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23 hours ago, Josephs_Piano said:

TL;DR

 

ayyy '

 

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Kidding aside very informative post Nope, and These comparisons are pretty fair when looked trying to look from a balancing point of view. If Gajin actually had considerations for good ( but balanced ideas) 

 

maybe theyd actually learn something a thing or two from this thread.   April fools with Smash mouth / Shrek memes Ahoy! ( although theyd propably get sent sent Cease and Desists from layers due to Copyright......) 

 

That said for tanks like m60A3 to be worthwhile over current  m60A1 Rise Passive  with potential Ammo option upgrades , FCS would need to be modeled to. Too bad gajin is lazy with game mechanics.

 

 

Edited by kev2go
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To contribute  on what you said re m60A3 TTS vs M1/ M1A1 comparison of FCS and Thermals in particular.

 

here are some Visual Aids ( i know how its sounds but  their not  STD's K?) from Steel Beasts

 

 

M1 abrams  - range 1800M   ( M1/ M1A1 and M1A1 HA share the same FCS )

 

hrOnTn5.jpg

 

 

 

M60A3 tts - Same range

 

 

wJpRC5c.jpg

 

 

 

tanks in these tanks displays are T-72B ( mod 1985 with Kontact 1)  left and T-72A right. Although In Abrams sight specifically its kinda hard to tell exactly what sort of tank it.  depending on ROE Youd get better IFF after spotting heat signatures by switching over to day sight to confirm these are Soviet tanks and not Nato allies. assuming weather conditions allow for it. ( Remember the FF incidents in gulf war? because gunners mistook m1's for enemies?) 

 

By no means a dealbreaker although kinda annoying but M60A3 / M60A3 TTS  doesn't display laser range in gunners sight. Only displays for the TC on a range display outside Sighs on AN/VVG2 Laser Rangefinder.

 

y76Umxq.png

 

 

You know you ranged as gunner but dont know the distance  personally unless the TC  actually tells you verbally. Otherwise FCS largely comparable to M1 Abrams but with superior Thermal Image resolution not surpassed until Gen 2 Thermal Imaging introduced on the M1A2 SEP V1 combined with up to x50 optical magnification.

 

Agreed here the M60A3 would have been a fantastic tank to Supplement the m1 series in combat.

 

Video Demos in Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by kev2go
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16 hours ago, Nope said:

 

rha tanks are good enough against composite mbts if they have better fcs, challenger tanks are mediocre, japanese tanks are strangely good, composite tanks are like ogres and are thus like onions

 

I think it would help if you seperated the major sections/paragraphs into spoilers; that way peoples eyes can focus on a managable amount of text instead of wandering around wondering wtf they just got themselves into.

 

Otherwise this was an excellent read; thanks for taking the time to write all of this.

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10 hours ago, IOC_000 said:

 

I think it would help if you seperated the major sections/paragraphs into spoilers; that way peoples eyes can focus on a managable amount of text instead of wandering around wondering wtf they just got themselves into.

 

Otherwise this was an excellent read; thanks for taking the time to write all of this.

 

I could just put everything in spoilers based on Shrek quote division. I'll try that.

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Great post as always Nope o7

 

It's quite a brain melter reading through all of this after seeing what we have in game being so out of touch with reality, for example L23A1 and even L23 being better than M833 yet in game M833 is in a league of its own

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38 minutes ago, LULZ said:

Great post as always Nope o7

 

It's quite a brain melter reading through all of this after seeing what we have in game being so out of touch with reality, for example L23A1 and even L23 being better than M833 yet in game M833 is in a league of its own

 

L23 is only slightly better than M833, but yeah, the values are kinda ridiculous. What I also found interesting is that DM23 seems worse versus steel than DM13, yet has superior penetration vs composites. Still, the most offensive thing is still that any of the tanks in-game can even tank a single shot on the hull. Any of the rounds specified will go through the hull in the game's combat distances, if not even the turret. Gaijin cannot accept that they will have to make the maps significantly bigger possibly because making such large maps takes too much time and money. If they wanted combat distances to shorten like that they should have given the M1 M735, the T-64B the actual layout it's supposed to have (T-64A layout) plus 3BM-15, L15A5 APDS for the CR 1 and simply not give the Germans anything but the 1A4 with DM23 or the Leopard 2K without a single upgrade and DM13. Almost every single side is wrong technically, and that's part of what I was worried about with the composite era.

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22 minutes ago, Nope said:

the T-64B the actual layout it's supposed to have (T-64A layout) 

Seems like they wanted it to be the BV but switched it to the B.

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1 minute ago, WulfPack said:

Seems like they wanted it to be the BV but switched it to the B.

 

Nah, they wanted it to be the T-64BV from the start because the only difference between a T-64A and a T-64B is the new FCS for the most part. Since this would barely change anything in War Thunder, they decided to go with the T-64BV so that Russian tank fans can feel some improvement. It's understandable and the protection levels against KE shouldn't be too far off from what's on the M1 Abrams's hull, let alone the CR 1's hull.

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T-64B got the 30mm applique later on, they couldn't have just used that?

 

Edit: this is Gaijin, they would just add the 30mm on top of the BV hull we already have :thinking:

Edited by LULZ
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13 minutes ago, Nope said:

 

Nah, they wanted it to be the T-64BV from the start because the only difference between a T-64A and a T-64B is the new FCS for the most part. Since this would barely change anything in War Thunder, they decided to go with the T-64BV so that Russian tank fans can feel some improvement. It's understandable and the protection levels against KE shouldn't be too far off from what's on the M1 Abrams's hull, let alone the CR 1's hull.

Wheres my BV 

8 minutes ago, LULZ said:

T-64B got the 30mm applique later on, they couldn't have just used that?

They'd also have to move the smoke launchers on the turret

 

Edited by WulfPack
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9 minutes ago, LULZ said:

So this is Gaijins source material for the T-64B hull armour

 

From this post they made about the modern tanks 

 

I can't seem to find when this came out or which model this is associated with directly on the blueprint itself, but that might be because I can't read Russian.

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On 3/13/2018 at 9:45 AM, Nope said:

 

 

 

Also Re my FIrst Post to add

 

 

On 3/12/2018 at 9:50 PM, kev2go said:

 

 

 

 

Kidding aside very informative post Nope, and These comparisons are pretty fair when looked trying to look from a balancing point of view. If Gajin actually had considerations for good ( but balanced ideas) 

 

maybe theyd actually learn something a thing or two from this thread.   April fools with Smash mouth / Shrek memes Ahoy! ( although theyd propably get sent sent Cease and Desists from layers due to Copyright......) 

 

That said for tanks like m60A3 to be worthwhile over current  m60A1 Rise Passive  with potential Ammo option upgrades , FCS would need to be modeled to. Too bad gajin is lazy with game mechanics.

 

 

 

 

you overlooked the  T55AM and T62M tanks ( modernization of legacy tanks.) ;)

 

These would also be around in droves in pact and Russia to be called upon to supplement the  T64's &T72's etc. 

 

 

Edited by kev2go
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Also thx for editing with spoilers. Easier to manage reading.

 

Although had already the post in its original format, itl be welcome for any one who haven't.

Edited by kev2go
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Speaking of waiting for the MoD to deliver on the CR2 LEP, who do you think will win the contract BAE or Rheinmetall

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3 hours ago, LULZ said:

Speaking of waiting for the MoD to deliver on the CR2 LEP, who do you think will win the contract BAE or Rheinmetall

 

No idea tbh, though I'm more partial to BAE winning due to being native to the UK.

 

even if bae is kind of made fun of by salty british grunts

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15 hours ago, LULZ said:

Speaking of waiting for the MoD to deliver on the CR2 LEP, who do you think will win the contract BAE or Rheinmetall

BAE will most likely win the contract for political reasons alone. The Brits may not be too kin on having a German company doing a rework of their MBTs. Though I hope Rheinmetall still wins. Without a turret overhaul and a new gun, they might as well just throw the remaining few Challenger 2's to the scrapyard and buy something off the shelf.

Hey Tovarish. Add the jooz. Snail will def add them later on as they progress with the modern tech trees.

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11 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Hey Tovarish. Add the jooz. Snail will def add them later on as they progress with the modern tech trees.

 

The odd part is where to start. Magachs are Israeli technically, but is it worth saying "tis just a patton my dude" for so long? I mean, Israeli 105mm APFSDS is amazing and all (praise m111), but it's a bit tiring just to add Pattons. And if I were to skip them and go straight to the chariots, I'd have issues finding out where exactly to place some of them because of the controversial opinion of mine that Israeli chariots are not that well-armored to begin with except on the amazing turret starting from when they decided to add composite armor packages. Plus Sabras could either be Israeli or Turkish and I thought of adding the export K2 Altay. Not to mention the IDF actually has a sizable amount of tank variants and I'm just too lazy sometimes.

 

Still, it's either going to be for amazing defense thanks to turret armor and reloading the ammo racks while in cover, urban combat starting from Trophy APS getting in or just that smooth cruise across the desert in the gavin passed through the "i'm you but stronger" memes

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3 minutes ago, Nope said:

but is it worth saying "tis just a patton my dude" for so long?

That why you skipped modernized T-55s and T-62s?

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2 minutes ago, WulfPack said:

That why you skipped modernized T-55s and T-62s?

 

Part of it yeah. It's already a mess trying to get all those T-72 and T-64 variants in, and usually I briefly mention them. Though for the Russian case, there are way more variants of everything than what any other nation would consider.

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10 hours ago, Nope said:

 

The odd part is where to start. Magachs are Israeli technically, but is it worth saying "tis just a patton my dude" for so long? I mean, Israeli 105mm APFSDS is amazing and all (praise m111), but it's a bit tiring just to add Pattons. And if I were to skip them and go straight to the chariots, I'd have issues finding out where exactly to place some of them because of the controversial opinion of mine that Israeli chariots are not that well-armored to begin with except on the amazing turret starting from when they decided to add composite armor packages. Plus Sabras could either be Israeli or Turkish and I thought of adding the export K2 Altay. Not to mention the IDF actually has a sizable amount of tank variants and I'm just too lazy sometimes.

 

Still, it's either going to be for amazing defense thanks to turret armor and reloading the ammo racks while in cover, urban combat starting from Trophy APS getting in or just that smooth cruise across the desert in the gavin passed through the "i'm you but stronger" memes

There were a couple guys on these forums that found neat ways to make a complete tree. Surprisingly, unless you're talking about the very low BR ones, the copy pasta lines very quickly diverge into indigenous upgrades and unique designs. There were 3 basic variants of the Patton I believe, but there's no need to add them all. Add maybe 2 with one of the optional, and quickly advance into the 105mm armed, Blazer armored ones, then stuff composite armored ones between Merkava tanks to fill the gaps. Cents also got neat upgrades, and Blazer ERA was one of them. 

Very low BR will be a problem, but it is possible to add a system where you unlock a tree that starts with a higher minimum BR by, say, unlocking that BR on another tree first, or in a set amount of trees.

 

Either way, I do see a meta for Merkava tanks, and I posted it in short in another thread. 

 

Meta while using it: Hide the LFP as much as possible, in Mk3 onwards be the off-road drift king until the Leclerc and K2 enter the picture. Be hecking bouncy on the turret sides as well, not just front. Be overall very survivable against anything that isn't fire damage, plus because the gun mantlet is very small and the breech is not as vulnerable as usual.

Side scraping is actually viable. Very resilient against artillery (roof armor) and those Sturmpanzer 2 with their derpy HE (side armor).

 

Meta against it: Side rear hull shots for EZ ammo kills. If you can hit the nose or the LFP, that's EZ engine damage and fire. Turret is arrow shaped so turret ring traps, especially for HE shells, exist. Especially if you catch its side, because the front has a turret ring protection like you see on the Maus, though it's insignificant. And if you're specifically against Mk1 and Mk2, outmaneuver them. 

 

The hull armor isn't all that controversial. The LFP and slightly to the nose area are indeed poorly armored. Even the Namer, with its additional ~25 tons of armor over the Mk4, has no applique on the LFP but puts it all on the sides and roof. Only the UFP was considered more important than the sides and roof. The controversy was, I think, on how well the UFP is armored. How much does the sloping help, and how thick is the armor on the Mk4 and all that. But it can be overcome. The Merkava tanks WILL struggle because of the LFP. But then, there is also the T-14 that will soon be added that will have no turret armor. A hull plate is easy to hide in many cases. Especially if it's the lower one. A turret, not so much. But it will be balanced somehow.

Edited by Mighty_Zuk

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On 3/14/2018 at 7:47 PM, Nope said:

 

Part of it yeah. It's already a mess trying to get all those T-72 and T-64 variants in, and usually I briefly mention them. Though for the Russian case, there are way more variants of everything than what any other nation would consider.

 

i think it would be worth considering since its a modernized legacy tank like the m60A1 Rise P and M60A3 that could have supplemented more modern tanks ( although note sure how the Volyna FCS really would compare to T72A & B sighting systems or a T64B FCS. seems to be pretty vague descriptions of it.

Edited by kev2go
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Added the T-80BVM.

 

Oh yeah I've also added the Patton/Super Gavin Israeli line, this time with two sides summed up with this question:

 

she thicc or she thinn??????????

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Pls let us know where the new stuff you added is located so we dont have to go fishing just for one or two tanks. Could you also add Ukrainian stuff at some point

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