TheAntiAirGuy

APFSDS bouncing off Armor in War Thunder

So, I came up with this topic because I myself was studying mechatroniks with a focus on overall modern armaments industry, more precisly on modern Armor, I´ve been "working" for Krauss-Maffei Wegmann GmbH & Co. KG for one semester as a part of a University Project. Now I´m in the Austrian Army doing my military service and I´ve been able to work on a Leopard 2 modell A4 aswell. 

 

In one of the lectures we got into a pretty funny discussion if the Austrian Army would be able to defend itself against anyone the country is bordering, so this conversation was going on until we reached a point where we were talking about tanks and my heart made a big jump, because I love tanks, ... Story short, we talked about ammunition types and it was mentioned that fast travelling shells, especially modern APFSDS (Armor-Piercing-Fin-Stabilized-Discarding-Sabot) (Note: I am talking about APFSDS and not HEAT), pretty much cannot bounce anymore. That´s something I´d love to see in War Thunder.

 

This caught my attention and I started reading up on it. And honestly, I doubt that American, German Engineers and many others are stupid enough to build obvious shottraps on their tanks. Just look at the Leopard 2A5s turret 

 or the steep angle of the upper hull plate on many modern tanks 

 where the shell could easily bounce off into the turret. (Like it does in War Thunder)

In Real Life this just doesn´t work anymore. It did in the early days, esxpecially in WW2, but the most common shells used were plain AP (Armored Piercing) or AP shells with High explosive fillers and those had a muzzle velocity at around 800 m/s, APCR (Armor-Piercing-Composite-Rigid) shells, which were very rare in WW2, were usually flying at around 1000 m/s, this means that the Force (F*t) is smaller than on todays tank shells, this gives the conventional AP round more time to lose the energy on an angled surfuce and thus not beeing able to embed itselfe into the armor and simply just slideing off the armor or not penetrating it. Also to add is the fact the the peterator at the front of an AP round has a much larger surface than an APCR round or APFSDS round and the materials used were of worse quality and/or different thus making them softer and more likely not to pen. 

So looking at most of APFSDS shells in the game: They reach a muzzle velocity of about 1500 m/s up to 1850 m/s, the matarials used for most of the rounds are better quality/different steels and in many cases already composites (usually Tungsten alloys), like the 3BM15, 3BM22, M774, L23, DM13, ... Just something for you to image what a brute force these shells have while impacing on a tanks armor: Let´s take the M774 round from the M1s 105mm M68A1 gun. To make maths quick lets say the Penetrator rod is 10kg heavy, the muzzle velocity is at around 1500 m/s. E=1/2*mv² ... we get, to round it off, 11 MegaJoules. That´s a 11 Ton vehicle hitting you at about 44 m/s or 160 kp/h and all of this on a surface of a very thin needle, the tip of a convetional APFSDS shell has about 40-20mm. 

Turret front of a Leopard 2 A5

Spoiler

2mqw2z5.jpg

Hull side of the M1

Spoiler

6d50e013b01d3ad58642a5f4734695d2.jpg

WW2 AP round

Spoiler

Hornisse-3

Modern APFSDS round

Spoiler

Japanese_APFSDS.jpg

So what does happen in reality if an APFSDS shell hits a tanks angled surface.

-It will just penetrate the tank and obliterate everything inside of it

-It will shatter on impact, or

-It will embed itself in the armor but without penetrating it 

(There still is the chanche it might bounce, especially on older APFSDS rounds made out of steel only, but this is a very, very rare sight)

 

Jonathan Davi, studied Military & Fighter Aircraft at Academia Da Força Aérea Brasileira (2017)

"APFSDS rounds are relatively thin, LONG rods, with a pointy end. That pointy end is supposed to concentrate ALL of it’s energy on a small point of impact.

APFSDS don’t bounce off because they are built in such a way that they deliver that energy even at extreme angles. It’ll shatter before it’ll ever bounce off the armor."

 

 

 

Edited by TheCrackGamer420
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You want game improvements over shiny new tanks into an era the game and engine isn’t ready for? Hahaha to the gulag with you!

 

Serious note I agree fully with the OP there needs to be a massive redo on in game mechanics but that isn’t how the F2P market works sadly. It’s more about pushing new content than fixing things.

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loose.thumb.jpg.904c2391327e5a6a7549cb04

Off topic but here is the snail job about T-64B ufp recently

For gaijin armor buff is better armor + heroe of soviet union driver

Nice sneaky buff

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8 minutes ago, WOPPER said:

ive bounced of a bagelpanzer 57 ufp point blank with t64b that should never happen

 

Sounds about right :D

 

The best bounce I’ve had has been from the t62, shot at a M48 moving from right to left across my screen, hit the under side of the barrel that caused it to ricochet down into the UFP resulting in a kill for me. I lol’d as I could imagine the salt.

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8 hours ago, CotorShas said:

APFSDS bouncing off angled 15mm armour seems to be something of a theme in this game with L7 APFSDS bouncing off Obj 906s and such.

at that point i think the shell is hitting the armor penetrating and re-exiting

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Dont know, what i do know is i just got OHK from a chally1 in my T64B he shot me from over 1400m though the UPF right side ( not weak spot) and it went straight though.. no bounce... i was not angled and it was on flat ground ??? Chally1 apdsfs buffed? 

Edited by *Fonz_408
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Agreed this would be nice to see in game. APFSDS really wouldn't bounce, the info in OP is correct. 

It would be a double edged sword, as bouncing off of light vehicles should become impossible, but at the same time those random lucky kill where you bounce off a shot trap/gun barrel will also no longer happen. I actually think both these changes are an improvement, as there's nothing I like less than random luck in games. 

40 minutes ago, *Fonz_408 said:

Dont know, what i do know is i just got OHK from a chally1 in my T64B he shot me from over 1400m though the UPF right side ( not weak spot) and it went straight though.. no bounce... i was not angled and it was on flat ground ??? Chally1 apdsfs buffed? 

T-64b has closer to 417mm UFP than 440mm, as the x-ray armour viewer is wrong (although not as wrong as on other tanks, such as chally 1). Challenger  fires ammo theoretically capable of penetrating it, although random bounciness of t-64s often causes it not to.

Edited by Dantheman66
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59 minutes ago, Dantheman66 said:

T-64b has closer to 417mm UFP than 440mm, as the x-ray armour viewer is wrong (although not as wrong as on other tanks, such as chally 1). Challenger  fires ammo theoretically capable of penetrating it, although random bounciness of t-64s often causes it not to.

Still in saying that, i didnt think any round could penn the T64B UFP past 1000m's ?? 

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Yesterday, I had a situation where my RISE P, firing M735, bounced off the side hull (unagled mind you) of a Leo 2K from less than 50m. I'm inclined to say either the Germans had force field technology built into their Leos, or gaijin's havin a laugh.

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2 hours ago, Dantheman66 said:

Agreed this would be nice to see in game. APFSDS really wouldn't bounce, the info in OP is correct. 

It would be a double edged sword, as bouncing off of light vehicles should become impossible, but at the same time those random lucky kill where you bounce off a shot trap/gun barrel will also no longer happen. I actually think both these changes are an improvement, as there's nothing I like less than random luck in games. 

 

And i think that GJ did something with the bounce-mechanic of APFSDS. In the last few matches i had couple of weirdo shots that the APFSDS bounced around inside of the tankhull like a bouncy ball. o_0

particular when the rod entered in a high angle of attack. 

I xxxx T10M bounced my APFSDS from Leo1A1, i mean wtf... 

Edited by Rawday
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3 hours ago, Rawday said:

 

And i think that GJ did something with the bounce-mechanic of APFSDS. In the last few matches i had couple of weirdo shots that the APFSDS bounced around inside of the tankhull like a bouncy ball. o_0

particular when the rod entered in a high angle of attack. 

I xxxx T10M bounced my APFSDS from Leo1A1, i mean wtf... 

There's always a degree of randomness in this game. A couple games back I bounced off an is-3 UFP with APFSDS. It's just the way rounds are modelled as they hit armour. t-10 has areas where armour overlaps ect which could add up to more than 400mm at the right angle, and the fact that shells are modelled like pixels mean they will bounce off these small points in the armour. Other times it's just because of randomness with netcode or ping. 

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On 14.4.2018 at 10:51 PM, tarein said:

Yesterday, I had a situation where my RISE P, firing M735, bounced off the side hull (unagled mind you) of a Leo 2K from less than 50m. I'm inclined to say either the Germans had force field technology built into their Leos, or gaijin's havin a laugh.

Those Leopards sure have some kinda forcefield ;) 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited by TheCrackGamer420
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On 16/04/2018 at 12:09, TheAntiAirGuy said:

Those Leopards sure have some kinda forcefield ;) 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Advanced modern Leo that has some soft kill active protection system on it ;)

APS testing confirmed

Edited by Taeblamees

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On 14/04/2018 at 23:51, tarein said:

Yesterday, I had a situation where my RISE P, firing M735, bounced off the side hull (unagled mind you) of a Leo 2K from less than 50m. I'm inclined to say either the Germans had force field technology built into their Leos, or gaijin's havin a laugh.

 

Could say the same about Bradleys hit it with an 120mm round from my Leo A1A1/L44 DM13 it bounced off 

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