these researches on lorraine 155. I'm watching your posts since you posted first documents on imgur. And I want to say, even if it'll never get any of those changes - you tried and you already did more research than people were implementing it in game.

So, back to the topic. I've decided to make contribution too, and noticed there were no info on filler in 155-mm HE Projectile Model OE-155-56/69. And I found something :

https://ru.scribd.com/doc/25044683/Projectile-and-Warhead-Identification-Guide-Foreign

Here's the document describing wide range of projectiles. If you put in field "search document" 56/69 or go directly to page 280 you'll see detailed all-dimensional drawing of our projectile, and, what's the most important for us :

Filler:RDX/TNT 8.9 kg

Which basicly means it has composition B filler, since composition B is a RDX/TNT mixture widely used in projectiles, rockets and so on. Though we still don't know exact amount of filler, since it varies from source to source, we can safely say it's gonna be the in-game (sure, if we consider it's implementation) most powerfull HE round currently. Official RE factor (aka equivalent) is 1.33 for composition B, while in game we have ~1.31 (1.3125 is the highest in some rockets. You can check rocket's fillers on WT wiki page and calculate). In the worst case scenario it has 8.1 x 1.3 = 10.53kg tnt equivalent.  That's supossed to be far beyond 75mm penetration plus huge sphere of explosion and shrapnelling. And remember, that's in the worst case for this filler.

Oh wow.

THANKS ALOT. This info is HUGE. :D

You made my day!

 

 

 

Screenshot_20180430-131314.jpg

Screenshot_20180430-131428.jpg

 

 

Edited by Iron_physik
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Nice work guys, I think a second bug report there needs to be a second bug report for the correction of the HE shell/another HE shell after all necessary documents are gathered.

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48 minutes ago, Talks said:

Nice work guys, I think a second bug report there needs to be a second bug report for the correction of the HE shell/another HE shell after all necessary documents are gathered.

 

Well I can't still write in the bug report section.

 

Maybe you can write it.

All info you need is in this thread, I will update the OP to summarise the data.

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On 29/04/2018 at 9:07 AM, Malevich_au said:

Big thank for you, comrade!

 

On 28/04/2018 at 7:54 PM, Iron_physik said:

Good ;)

I searched for nearly 2 weeks on info on this thing. And I'm still not done. 

Currently I check on ammunition. 

 

 

Oh awesome^^

thanks i hope it will be usefull

 

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22 hours ago, Iron_physik said:

Ok, I updated my Opening post to list EVERY issue
 


I'm afraid you didn't  understand me quite correctly. 10.53 TNT equivalent was just given as an example. Real ammount depends on what source we consider "correct". If it's french documents about lorraine 155, it would be 8.1 x 1.3125 = 10.63125. If we talk about N.E.W of 9.05 that you found it should be 9.05 x 1.3125 = 11.878125. Or, if we think info about amount is correct in documents that I found It's gonna be 8.9 x 1.3125 = 11.68125.

My opinion is we should take 8.9 kg of filler that equals 11.68125 TNT, mostly because it's from the same source that we got info about composition from. Also remember, RE facor in warthunder is lower than the actual one for comp. B. (1,3125 WT vs 1.33 IRL).

We can also take middle value of all three by adding all three numbers and dividing by three. (8.1 + 9.05 + 8.9) / 3 = 26.05 / 3 ~ 8.683 kg of filler (comp. B) ~ 11.396875  (TNT equvalent).

Edited by I_Dominator_I
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18 hours ago, I_Dominator_I said:


I'm afraid you didn't  understand me quite correctly. 10.53 TNT equivalent was just given as an example. Real ammount depends on what source we consider "correct". If it's french documents about lorraine 155, it would be 8.1 x 1.3125 = 10.63125. If we talk about N.E.W of 9.05 that you found it should be 9.05 x 1.3125 = 11.878125. Or, if we think info about amount is correct in documents that I found It's gonna be 8.9 x 1.3125 = 11.68125.

My opinion is we should take 8.9 kg of filler that equals 11.68125 TNT, mostly because it's from the same source that we got info about composition from. Also remember, RE facor in warthunder is lower than the actual one for comp. B. (1,3125 WT vs 1.33 IRL).

We can also take middle value of all three by adding all three numbers and dividing by three. (8.1 + 9.05 + 8.9) / 3 = 26.05 / 3 ~ 8.683 kg of filler (comp. B) ~ 11.396875  (TNT equvalent).

Moderator in that report ask:
image.png.06fbeba2bf94f9215bc319e3ad0111

My answer is correct?
image.png.f76f7a52f310f3fa83f7a3169e719b

image.png.a762b8ba11642dd5d15987650ad008

image.png.be06f901a34ed228afb748ce506b76

image.png.6f9a5a779a768c4538d1c7acbb6a81

image.thumb.png.2c35ec38a8eb01fa5f923ec2

Edited by Malevich_au
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