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[WIP] McDonnall XP-67 Moonbat


Hello Everyone! I am making an XP-67 and intend on it being a part of the game, be it from Revenue Share, or just a single player user mission. I posted a lot of previous progress on the model on Live, but I never made an official forum post, so I'll do that now. After I am done making the model, @PickleJarOfDeath will be texturing the plane and making it look awsome!

 

So, if anyone does not know about the XP-67, it was McDonnell's first actual aircraft and was made under contract from the US Army to be able to produce a radical new plane that would outperform existing types. McDonnell ended up designing a two engine heavy fighter that heavily blended the engine nacelles into the wings and fuselage in order to reduce drag. It was to use very powerful V-12 engines from Continental in order to propel it to a proposed top speed of 472mph.

Unfortunately, there were some problems that plagued the Moonbat, mostly the engines. The new Continental engines did not produce as much power as they were supposed to, only making 1300hp instead of 1600hp. Cooling issues were also a problem but were somewhat mitigated after an extensive redesign of the cooling ducts. There were some aerodynamic tendencies like an affinity to dutch-roll, but it generally flew well according to its pilots. All in all, the XP-67 was only able to achieve 405mph in level flight before an engine fire destroyed the only prototype. McDonnell tried to save the project by proposing to add two Westinghouse Turbojets and promised a top speed of over 500mph, but the Army refused the offer and canceled funding for the project.

Gun bays for 6 37mm cannons were made, but the armament was never fitted.

 

So, after all of that information, here is what I have so far with the model.

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Prototypes are always the most unusual and interesting designs. Always interesting to see them. 

Good job with the modeling, and research. I hope to shoot one down one day. Keep up the good work.

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The three camouflages I will be producing are:

  • Standard olive drab with neutral grey countershading
    • Default
    • Historical
    • Original camouflage on the airframe
  • Bare metal
    • Purchasable and unlockable is my preference
    • Semi-historical
    • The plane was unpainted from start to finish of assembly (not including interior)
    • Did not have full markings until after camouflage was applied
  • Olive drab with night fighter black countershading
    • unlockable only and with highest requirement is my preference
    • Historical
    • Final camouflage on the airframe

Here is a dump of photos I will be using as references in order to visually bring the model to life. I will be using an immense number of technical documents as well, containing diagrams and schematics in order to detail panels and rivets with precision.

 

Spoiler

600px-LMAL_33874_McDonnell_XP-67_Bat,_1943.jpg

 

 

Spoiler

RIVET PATTERNS.jpg

 

 

Spoiler

600px-LMAL_33963_McDonnell_XP-67_Bat,_1943.jpg

 

 

Spoiler

67reference3.jpg

 

 

Spoiler

night_reference_67.jpg

 

 

Spoiler

No_paint_67.jpg

 

Spoiler

67quarter_close_view.jpg.72e0555b5a60664

 

Edited by PickleJarOfDeath
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4 minutes ago, Invder9908 said:

Prototypes are always the most unusual and interesting designs. Always interesting to see them. 

Good job with the modeling, and research. I hope to shoot one down one day. Keep up the good work.

I hope to shoot you down in one one day. :p:

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Very interesting machine, would any of you gents know why they went with the 6 37mm loadout? I can't see why the US needed a dedicated bomber hunter.

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50 minutes ago, AKULA95723 said:

Very interesting machine, would any of you gents know why they went with the 6 37mm loadout? I can't see why the US needed a dedicated bomber hunter.

They did need it earlier in the war, however, the need disappeared very quickly and during the development of this aircraft. The plane carried the armament needed for the task but the performance was somewhat lacking and they were forced to use the same engines so the development was terminated. I would love to see them re-engine the plane for the game with one of the intended powerplants. ie. Allison or Rolls Royce. Merlin 1650-9 anyone? )))))

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1 hour ago, PickleJarOfDeath said:

They did need it earlier in the war, however, the need disappeared very quickly and during the development of this aircraft. The plane carried the armament needed for the task but the performance was somewhat lacking and they were forced to use the same engines so the development was terminated. I would love to see them re-engine the plane for the game with one of the intended powerplants. ie. Allison or Rolls Royce. Merlin 1650-9 anyone? )))))

I see, thanks. If in game it were to be a speed demon with 6 37mm it would be a monster, probably not fit the meta that much in air RB but if those cannons have any decent penetration it would be amazing at combined battles.

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20 hours ago, mrparty1 said:

Hello Everyone! I am making an XP-67 and intend on it being a part of the game, be it from Revenue Share, or just a single player user mission. I posted a lot of previous progress on the model on Live, but I never made an official forum post, so I'll do that now. After I am done making the model, @PickleJarOfDeath will be texturing the plane and making it look awsome!

 

So, if anyone does not know about the XP-67, it was McDonnell's first actual aircraft and was made under contract from the US Army to be able to produce a radical new plane that would outperform existing types. McDonnell ended up designing a two engine heavy fighter that heavily blended the engine nacelles into the wings and fuselage in order to reduce drag. It was to use very powerful V-12 engines from Continental in order to propel it to a proposed top speed of 472mph.

Unfortunately, there were some problems that plagued the Moonbat, mostly the engines. The new Continental engines did not produce as much power as they were supposed to, only making 1300hp instead of 1600hp. Cooling issues were also a problem but were somewhat mitigated after an extensive redesign of the cooling ducts. There were some aerodynamic tendencies like an affinity to dutch-roll, but it generally flew well according to its pilots. All in all, the XP-67 was only able to achieve 405mph in level flight before an engine fire destroyed the only prototype. McDonnell tried to save the project by proposing to add two Westinghouse Turbojets and promised a top speed of over 500mph, but the Army refused the offer and canceled funding for the project.

Gun bays for 6 37mm cannons were made, but the armament was never fitted.

 

So, after all of that information, here is what I have so far with the model.

forumback.PNG

forumfront.PNG

forumfrontish.png

forumside.PNG

forumtop.png

forumunder.PNG

plz gib now 

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1 hour ago, Ska_King_Felix said:

plz gib now 

Still, some things need ironing out for the model. This would be followed by making the UV map. The plane needs to be broken up into smaller pieces. The model then needs to be configured in the cdk with emitters, center of mass, animations, and other things. It will also have to be skinned.

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19 hours ago, PickleJarOfDeath said:

They did need it earlier in the war, however, the need disappeared very quickly and during the development of this aircraft. The plane carried the armament needed for the task but the performance was somewhat lacking and they were forced to use the same engines so the development was terminated. I would love to see them re-engine the plane for the game with one of the intended powerplants. ie. Allison or Rolls Royce. Merlin 1650-9 anyone? )))))

 

Need is relative. In reality they didn't need it due to geographical situation relative to any enemies but it was a glaring gap that they knew they had and because they had nothing better to do wanted to fill it.

 

As for the engines it was initially designed to use the engines it was first given however Jim Mcdonnell, as did most everyone else, quickly realized that the engines just weren't good enough (not only not good enough they were failing to meet projected expectations) and was regularly asking for the XP-67 to be reengined with either Packard Merlin engines or Allison engines with supplemental Westinghouse jet engines. The USAAF said no to any change in engines which basically doomed the project to never being anything more than a prototype.

 

As it is I don't see the XP-67 getting any proposed engines. That said I would think that they would give the engines their full expected power seeing as how there are a few airplanes in game whose engines in real life also never delivered the expected full power in history but do in game. Still won't cure the fact that the aircraft was really under powered indeed. For some reasonable power your talking 2000hp or more per engine. Also I would much rather ditch the 37mm cannons (I would call them useless) for either 20mms or just 12.7s.

 

One final note. Due to highly advanced aerodynamic design it had flight characteristics nearing and at stall that made test pilots refuse to attempt to stall it. Other such designs would have similar characteristics and attitudes from pilots until fly by wire systems became viable more than 20 years later.

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1 hour ago, silentrain said:

One final note. Due to highly advanced aerodynamic design it had flight characteristics nearing and at stall that made test pilots refuse to attempt to stall it. Other such designs would have similar characteristics and attitudes from pilots until fly by wire systems became viable more than 20 years later.

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We have fly-by-wire - it's called Instructor.  Also, the XP-55 also had bad stall characteristics, Instructor flies it with no problem.

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6 hours ago, silentrain said:

 

Need is relative. In reality they didn't need it due to geographical situation relative to any enemies but it was a glaring gap that they knew they had and because they had nothing better to do wanted to fill it.

 

As for the engines it was initially designed to use the engines it was first given however Jim Mcdonnell, as did most everyone else, quickly realized that the engines just weren't good enough (not only not good enough they were failing to meet projected expectations) and was regularly asking for the XP-67 to be reengined with either Packard Merlin engines or Allison engines with supplemental Westinghouse jet engines. The USAAF said no to any change in engines which basically doomed the project to never being anything more than a prototype.

 

As it is I don't see the XP-67 getting any proposed engines. That said I would think that they would give the engines their full expected power seeing as how there are a few airplanes in game whose engines in real life also never delivered the expected full power in history but do in game. Still won't cure the fact that the aircraft was really under powered indeed. For some reasonable power your talking 2000hp or more per engine. Also I would much rather ditch the 37mm cannons (I would call them useless) for either 20mms or just 12.7s.

 

One final note. Due to highly advanced aerodynamic design it had flight characteristics nearing and at stall that made test pilots refuse to attempt to stall it. Other such designs would have similar characteristics and attitudes from pilots until fly by wire systems became viable more than 20 years later.

They did need to keep bombers at bay. They didn't need the XP-67 to do it.

 

The jet engines would be J30 or J32 engines but I don't know which. The J30 seems to be far more powerful and worthwhile. I know the engine upgrade was supposed to be paired with the addition of jet engines but... meh...

 

That gives me hope that they would give it the projected engine power. This very reasoning also ~could be applied to suggesting that replacing the engines with Merlins or Allisons. It is not a completely flawless (my) application of that logic but it all is based in a bit of ambiguity. The Packard V-1650-9 Merlin is that very engine you would want. I think the best option for the armament is to allow players to swap them like the cannons fired through the engines of Bf-109s. The 37 is hard to use on other aircraft because the lack of parity in muzzle velocity compared to 12.7 mm rounds. The M2s land hits and the hit award provides positive feedback that does not account for the 37. These cannons isolated will be easier to aim than with the other clutter.

 

iirc It was the stall characteristics and dutch roll that led them to abstain from putting it into a spin rather than stalling.

 

Can you provide examples of planes with different engines or engines with projected power that are in use on aircraft in the game? I think it would be helpful in promoting this plane being up-engined. The 229 is one. I don't know of any others. The R2Y2 is a wholly different type of powerplant but I guess because it was such a radical change, the change of engine for the XP-67 could be considered ok.

Edited by PickleJarOfDeath
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3 hours ago, PickleJarOfDeath said:

Can you provide examples of planes with different engines or engines with projected power that are in use on aircraft in the game? I think it would be helpful in promoting this plane being up-engined. The 229 is one. I don't know of any others. The R2Y2 is a wholly different type of powerplant but I guess because it was such a radical change, the change of engine for the XP-67 could be considered ok.

 

SO.8000 never reached performance expectations in part due to the engine being short of its expected power to the tune that the SO.8000 never broke 400mph, a few of the Yaks (and other Soviet prototypes) with experimental engines never went far due to the engines performing under expectations and depending upon how picky you want to get late Japanese fighters come to mind.

 

Personally in an ideal dream world I would want to see a XP-67 what if with 2,500-3,000hp turboprop engines. That would be putting it into super prop territory. This however isn't the game for that.

 

8 hours ago, Ska_King_Felix said:

We have fly-by-wire - it's called Instructor.  Also, the XP-55 also had bad stall characteristics, Instructor flies it with no problem.

 

Completely different things. Also fly with stick and then tell me about the instructor.

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1 hour ago, silentrain said:

 

SO.8000 never reached performance expectations in part due to the engine being short of its expected power to the tune that the SO.8000 never broke 400mph, a few of the Yaks (and other Soviet prototypes) with experimental engines never went far due to the engines performing under expectations and depending upon how picky you want to get late Japanese fighters come to mind.

 

Personally in an ideal dream world I would want to see a XP-67 what if with 2,500-3,000hp turboprop engines. That would be putting it into super prop territory. This however isn't the game for that.

 

 

Completely different things. Also fly with stick and then tell me about the instructor.

Would a loosely historical hypothetical up-engine of the aircraft be ok you think? They wanted a Packard Merlin or an Allison paired with a jet engine. Would you say replacing the engines as they intended, to at least some capacity, is ok?

 

I don't want to see this as a super prop. That is where the planes that aren't flawless get ripped apart. They face jets and cannot compete. The P-51H and spit 24 are the only 2 that can really punch above their weight in that area.

 

Your notion about the late Japanese fighters is hardly nitpicking. That is informative and so it is helpful.

Edited by PickleJarOfDeath
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4 hours ago, PickleJarOfDeath said:

Would a loosely historical hypothetical up-engine of the aircraft be ok you think? They wanted a Packard Merlin or an Allison paired with a jet engine. Would you say replacing the engines as they intended, to at least some capacity, is ok?

 

I don't want to see this as a super prop. That is where the planes that aren't flawless get ripped apart. They face jets and cannot compete. The P-51H and spit 24 are the only 2 that can really punch above their weight in that area.

 

Your notion about the late Japanese fighters is hardly nitpicking. That is informative and so it is helpful.

 

Gaijin has done it for a few aircraft in game already so why not? That said the one main blocker to the up engine idea is that it was only ever proposed whereas the under powered version actually flew. You would be crossing into what if territory and TBH that is a can of worms I would rather stay out of if at all possible because P.1101/262HGs. There would have to have been some design changes to incorporate the mixed engine set up too.

 

With 2 3,000hp turboprops the thing would likely be the super prop equivalent to the Wyvern at 5.0. Can climb like mad up to about 12,000ft and the only thing that could catch it at low altitudes would be jets. Sounds good to me.

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I agree that it is unreasonable to give the plane any engine than what it had. Especially when the army refused to let it have new engines. I do think that giving the Continental engines their expected power of 1600hp would be fair, especially because it wouldn't make a huge difference (I don't think so anyway).

 

And as armament goes, I would be against giving it anything other than six 37mm cannons, because while no armament was actually fitted, the cannons were actually the final choice and the gun bays were installed on the actual plane.

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2 hours ago, mrparty1 said:

I agree that it is unreasonable to give the plane any engine than what it had. Especially when the army refused to let it have new engines. I do think that giving the Continental engines their expected power of 1600hp would be fair, especially because it wouldn't make a huge difference (I don't think so anyway).

 

The SO.8000 conundrum then pops up. Do you give it the realistic performance figures? I have yet to see Gaijin go this route but I understand why. Can of worms spoiler there though. Do you give it the calculated actual could be achieved figures if the engines gave their full expected power? It can be mathematically figured out for this airplane and it isn't too difficult. The performance increase would be rather nice too. It wouldn't be overly substantial but it would be appreciated. Or do you do what Gaijin did with the SO.8000? Give it its projected performance figures and to heck what it actually did.

 

Edit: As for the armament while the 6 37mm cannons were the final decision there were multiple options considered. While I do think the final decision should be respected it wouldn't be too far off to consider the others since nothing was actually put in.

Edited by silentrain
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I just saw the picks and its ... wow

I'm not a pilto and not a big fan of airplane but this is really a good thing to add in game for me, i didnt read any background yet but if my opinion count, i support this! =D

Thanks for sharing and for the suggestion hope it will see the light of war thunder soon!

meanwhile keep the good work

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14 hours ago, silentrain said:

 

The SO.8000 conundrum then pops up. Do you give it the realistic performance figures? I have yet to see Gaijin go this route but I understand why. Can of worms spoiler there though. Do you give it the calculated actual could be achieved figures if the engines gave their full expected power? It can be mathematically figured out for this airplane and it isn't too difficult. The performance increase would be rather nice too. It wouldn't be overly substantial but it would be appreciated. Or do you do what Gaijin did with the SO.8000? Give it its projected performance figures and to heck what it actually did.

The R2Y2 never existed. The R2Y1 did. The Y2 had a vastly different planned powerplant compared to the Y1. The Ho-229 V2 had different engines than was planned for the V3. They may have installed the engines on the V3 but the only one tested was the V2. I think it is safe to say that the boosting of the engines or replacement of the engines are both somewhere between a grey area and valid. The flight model calculators look at a lot of flight data that is entered in such as engine performance and behaviors, and the actual aircraft's performance. It then calculates the aerodynamic qualities of various parts of the aircraft based on these parameters. If we can boil this plane down to it's drag and lift coefficients, and then replace the engines in the blk files for the FM, we will have a very accurate representation of the modified hypothetical aircraft.

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17 hours ago, silentrain said:

You would be crossing into what if territory and TBH that is a can of worms I would rather stay out of if at all possible because P.1101/262HGs. There would have to have been some design changes to incorporate the mixed engine set up too.

Those didn't fly and so they have far more spotty information based on calculation and incomplete aerodynamic testing without actually throwing them into the air. The HG series has 1 and a half valid aircraft. The HG1 did fly iirc. The HG2 was very similar and had a different sweep angle that iirc was tested in a wind tunnel and given the rest of the airframe, means that is the main adjustment. The tail may or may not have been tested. Take that last statement with a Dead Sea of salt. The extrapolation and some synthesis of data and my previously mentioned fm design proposal should provide decent means to calculate the change of performance for both the HG2 and the XP-67 with the projected power and (half of) the later desired powerplant.

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On 2/22/2018 at 4:51 AM, PickleJarOfDeath said:

The three camouflages I will be producing are:

  • Standard olive drab with neutral grey countershading
    • Default
    • Historical
    • Original camouflage on the airframe
  • Bare metal
    • Purchasable and unlockable is my preference
    • Semi-historical
    • The plane was unpainted from start to finish of assembly (not including interior)
    • Did not have full markings until after camouflage was applied
  • Olive drab with night fighter black countershading
    • unlockable only and with highest requirement is my preference
    • Historical
    • Final camouflage on the airframe

 

Well, I don't really know the names of color schemes.

 

I hope the blue one is included bfb9990ad5e734656acce5e56680aee1_57664eb

Also, approximately how much time is left for this model? A rough estimation is better than nothing :)

 

And for how many GE are you willing to sell your model?

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8 hours ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

Well, I don't really know the names of color schemes.

 

I hope the blue one is included bfb9990ad5e734656acce5e56680aee1_57664eb

Also, approximately how much time is left for this model? A rough estimation is better than nothing :)

 

And for how many GE are you willing to sell your model?

It was not a navy project. Can I see the original photo of that without color? I am pretty sure I see a bit of where the official neutral grey countershading is supposed to be which was always paired with the official olive drab.

 

The model may be finished in a few weeks but that isn't even the last of it. I have to skin it and in order to do that I have to wait a couple weeks until I get a response from the National Archives and then I don't have any sense of how long it will take until I receive the 20 technical document files. This is also independent of the creation of the model just so you know. This is coming in parallel. The model also needs to then be configured in the cdk for all the animations. The flight model needs to be set up as well.

Edited by PickleJarOfDeath
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23 hours ago, PickleJarOfDeath said:

It was not a navy project. Can I see the original photo of that without color? I am pretty sure I see a bit of where the official neutral grey countershading is supposed to be which was always paired with the official olive drab.

 

The model may be finished in a few weeks but that isn't even the last of it. I have to skin it and in order to do that I have to wait a couple weeks until I get a response from the National Archives and then I don't have any sense of how long it will take until I receive the 20 technical document files. This is also independent of the creation of the model just so you know. This is coming in parallel. The model also needs to then be configured in the cdk for all the animations. The flight model needs to be set up as well.

 

Well, I don't know where the original picture is at anymore, but I have these

 

Related image

 

5e19f3a8736aae43ad8bdb775e273e61_3d3f942

Edited by EpicBlitzkrieg87
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If you look carefully at the underside of the nose there is a lighter region. That is the grey which is always paired with olive. Many of the photos are of poor quality and particularly from the side.

IMG_2474.JPG

 

between the white line and the propeller blade

Edited by PickleJarOfDeath
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OK, here's a little update:

I finally got the right shape for the main gear doors, which for some reason was causing me a lot of trouble. 

 

 

yaydoor.PNG

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