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Centurion mk3 and fv4202 needs to got back down to 6.3


3 minutes ago, Phelpsiee said:

Sorry, those tanks had 70%+ winrates. If this is not the indicator of a needed change, then I don't know what is..

It all seems to me we do like having a double standards. When some USSR tank overperforms - we shout uptier. 

Yet when it's something from our tank tree, we bite, we scratch, we suddenly do not see reason. 

 

That's my observation. 

 

Pros:

lower tanks can breathe now, thanks to the move

 

Cons:

black hole at 6.3

 

Neutral:

6.7 sucks for every nation, because it gets sucked to 7.3 - 7.7 all the time, so it's not like UK is in it alone

 

 

All of the APDS and APHE talk is useless, because nothing changes with BR movement for those. If APDS were fixed, oh boy, would that be the days - L7 tanks above T-54s (Mk10, Vickers).

I wish I could see those days..

 

6.7 is a prime example of why the BR system is a complete failure.

 

While it would be nice for the game to be fixed I doubt it will happen within my life time as things currently stand im done with war thunder and Gaijin as a whole.

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8 hours ago, moz2003 said:

thats the point why should the british always have to aim for the gunner and be forced to use APDS no other nation is forced to used upgraded ammo becuase the stock ammo is good enough.

 

Reverse speed of the tank and turret treverse is of no use if you cant kill the target you aim at in one go as you are sat there like a sitting duck for some other enemy to ohk as you have had to brake cover in order to get a shot that is going to disable the gunner and driver oh wait im joking British AP/ APDS dont do that do they so your forced to pin point crew which 90% of the time takes more than two shots.

 

Also Stabilizers are only good when the hull is moving other than that they have no bearing on the gun when still and hull down, reload speed is only good if your able to actually hit and KILL the gunner which oh wait british ammo just doesnt do unless on the odd blue moon.

 

And to top it of all other nations take one shot at you if they dont kill you they have knocked out half your crew to the point where you are just sat there waiting for the final shot 

 

 

i have no issues aimming with germans, russians and usa dont play other nations as of yet seem to be able to get many kills with all of those more so russians

You are describing ammo-issues, not tank-issues. As T-44 is trolly as hell when it comes to british ammo and this one is sitting at 6.3 out of your argument we would have to put FV and Mk3 to 5.0 in order to avoid T-44, Kingtiger etc. ou mentioned having problems with a Panther? Well, that sits on 5.7, we need to avoid that, so the logical consequence would be FV and Mk3 to downtier to 4.3 in order to avoid them. They _might_ struggle with the KV-1 Zis 5 at 4.3, so better downtier FV and Mk3 to 3.0 in order to avoid KV-1 Zis 5.

 

So, with your argument we end up with these quite modern tanks with stabilizers, good armor, ok'ish mobility at BR 3.0. OR: we fix the ammo and leave them at 6.7 where they belong.

 

Where i fully agree with ou is with the modes: in AB british tanks from 3.3 onwards are a pain in the a.. and mostly useless due to their ammo doing nothing. In RB though it's a quite a different story as there you can often get a 2nd or 3rd shot off.

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10 hours ago, Ghost_Rider12 said:

6.7 is a prime example of why the BR system is a complete failure.

 

While it would be nice for the game to be fixed I doubt it will happen within my life time as things currently stand im done with war thunder and Gaijin as a whole.

Gaijin should halt all devellopment on new vehicles for a month, and go sort this out. the current system is a mess that benefits noone and renders any tank of 5.7 or above either bloody OP if downtiered and borderline unplayable if uptiered even by the slightest

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9 hours ago, Dodger79 said:

You are describing ammo-issues, not tank-issues. As T-44 is trolly as hell when it comes to british ammo and this one is sitting at 6.3 out of your argument we would have to put FV and Mk3 to 5.0 in order to avoid T-44, Kingtiger etc. ou mentioned having problems with a Panther? Well, that sits on 5.7, we need to avoid that, so the logical consequence would be FV and Mk3 to downtier to 4.3 in order to avoid them. They _might_ struggle with the KV-1 Zis 5 at 4.3, so better downtier FV and Mk3 to 3.0 in order to avoid KV-1 Zis 5.

 

So, with your argument we end up with these quite modern tanks with stabilizers, good armor, ok'ish mobility at BR 3.0. OR: we fix the ammo and leave them at 6.7 where they belong.

 

Where i fully agree with ou is with the modes: in AB british tanks from 3.3 onwards are a pain in the a.. and mostly useless due to their ammo doing nothing. In RB though it's a quite a different story as there you can often get a 2nd or 3rd shot off.

It is not just an ammo issue these tanks are just in the wrong BR all together as you are constantly dragged into a 7.0 matches which they just cant compete one shot knocks out gunner and driver from 90% of all it faces in 6.7 and above leaving you a sitting duck when you can sit a fire 4-5 and still die from one shot.

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I don't think that the FV and Mk3 are horrible at 6.7, but I didn't have them when they were 6.3. Also, the repair costs for both tanks are way too high especially the FV. I think the BR change was enough to so call "balance" the tanks. I also think that the BR system needs to be fixed, you shouldn't be up-tiered all the time. If Gaijin were to actually fix the BR system, people would complain less about other tanks being OP and wouldn't be up-tiered all the time. Sure the queue times might be a little longer but they would have less people complaining about tanks being OP, if they were fighting at their BR most of the time.

Just my thoughts

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1 hour ago, moz2003 said:

It is not just an ammo issue these tanks are just in the wrong BR all together as you are constantly dragged into a 7.0 matches which they just cant compete one shot knocks out gunner and driver from 90% of all it faces in 6.7 and above leaving you a sitting duck when you can sit a fire 4-5 and still die from one shot.

Which tank does _not_ suffer from being uptiered? "Can't compete at 7.0" is an argument against a BR of 7.0 and not against 6.7. And i suffer badly from uptiers myself with these tanks currently. But i blame the ammo, not the tank. Thanks to stabilizer and quite fast turret traverse i can get a shot off first most of the times, so the tank is functioning very well, but a hit does to few far too many times. So, it's an ammo-issue.

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3 hours ago, Dodger79 said:

Which tank does _not_ suffer from being uptiered? "Can't compete at 7.0" is an argument against a BR of 7.0 and not against 6.7. And i suffer badly from uptiers myself with these tanks currently. But i blame the ammo, not the tank. Thanks to stabilizer and quite fast turret traverse i can get a shot off first most of the times, so the tank is functioning very well, but a hit does to few far too many times. So, it's an ammo-issue.

think you need to re read what i put 

It is not just an ammo issue these tanks are just in the wrong BR all together as you are constantly dragged into a 7.0 matches, which they just cant compete one shot knocks out gunner and driver from 90% of all it faces in 6.7 and above leaving you a sitting duck when you can sit a fire 4-5 and still die from one shot.

 
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On 4/2/2018 at 4:13 PM, Phelpsiee said:

Sorry, those tanks had 70%+ winrates. If this is not the indicator of a needed change, then I don't know what is..

It all seems to me we do like having a double standards. When some USSR/GER tank overperforms - we shout uptier. 

Yet when it's something from our tank tree, we bite, we scratch, we suddenly do not see reason. 

 

That's my observation. 

 

Pros:

lower tanks can breathe now, thanks to the move

 

Cons:

black hole at 6.3

 

Neutral:

6.7 sucks for every nation, because it gets sucked to 7.3 - 7.7 all the time, so it's not like UK is in it alone

 

 

All of the APDS and APHE talk is useless, because nothing changes with BR movement for those. If APDS were fixed, oh boy, would that be the days - L7 tanks above T-54s (Mk10, Vickers).

I wish I could see those days..

So when are all panzer 4s goint to 4.3 and up?

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Every nation at that br has larger guns than the 20 pdr as well as much thicker armour so also the 20 pdr is not even performing as it should 20pdr AP and Apds should go right through T34 and T29s mantlet according to the stats but no, bounces and this is not an ammo issue.

Edited by moz2003
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6 hours ago, moz2003 said:

Every nation at that br has larger guns than the 20 pdr as well as much thicker armour so also the 20 pdr is not even performing as it should 20pdr AP and Apds should go right through T34 and T29s mantlet according to the stats but no, bounces and this is not an ammo issue.

"Ammo does not work" is NOT an ammo-issue? Before it just seemed to be a lack of understanding, but now it's ridicolous.

 

Just imagine a FV/Mk3 with working ammo that is capable to ohk enemies at 6.7 easily and also ohk or 2shot all the way up to 7.7. According to you these tanks shall still be 6.3 because of the vehicle itself. But i am really failing to see your point here if you leave the ammo out. Because it can be killed? Heck, of course it can be, even heavies can so why shouldn't a medium?

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On 2/4/2018 at 11:39 AM, Ghost_Rider12 said:

The Fv4202 and the Mk.3 Centurion are now victims of BR compression and are not worth playing what so ever anymore until they either get correctly performing APDS or the dev's redo all BR's 

 

 ^ This, basically.

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5 hours ago, Dodger79 said:

"Ammo does not work" is NOT an ammo-issue? Before it just seemed to be a lack of understanding, but now it's ridicolous.

 

Just imagine a FV/Mk3 with working ammo that is capable to ohk enemies at 6.7 easily and also ohk or 2shot all the way up to 7.7. According to you these tanks shall still be 6.3 because of the vehicle itself. But i am really failing to see your point here if you leave the ammo out. Because it can be killed? Heck, of course it can be, even heavies can so why shouldn't a medium?

Without the tank and gun the ammo is nothing but a lump of metal and does nothing so it is not a ammo issue in the regards to solid shot or apds (although in this game the ammo has no weight values to them so) 

 

armour compared to those at 5.7 is weak as every tank negates the slope, reverse speed of the fv4202 is a joke.

guns that shouldn't pen do in the most stupid of places.

 

Im sorry but these tanks are just not depicted in this game as true and historically accurate for gods sake the cent mk3 took on T54s in the Golan Heights and won when the the m60s got humped. if they were up to stratch in regards to the thier armour ie the slope and the guns had the right velocity and pentration then they would be a call for them to tiered to 7.7.

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13 hours ago, Byebye360 said:

So when are all panzer 4s goint to 4.3 and up?

 

Don't ask me. I'm not a developer. And I am up for those to be uptiered. Funny huh? This is topic about Mk3 and FV, sorry that I don't bring up any other tanks.

Is this how discussions here go? People jabbing at me with "but let's look there, these boys have their toys, I want mine"?

There are threads about Panzers, you are welcome to do another one, where I will agree with you. 

Edited by Phelpsiee
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3 hours ago, Phelpsiee said:

 

Don't ask me. I'm not a developer. And I am up for those to be uptiered. Funny huh? This is topic about Mk3 and FV, sorry that I don't bring up any other tanks.

Is this how discussions here go? People jabbing at me with "but let's look there, these boys have their toys, I want mine"?

There are threads about Panzers, you are welcome to do another one, where I will agree with you. 

just one question 

 

can you hit most of the crew and render the tank disabled with one shot with either tank?

 

Edited by moz2003
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Yes. Not easy, not point-and-clicky as APHE, but at certain spots you can OHK even T-54s. Just try polygon. 

Game is different though, tanks moving, angling, etc. 

I'm not saying it's easy, it's hard, but it's doable. Don't act like it never happens.

 

And again, you are worried about APDS, nothing to do with uptiering or downtiering said tanks. Your problem is somewhere else.

We do have it harder against APHE opposition with post-pen, but we certainly have the first shot and we can disable the tank from fighting us. Stabilization and traverse helps a lot.

 

I am closing this discussion for myself, because it's ammunition problem, not BR problem. At 6.3 those tanks just clubbed. 

One ammunition is broken to the point it's hillarious, the other to the point it's clubby.

Edited by Phelpsiee
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22 hours ago, moz2003 said:

Without the tank and gun the ammo is nothing but a lump of metal and does nothing so it is not a ammo issue in the regards to solid shot or apds (although in this game the ammo has no weight values to them so) 

 

armour compared to those at 5.7 is weak as every tank negates the slope, reverse speed of the fv4202 is a joke.

guns that shouldn't pen do in the most stupid of places.

 

Im sorry but these tanks are just not depicted in this game as true and historically accurate for gods sake the cent mk3 took on T54s in the Golan Heights and won when the the m60s got humped. if they were up to stratch in regards to the thier armour ie the slope and the guns had the right velocity and pentration then they would be a call for them to tiered to 7.7.

Funny thing is: we're basically on the same page regarding these tanks, we just come to different conclusions:

- You want the tanks to be downtiered in order to be able to achive sth in them with the current (poor) state of their ammo

- I want them implemented in the game in a correct, more historical way with ammo working as intended in real life

 

You mentioned the Golan Heights. Just imagine the outcome of the battle if the ammo worked there like in the game, Syria would have won the war with only a handful of T-54, heck, even T-34/85 would have been enough with their trolly APDS-resistent armor :016:

But after all i stick with my argument that the effeciveness of these tanks is limited due to how their ammo is implemented in this game and not by the chassis (which are working quite good and are very advanced also at their current BR). Yes, often their armor is no match for a Kingtigers 8,8, but honestl, there are only a few tanks in their BR-range that can deal with this, it's not unique to the brits. Plus: it's a duell between a heavy and a medium, in a head-on fight the heav is _meant_ to be superior.

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You're right, they're completely useless now that you actually have to use a bit of your brain while playing them. They're so bad right now, stabilizers and lolpen guns don't fit the meta at all! Stupid Gaijin and their russian bias!!1!

 

Spoiler

You're lucky they didn't change the BR to 7.0.

 

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29 minutes ago, StronkVodka said:

You're right, they're completely useless now that you actually have to use a bit of your brain while playing them. They're so bad right now, stabilizers and lolpen guns don't fit the meta at all! Stupid Gaijin and their russian bias!!1!

Sure, they lolpen (with APDS) and then the target has a good lol about the pitiful damage the round does. In no way should these tanks go back down in BR but they do need their APDS to be fixed for them to be as effective as other tanks in anything other than 6.7 or 7.0 (or 7.3 in certain conditions, e.g facing Leopards which can be dispatched with AP most of the time) considering they'd have to rely on "My tank is a Stalinium/Kruppstahl bunker" players to be able to stick with the AP round and flank with a top speed of 35kph (downhill) for the Centurion Mk 3 and 32kph (downhill) for the FV4202.

 

41 minutes ago, StronkVodka said:
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You're lucky they didn't change the BR to 7.0.

 

A lot of changes would have to happen for them to be at 7.0 - proper penetration for the APDS (330mm at 1000 yards), removal of the AP round as the stock ammo etc. Not that Gaijin would have necessarily made those changes before a BR increase to 7.0.

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1 hour ago, Dodger79 said:

Funny thing is: we're basically on the same page regarding these tanks, we just come to different conclusions:

- You want the tanks to be downtiered in order to be able to achive sth in them with the current (poor) state of their ammo

- I want them implemented in the game in a correct, more historical way with ammo working as intended in real life

 

You mentioned the Golan Heights. Just imagine the outcome of the battle if the ammo worked there like in the game, Syria would have won the war with only a handful of T-54, heck, even T-34/85 would have been enough with their trolly APDS-resistent armor :016:

But after all i stick with my argument that the effeciveness of these tanks is limited due to how their ammo is implemented in this game and not by the chassis (which are working quite good and are very advanced also at their current BR). Yes, often their armor is no match for a Kingtigers 8,8, but honestl, there are only a few tanks in their BR-range that can deal with this, it's not unique to the brits. Plus: it's a duell between a heavy and a medium, in a head-on fight the heav is _meant_ to be superior.

im sorry but until these changes are made they need to go back down to be able to compete

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APDS could be slightly buffed post pen damage wise but it would be highly unrealistic to buff them on the level of full caliber AP rounds or APFSDS rounds, While wer are at it APCR should be buffed too since APDS are basically APCR fired in a sabot speaking about 1st gen APDS which is what 20 Pdr fires.

 

They also do fit well at 6.7 currently. The only thing is that they are not the roll and lol on the move death machines they were at 6.3. They indeed are 6.7 medium tanks by all standards, the problem here is compression.

 

Bringing them back to 6.3 is completely senseless... The biggest issue i would say is now the total absence of a proper british line up at 6.3, but, as it's been said before Gaijin could easily implement Cent Mk 2 and Caernavon equipped with the 17 Pdr to fill the gap... Sadly, as shown lately, they seem to be more busy at creating hype through the introduction of poorly documented and simulated modern vehicles which behaves in such a way that makes look world of tanks realistic.

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5 minutes ago, Tantor57 said:

APDS could be slightly buffed post pen damage wise but it would be highly unrealistic to buff them on the level of full caliber AP rounds or APFSDS rounds,

 

Not as unrealistic as you'd think. Increased energy on impact is a hell of a drug.

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8 minutes ago, Tantor57 said:

APDS could be slightly buffed post pen damage wise but it would be highly unrealistic to buff them on the level of full caliber AP rounds or APFSDS rounds, While wer are at it APCR should be buffed too since APDS are basically APCR fired in a sabot speaking about 1st gen APDS which is what 20 Pdr fires.

 

They also do fit well at 6.7 currently. The only thing is that they are not the roll and lol on the move death machines they were at 6.3. They indeed are 6.7 medium tanks by all standards, the problem here is compression.

 

Bringing them back to 6.3 is completely senseless... The biggest issue i would say is now the total absence of a proper british line up at 6.3, but, as it's been said before Gaijin could easily implement Cent Mk 2 and Caernavon equipped with the 17 Pdr to fill the gap... Sadly, as shown lately, they seem to be more busy at creating hype through the introduction of poorly documented and simulated modern vehicles which behaves in such a way that makes look world of tanks realistic.

is everyone just out to screw the british over?

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1 hour ago, moz2003 said:

is everyone just out to screw the british over?

Depends on how you define it. You want your seal clubber back, others just want the tanks "repaired" and play on an even level against competetive opponents. Just because you do not understand this it doesn't mean we want to "screw" the Brits in any way, in fact i love the british tree. And i am having quite a lot of fun with Cent Mk3, FV, Strv and Caernarvon on 6.7. I am not as successful as with the Germans or Russians, but i am having fun. And regarding w/l, well, that's positive (55-60% winrate), only the k/d is slightly negative. But it's a fun and unexpected successful ride with 'em.

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1 hour ago, TheFuzzieOne said:

 

Not as unrealistic as you'd think. Increased energy on impact is a hell of a drug.

Its not the amount of energy that matters. Its how the shell is designed to acheive the penetration that matters. A 120 mm full bore shell has a much greater amount of energy than even nowadays APFSDS but its penetration power represents maybe a third of that of an APFSDS  shell.... not even talking about the post penetration effect of an APFSDS which by its speed and design is horrificly high... All that acheived with less energy.

 

So the real question would be to know if the s0alling cone of both APCR and APDS are realistic. I suspect them not to be ofc but it obviously cannot be as deadly as a 120 mm fullbore projectile or an APFSDS of an equivalent caliber so it probably sits in between. Looking for a proper and balanced ppst pen effect for APDS id scale it on solid shot post pen effect based on the effective diameter of the penetrator. 20 pdr APDS post pen damage would then be equal to the 6 pdr post pen damage and 120 mm apds would then equal the 17 pdr solid shot post pen damage. 

 

I think itd be a good way to increase their post pen effect without being too far from the reality.

Edited by Tantor57
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On 01/04/2018 at 5:15 PM, Necrons31467 said:

No, they don't, 2 shots average if you're any decent.

 

 

Haha. You're kdding, right? APDS spalling is pathetic. 3 shots minimum to knock out crew. You can forget about detonating ammo because with APDS, it simply does not happen. Anyway, if the Panther D is having such a big problem then just buff it? The British tree can't afford to have two (more) useless tanks, the Germans have way more variation.

Edited by ManikB
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