DarkHearth

Conqueror - What is your opinion?

The conqueror is underperforming in my book. The armor is great, no doubt - but the gun is underperforming by a large maring. 
If you dont hit ammo tanks will most of the time be a 2 shot. Meaning it will take up to 30 seconds to kill a single tank. 

For all intends and purposes the Centurion and Vickers guns field the same effectiveness when it comes to penetrating the tanks you are gonna see. The after armor effect is also comparable. So in regards of what you are facing, the vickers and centurion are fielding the same gun, with more than double the firing rate. 

The T32 US heavy tank has even better armor at the same BR and an arguably way better gun. The penetration may be lower but the HE filler guarantee a oneshot kill most of the time and the reload is noticeably faster. 

The Conqueror comes with a stabilizer though - but with a stabilizer that stabilizes a needle firing gun.

I would not go the conqueror again as its not combat effective in the current form. 

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I love this tank despite all its downsides and punishment it takes from bad map desings and bad ammo mechanics. Expert crew helps a lot and its better in sim imo. Mantlet armour seems to be badly modelled, but ufp and cheeks are one of the best if not the best at this tier.

 

I wouldn't recomend it unless you really love this tank like me. Huge effort is needed, but in the end you might die by some bs cupola APHE shot by some random guy.

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On 06/12/2018 at 23:28, Luciferke said:

Any idea why did i happened, why i cannot penned it? (server side replay):

 

 

Because of a misscalculation from the game/server. Not that the APDS is not capable of penetrating it.

And i'm quite sure you are aware of that aswell, so we are not talking about APDS not being able to penetrate target armour, butrather a bug or a small % happening.

 

I use APDS quite often, and i can say that things like this do happen.... but its not frequent.

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4 hours ago, Turra said:

Because of a misscalculation from the game/server. Not that the APDS is not capable of penetrating it.

And i'm quite sure you are aware of that aswell, so we are not talking about APDS not being able to penetrate target armour, butrather a bug or a small % happening.

 

I use APDS quite often, and i can say that things like this do happen.... but its not frequent.

Well, let's see if Gaijin throws away those servers from the Soviet era that he has and buys new ones. Apart from that we already know that APDS and APCR are extremely nervous because Gaijin does not want to make adjustments in the BRs (which are so lacking ) or want to give the APHE realistic damage, but hey, that's just the tip of the iceberg of all the bugs and game problems that aren't fixed because gaijin doesn't want to.
I can only say one thing: BUY PREMIUMS.
 
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14 hours ago, nordkind said:

The conqueror is underperforming in my book. The armor is great, no doubt - but the gun is underperforming by a large maring. 
If you dont hit ammo tanks will most of the time be a 2 shot. Meaning it will take up to 30 seconds to kill a single tank. 

For all intends and purposes the Centurion and Vickers guns field the same effectiveness when it comes to penetrating the tanks you are gonna see. The after armor effect is also comparable. So in regards of what you are facing, the vickers and centurion are fielding the same gun, with more than double the firing rate. 

The T32 US heavy tank has even better armor at the same BR and an arguably way better gun. The penetration may be lower but the HE filler guarantee a oneshot kill most of the time and the reload is noticeably faster. 

The Conqueror comes with a stabilizer though - but with a stabilizer that stabilizes a needle firing gun.

I would not go the conqueror again as its not combat effective in the current form. 

You should try HESH more often, unless its APDS gets the buff treatment like the Chieftain.

In times when your APDS cannot set off ammo, the HESH can often wipe out the crew. It is 120mm and deals the same damage as the one on Chieftain.

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4 hours ago, Loongsheep said:

You should try HESH more often, unless its APDS gets the buff treatment like the Chieftain.

In times when your APDS cannot set off ammo, the HESH can often wipe out the crew. It is 120mm and deals the same damage as the one on Chieftain.

 

The issue is, you can't roll with HESH always fitted, since it has a hard-cap on what it can hurt.

 

So that means you need to reload, and if you aren't one-shotting with APHE, then you are automatically worse than the other tanks around. And with the Conq's low reload...

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Not only that, but it often even doesnt kill tanks it can penetrate with one shot. Fore example the T54 which you will face most of the time is not killable from the front in one shot with HESH. Plus you cannot pen the turret apart from the cupola. AND Hesh is by margins harder to aim. Trust me Ive tried to make it work  - its not worth it apart from situational circumstances. For example an SU 100 or shot where you only see the tiny side of a turret. 

At all other times APDS is to be prefered. Not that it would be terrible effective anyway. 

If you want to see how the Conqueror plays damage wise: Watch this video of Phly Daily. 
Its not the same tank but the same gun. You will see him struggle to kill medium and light tanks with two shots (38 seconds kill time with stock crew btw)
 

 

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I want to try the Conqueror, but every time I see the reload I'm like "Nah, that's OK..."

 

Better to uptier one of the Brit 6.7 tanks as a deep backup to the Cent Mk10/Vickers MBT at 7.3 IMO.

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In reality the tank was a monster... I was close friends for a good few years with an older gentleman named Albert Dunn who served with 4RTR in Fallingbostel, Germany from 1957. He was at the time a Conqueror gunner. He loved it and was disappointed when he was re-assigned to a Centurion sabre squadron following an injury as the Conqueror gunners were considered the elite of their trade. He told me lots of interesting stories about the tank he enjoyed working with so much often over a pint or two pretty much right up until his sudden passing a few years ago aged 78.

 

For the time (1955) it had one of the most powerful guns available for a tank. The 120mm Ordnance QF Tk. L1A2 was fitted to the Conqueror along side the American M103, which was essentially the same gun just manufactured under licence in the states and made ever so slightly different due to a different direction being taken in terms of ammunition type. Not to be confused with the largest calibre of the time, just one of the most powerful.

 

Three piece ammunition type was chosen for the Conqueror MK.2 as a change to the Conqueror Mk.1 which used one piece ammunition similar to that of the Centurion but due to the calibre increase weighed around 45lbs (20.4kg) in order to reduce the required effort and time taken in loading from the operator. Hence the 'QF' (quick firing designation). Albert explained to me that an average reload would take between 8 - 9 sec. If it took you longer than that you "weren't good enough" were the words he used and you were standing while working not seated. The three piece nature of the ammunition also allowed the propellant cases to be manufactured slightly larger than if it was a one piece type, I'll explain why this is important shortly. The propellant was still cased (in brass i believe as opposed to a bag) to reduce the probability of ammunition detonation from post penetration spalling and shrapnel. Additional shielding (an early version of armoured charge bins) was placed around the propellant case charges to further reduce this chance. Also a 40mm thick spall liner was also introduced on all internal surfaces of the vehicle to reduce the damage following an 'unlikely' penetration.   

 

 The sub calibre APDS projectile, Shot Mk.L1G, which the M103 did not have, combined with the larger mass propellant charge had an average muzzle velocity of 1495 m/s. That's roughly 4.3 times the speed of sound... in 1955... which is almost double the muzzle velocity of the equivalent Russian 122mm... let that sink in for a sec. The high muzzle velocity combined with a penetrator weight of nearly 8kg meant that whatever it hit simply stopped moving and anything considered a medium tank or lighter would be literally torn apart. This huge velocity and much more aerodynamically shaped projectile than that of a conventional 25kg APBC meant that both penetration and accuracy were vastly superior even at 1000 yards and an increase in range to 2000 yards had a less than linear performance reduction effect in terms of pentration and dispersion. Shot Mk.L1G fired from the L1A2 was capable of penetrating a staggering 406mm of RHA at 0 degrees at 2000 yards. Compare that to 180mm for the 122mm at the same range. When the armour is sloped to 60 degrees the difference in capability between the two types of projectile is even greater due to the ballistic characteristics of the penetrator. 64mm of penetration for a 122mm APBC shell at 60 degrees from a range of 2000 yards compared to 108mm for the same range and angled target for the 120mm Shot Mk.L1G.

 

Then there's the optics which again, at the time, were better than anything western never mind...

The commander was equipped with an independent coincidence range finder in a 360 degree rotational cupola vastly improving his situational awareness and this allowed him to identify and effectively range a target independently from the gunner. The gunner via a mechanical traverse dial could then lay the main armament onto to the target and engage it faster as the range to target was already known. Meanwhile the commander could already be actively searching for the next target. Basically it was a very early hunter killer system way ahead of its time.

 

Now there's the armour... which was monumental. Im not going to go into details in this area because I'd be here all week but in the frontal 45 degree projection the tank was for all intensive purposes immune to everything on the battlefield at the time. The upper and lower glacis are heavily sloped between 60 and 70 degrees and the turret, although massive, was comprised of such an awkward shape and high angles that all conventional APBC projectiles would bounce off it and the larger the calibre the more this effect would multiply. Even early HEATFS would struggle against the turret as there is no flat portion of it to hit. Except maybe the turret ring but even that was 400mm thick. Most of the time due to the shape of the early HEATFS projectiles the shoulder of the round would hit the armour first causing a richochet. Improvements in this type of ammunition however led to the production of the Conqueror Mk.2 with a spaced armour package on both the hull and turret. At the time early HEATFS projectiles couldn't penetrate much more than their cone diameter in armour meaning only a small stand-off gap was needed to defeat its effectiveness. This is normally where i would go on to rant about how terrible the ballistics are in this game but i won't bother. Im not even going to mention the mantlet either because this seems to be a common theme with Gaijin and British tanks. If you ever get a chance to see it up close and personal you'll know exactly what i mean when i say there isn't a word I can think of to describe it.  

 

The only downside of this vehicle was its massive weight which meant its running gear as in its engine and transmission were under a lot of stress. Not that they weren't able to deal with the weight, much like the later Chieftains, they just suffered higher than normal mechanical failure rates. This though did not make it slow, as you are led to think and unable to turn like it is in the game (as are the Chieftains) but was able to keep up with the much smaller, lighter and on paper faster Centurion. Particularly X-country because of the way the suspension and track was designed to reduce the ground pressure of such a heavy vehicle (a design trait carried over to the Chieftain and later Challenger tanks).

 

To answer you question DarkHearth, the Conqueror is, like many British tanks in the game, a shadow of how it should be to make it fit the game and due to the lack of attention to detail almost insulting to the real thing and the men who served in them.  

 

My photograph of 'Remus' I took during my last visit to Bovington with Albert before he passed away...  

20181213_155119.thumb.jpg.ceda414c386ebc                 

Edited by _Fear_Naught_
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tbf they left the Conqueror with a stabilised gun for all this time despite everything I've heard of it not having one

that said the conq sucks

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18 minutes ago, _Fear_Naught_ said:

For the time (1955) it had one of the most powerful guns available for a tank.        

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

and right there is the guts of the problem with the MM system and why BR's suck - time/date of service means nothing.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, *RAazzy91 said:

tbf they left the Conqueror with a stabilised gun for all this time despite everything I've heard of it not having one

that said the conq sucks

The Conqueror like every Centurion after the Mk.1 including the Caernarvon (Centurion turret & Conqueror hull) were equipped with a stabiliser. 

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The conqueror is one of my favorite post war heavy tanks. I hope they add corrections to its APDS values this upcoming patch, been waiting since January.

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4 hours ago, *RAazzy91 said:

tbf they left the Conqueror with a stabilised gun for all this time despite everything I've heard of it not having one

that said the conq sucks

what?

3 hours ago, _Fear_Naught_ said:

The Conqueror like every Centurion after the Mk.1 including the Caernarvon (Centurion turret & Conqueror hull) were equipped with a stabiliser. 

That's what I understand as well.

4 hours ago, _Fear_Naught_ said:

Even early HEATFS would struggle against the turret as there is no flat portion of it to hit. Except maybe the turret ring but even that was 400mm thick.

This tanks turret weighs 18.5 tons, this tank is a gad damn monster from the front. 

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8 minutes ago, Luciferke said:

Any idea why 60mm apfsds does about 10 times more damage than a 120mm apds? (AUBL/HVG vs Conq)

Reasons. 

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9 hours ago, *RAazzy91 said:

tbf they left the Conqueror with a stabilised gun for all this time despite everything I've heard of it not having one

that said the conq sucks

It most definitely did have one but IRL the gun couldn't be fired on the move, gun control was restricted when on the move. This however I believe isn't exactly unique in game.

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32 minutes ago, Louise_So_schoen said:

No , they won't . Never !

I disagree

They've been working on it but haven't released the changes for whatever reason.

They basically worked on all APDS shells.

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