Deadelder

Bushes on tanks PTW

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 5:32 AM, Dodo_Dud said:

 

Well, I was refering to the mechanism of crew level in comparison to the mechanism of warbonds. I thought the parallel was made obvious, but I guess it wasn't obvious enough:

You will only aquire crew levels if you enter the crew level store and spend your accumulated crew xp. Just as you need to enter the warbond store to spend your accumulated war bonds. Without user intervention, no crew level or war bond item is aquired.

 

yes you can buy crew CP to max out FASTER. but the warbound shop is reset every month. see the difference? on the first hand NO MATTER WHAT your skill points never go away. on the other hand all that work you put into (or in my case limited time) is for nothing at the end of the cycle. just think how much of a pain it would be if you had your crew exp reset every 30 days if you don't spend it.

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2 minutes ago, Deadelder said:

yes you can buy crew CP to max out FASTER. but the warbound shop is reset every month. see the difference? on the first hand NO MATTER WHAT your skill points never go away. on the other hand all that work you put into (or in my case limited time) is for nothing at the end of the cycle. just think how much of a pain it would be if you had your crew exp reset every 30 days if you don't spend it.

 

If I don't spend my crew xp, it doesn't matter if they are limited (or even reset), as I take no advantage of them anyway. It will make no practical difference at all.

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On 2/10/2018 at 1:21 PM, zuadao said:

Other players have something that i would like to have, but i dont like to pay for stuff. Ill just go to the forums and rant about it. If i cant have it no one can.

 

I also dont have time to grind the warbond shop, guess ill waste more time creating a forum thread.

Except the part where you cant get the 6 bushes anymore :)

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On 11/02/2018 at 1:34 PM, ColdHeat said:

Argue against that and what would speak against a "turn them invisible" button and not some strawman argument you just made up, covered with some "all that whining, so childish" flavor to show how few confidence you actually have in your arguments.

You never answered those questions fully that counter your arguments, so lets just say - you neither have any confidence. 
Where I am fully confident and wont agree to OP or you. Yes you have the way to buy cammo or obtain it via some input from yourself. And that is NO way P2W. And honestly - none of us care what you like or don't like to do in the game. No one cares if you have or don't have enaugh time to play 2 - 4 battles, earn some warbonds and unlock the shop levels. You have a chance (same as everyone) - use it or not, up to you. 
It's truly childish to demand from developer to remove content that has been paid for or obtained by spending some time (like I did it with my cammo bushes, many premium tanks and planes). You want to have the option to switch it off? Okay, then I want to have a magic switch to switch off all enemy teams spaded vehicle modules, basic crew skills, aced crews, premium vehicles, event vehicles, ATGMs, same or higher BR vehicles and what not! :016:

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14 hours ago, eNVee1 said:

You never answered those questions fully that counter your arguments, so lets just say - you neither have any confidence. 
Where I am fully confident and wont agree to OP or you. Yes you have the way to buy cammo or obtain it via some input from yourself. And that is NO way P2W. And honestly - none of us care what you like or don't like to do in the game. No one cares if you have or don't have enaugh time to play 2 - 4 battles, earn some warbonds and unlock the shop levels. You have a chance (same as everyone) - use it or not, up to you. 
It's truly childish to demand from developer to remove content that has been paid for or obtained by spending some time (like I did it with my cammo bushes, many premium tanks and planes). You want to have the option to switch it off? Okay, then I want to have a magic switch to switch off all enemy teams spaded vehicle modules, basic crew skills, aced crews, premium vehicles, event vehicles, ATGMs, same or higher BR vehicles and what not! :016:

thank you for agreeing with me that Bushes are a huge advantage in RB/SB. but the difference between them and skills is that you wont loose your progress towards filling up the "bar" as it were to max out your crew. the WB shop is reset... so if you were just under what is required to get the bushes then to bad so sad you get nothing. otherwise you have to come out of pocket to buy them. same as a prem/reward tank. and again the difference is those tanks have weak spots to shoot to kill said tank. but if again said tank has so many bushes on it you cant even tell what the hell it is how will you know where to shoot? and all that time you just took to even get this far in spotting that tank he's already seen you, ranged you, and your now jumping in your AA because you have no bushes to cover up your tank... pay. to. win.

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8 hours ago, Deadelder said:

thank you for agreeing with me that Bushes are a huge advantage in RB/SB.

I never said that. However, I do agree that it is a slight advantage. And that's how it was intended to be, and I don't see a problem. 
 

8 hours ago, Deadelder said:

but the difference between them and skills is that you wont loose your progress towards filling up the "bar" as it were to max out your crew. the WB shop is reset... so if you were just under what is required to get the bushes then to bad so sad you get nothing. otherwise you have to come out of pocket to buy them. 

 Before I make my point, let me tell you a joke! It's not very polite one, but I hope mods won't mind, as it's a good one too! 

- Do you know what "nuance" is? 
- Nope, tell me!
- If I take your nose and stick it up in my a*s, then, technically speaking, we both have nose in the a*s. But there is a nuance...

You keep arguing, that this is a P2W (bushes via warbonds - system that is same for all, that has no way to be bought by cash). I completely disagree. Why? Again - because everyone has the same 2 options to get them. Pay or "grind" warbonds. The latter is free. Then comes your next argument, that for some players it's impossible to accomplish all the tasks and requirements to unlock the shop in time. I really don't care what your problem is, but for the sake of discussion... And this is where that "nuance" kicks in! You are trying to fight against bushes, where instead you should be fighting a different war. The one against "unfair" warbond system. Ask them to keep it unlocked for a longer time or forever until you buy something. ;)

 

8 hours ago, Deadelder said:

 and your now jumping in your AA because you have no bushes to cover up your tank... pay. to. win.

Nope, it's still free. Git gud, git bushez, club them all! :016:

 

Edited by eNVee1
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The only real issue with bushes is the players that got the 6-set of the big bush when it was here and can still use it. They can cover the front of their tanks to the points it's almost unrecognizable. Good luck accurately finding the weakspots like that when your target is (frontally) an armored tree. 

They need to either go back to 6 bushes available to everyone, or limit the use to 1 of each type, period.

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3 hours ago, ShinGetsu said:

They need to either go back to 6 bushes available to everyone, or limit the use to 1 of each type, period.

 

In other words, through warbonds it should be possible to aquire 6 of them, not just one. Dunno if that is currently possible, only got 2 so far for different bushes.

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On 14/02/2018 at 3:39 PM, eNVee1 said:

I do agree that it is a slight advantage. And that's how it was intended to be, and I don't see a problem.

Well  no sir , when you are unable to identify whats under literally a rolling bush ( let alone aim for a weak spot ) that's not called a " slight " advantage , thats a " H U G E " advantage !

 

Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-301-1955-32,_Nordshermantank.jpg5fwe5c9ohq4y.jpg

You don't see the problem ? I don't mind you , a nuancing issue certainly ;) .

 

Now i know you will jump to your favorite argument " yes but you can get them for free " . See because you can get them for free doesnt make them less P2W .

Indeed from the moment an object that gives such a big advantage can be purchased for money in a F2P game where players dont have/will to put money in order to perform well  (hence why choosing to play a F2P ) THATS THE EXACT DEFINITION OF P2W .

 

The main issue here  is not tank foliage per say but the wrong/unrealistic (images above speak better than me ) way Gaijin has chose to implement such a mechanic !

 

 

 

 

Edited by Raldi92
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4 hours ago, Raldi92 said:

(images above speak better than me )

Are you unable to identify tanks in image 1 & 2? 
Image Nr.3  - problem, that is being discussed here. Until some point Gaijin allowed to buy sets of same bushes. You can't anymore. Pay or grind. And you could choose even smaller tank for demo. :)
And if that feels unrealistic, go search some photos from real tank battles/training (Zapad, Belorussian vehicles come to mind) where you can't even tell the armor type (SPG/tank) because of bushes. And all that driving at full cruise speed.

 

4 hours ago, Raldi92 said:

Now i know you will jump to your favorite argument " yes but you can get them for free " . See because you can get them for free doesnt make them less P2W .

Indeed from the moment an object that gives such a big advantage can be purchased for money in a F2P game where players dont have/will to put money in order to perform well  (hence why choosing to play a F2P ) THATS THE EXACT DEFINITION OF P2W .

It is free, so you must pay! Please stop here, I am getting out! o_o We have a saying - not so bright persons may get spanked even in church... 
Let me wrap it for you! You have to pay IF you are not patient enough to get it for free while PLAYING THE GAME THAT YOU PLAY ANYWAY. Ok, don't get spanked, sir! And don't jump to assumptions.   
 

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1 minute ago, eNVee1 said:

Are you unable to identify tanks in image 1 & 2?

 

His point was that in image 1 & 2 you can still clearly identify the tank. In picture 3 you cannot.

 

1 minute ago, eNVee1 said:

And if that feels unrealistic, go search some photos from real tank battles/training (Zapad, Belorussian vehicles come to mind) where you can't even tell the armor type (SPG/tank) because of bushes. And all that driving at full cruise speed.

 

Why don't you simply provide them to support your point?

 

1 minute ago, eNVee1 said:

It is free, so you must pay! Please stop here, I am getting out! o_o We have a saying - not so bright persons may get spanked even in church... 

 

Beware such sayings in a discussion as they can be very quickly used against oneself.

 

So to once again explain his point as you seem to jump to weird conclusions of what you think (or pretend) he said:

Especially in F2P titles there's a large percentage of people not willing to invest money and in general there's a large percentage of people who despise to jump on every grind train. This combined makes up for a large percentage that don't want to grind/pay for/use camo - for multiple reasons. You can estimate the percentage simply by watching your teammates in a match that don't use bushes/decoration compared to those who do it - and compared to those who do it to full effect with all decal slots used, either aquired by long lastig grind, past benefits or more likely money. It's not a wild guess to claim that the majority is without said benefits.

 

The effect is in any way - either by money or the will to grind - you aquire a severe ingame advantage. And that's also the point why you, along with others, defend them so much. Or for which other reason do you act thus protective when someone makes the suggestion that there should be an invisibility button introduced that actually fulfills what Gaijin had promised before the introduction: That bushes and decorations would never make a difference.

 

There's actually no arguing about the OP and the title of the thread. The moment you sell ingame advantages for money - even if only to speed up a grind process - a game walks down the P2W road. There's a discussion possible about the effective severeness but not if this specific mechanic of bushes being available for money is already P2W or not.

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19 hours ago, eNVee1 said:

Are you unable to identify tanks in image 1 & 2? 
Image Nr.3  - problem, that is being discussed here. Until some point Gaijin allowed to buy sets of same bushes. You can't anymore. Pay or grind. And you could choose even smaller tank for demo. :)
And if that feels unrealistic, go search some photos from real tank battles/training (Zapad, Belorussian vehicles come to mind) where you can't even tell the armor type (SPG/tank) because of bushes. And all that driving at full cruise speed.

 

It is free, so you must pay! Please stop here, I am getting out! o_o We have a saying - not so bright persons may get spanked even in church... 
Let me wrap it for you! You have to pay IF you are not patient enough to get it for free while PLAYING THE GAME THAT YOU PLAY ANYWAY. Ok, don't get spanked, sir! And don't jump to assumptions.   
 

 

Sadly the only one jumping on assumptions here is you sir !  English is not my native language but ColdHeat reply made clear that im not the one to blame for your comprehension issues .

 

17 hours ago, ShinGetsu said:

The problem here is not only the bushes. It's the fact only players that bought 6 of them when it was possible are able to do that, but the players that got bushes after that, can't anymore.

 

Altough i see what you mean ( and i agree thats not fair ) in some way it's better the way it is ( as long as bushes stay at their actual state ) . Let's assume all players have the ability to put 6 of them , how is this going to resolve the main issue ? It's only going to make things worst .

 

I strongly believe that the heart of the matter are bushes indeed or to better say the way they are implemented . If Gaijin had made from the start realistic tank foliage ( tank crews used mainly tree branches and small stuff like that ) instead of those huge and thick garden bushes we would not be here to talk about it to begin with . You could put as many as 6 or  even more branches on your tank without being able to make the entire tank a rolling tree , thus making everyone happy  . At least this is my point of view .

Edited by Raldi92
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On ‎09‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 2:02 PM, oSCar said:

 

Ok, 2 questions for you;  Which camo?....and where's the bush?

 

With German tanks I'm using the standard summer bi-color camo cranked down to 20% size. When your parked in amongst the shrubs partially concealing your self and breaking up your shape the camo will mimic the coloring, shaping, particle patterns the developers used the render the bushes so unless someone on the other team has a good set of eyes or if their using the low graphics exploit they usually won't spot you until you shoot or move. As for the bushes I can't give you a straight answer exactly. Which ever maps have green foliage and I usually park along flanks(edges of maps) behind the frontlines as I tend to setup camp near team spawn points to catch flankers and spawn campers I also like to try and get a good vantage point where I can see a good chunk of the battlefield and pick off unsuspecting tankers.( I also do quite a bit of hill and rock climbing.)

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On 15/02/2018 at 11:04 PM, ColdHeat said:

His point was that in image 1 & 2 you can still clearly identify the tank. In picture 3 you cannot.

Thank you captain! And now put the Nr.2 hull-down... Good luck with seeing or identification from far away! :D

On 15/02/2018 at 11:04 PM, ColdHeat said:

Why don't you simply provide them to support your point?

 

On 16/02/2018 at 6:15 PM, Raldi92 said:

If Gaijin had made from the start realistic tank foliage ( tank crews used mainly tree branches and small stuff like that ) instead of those huge and thick garden bushes we would not be here to talk about it to begin with .

Honestly I am too lazy to look up for that particular video (I do not remember the news channel where I saw it), but here you go with just few more images, generated by google search... 
https://flames-m58ip69dfg.netdna-ssl.com/portals/0/all_images/Modelling/Blending-In-11.jpg
http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/ffmq-c5-25b2.jpg
End of discussion?
 

On 15/02/2018 at 11:04 PM, ColdHeat said:

The moment you sell ingame advantages for money - even if only to speed up a grind process - a game walks down the P2W road. There's a discussion possible about the effective severeness but not if this specific mechanic of bushes being available for money is already P2W or not.

In that case, sticking to your logic, this game is, was and always will be P2W, and therefore there is completely no reason to complain about it, because we all know it. You can get tech-tree and premium vehicles, modules, crews slots, crew exp., camo... nearly everything with GE/bundles. It's all up to you - pay for speeding up or grind. As I said previously, you may or may not like the warbond system, but it's there and it works. And if you invest some thinking time in it, you will find out that it is very easy to get enough warbonds for camo, even if you play not so much battles per day.   

 

On 16/02/2018 at 6:15 PM, Raldi92 said:

English is not my native language but ColdHeat reply made clear that im not the one to blame for your comprehension issues .

Not my native either, so excuse my mistakes please! Still I don't think that I have any language induced comprehension issues. It's just that I am not happily jumping in the same whiners bandwagon and don't agree with you.
 

On 15/02/2018 at 11:04 PM, ColdHeat said:

And that's also the point why you, along with others, defend them so much. Or for which other reason do you act thus protective when someone makes the suggestion that there should be an invisibility button introduced 

Of course I am defending my own time and effort spent to acquire these items. And I do not see any viable reason to negate the effect of it by someone who is too dumb or lazy to do the same. 
I hate most of situations where smoke is used. I need a switch, because it's p2w too. You can pay GE to get it mounted on your tank. And it hides them even more effectively... :D Or I could start a discussion that this module RP cost is too high, I play too few battles per day, it's so unfair, because I can't have it on my T-34-85s and other tanks at all. Should I? Or should I just accept some diversity and learn how to deal with it?   

On a more serious note.. I believe there was only 1, very typical p2w (and sever advantage) case in WT. And that was (arguably still is) the IS-6. Yes, I got it too out of curiosity, tested it. And since that moment I strongly voted to fix the issue asap, because it was ridiculously overpowered. I am telling you this only to prove that I can and will side with true issue reporters, even if I could have my own good of it. Foliage camo IMHO does not qualify as such. Period. 

PS. I feel I have said enough here and presented arguments for "the other side". I want you to know that I do respect your opinions and I can understand your points, I just disagree with the title. Thank you for discussion!        



 

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On 20/02/2018 at 4:17 PM, eNVee1 said:

Honestly I am too lazy to look up for that particular video (I do not remember the news channel where I saw it), but here you go with just few more images, generated by google search... 

https://flames-m58ip69dfg.netdna-ssl.com/portals/0/all_images/Modelling/Blending-In-11.jpg
http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/ffmq-c5-25b2.jpg
End of discussion?

So you managed to get two images showing tanks under heavy camo and you are supposed  to have proven something  with this ?I could post dozens of pics proving my point of view . 

 

Regardless you should know that the camo you  show on those images was generaly used in static positions or/and to hide tanks from aerial threats . From the moment a tank starts to move/maneuvrate it will loose a lot of this foliage  ( let alone if it's under enemy fire ) . 

Now none of these situations apply to WT since tanks in WT rarely stay static during the entire game  hence why calling this type of camo unrealistic . 

 

You fail to understand what the core issue is because you are too much focused to the advantage you gain from it !  

 

I will put the problem this way  so maybe  you have a chance to get the issue :  Let's imagine bushes are good the way they are etc . Let's also imagine that after a fair amount of time a big majority of players will unlock them ( by X or Y way ) and use them . What do we end up ???? 

 

Armored trees on tracks  blindly shooting each other !

 

Is this what peoples expect to play when they choose to play WT RB/SB  ground forces  ? It is as simple as that . 

 

Edited by Raldi92
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On 15.2.2018 at 9:38 PM, eNVee1 said:

And if that feels unrealistic, go search some photos from real tank battles/training (Zapad, Belorussian vehicles come to mind) where you can't even tell the armor type (SPG/tank) because of bushes. And all that driving at full cruise speed.

 

On 20.2.2018 at 4:17 PM, eNVee1 said:

Honestly I am too lazy to look up for that particular video (I do not remember the news channel where I saw it), but here you go with just few more images, generated by google search... 

https://flames-m58ip69dfg.netdna-ssl.com/portals/0/all_images/Modelling/Blending-In-11.jpg
http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/ffmq-c5-25b2.jpg
End of discussion?

 

 

...

 

You realize yourself the difference between what you claimed and what you provided, don't you?

 

Quote

In that case, sticking to your logic, this game is, was and always will be P2W, and therefore there is completely no reason to complain about it, because we all know it.

 

First: No, that wasn't what I said.

Second: "There's no reason to complain about it because we all know it". Yes we all also know that feminists are spoiled brats who actually only argue for their own sake than true equality. Now let's never argue about it from now on ever again and just give them what they want. What absurd, fatalistic logic is that?

 

Quote

And if you invest some thinking time in it, you will find out that it is very easy to get enough warbonds for camo, even if you play not so much battles per day.   

 

We're going in a circle. I already explicated that the ability for the most dedicated players like us to get such an advantage over the others doesn't make it any more right to sell or obtain such advantages in the first place... with the sole intention of not getting "decoration" but an advantage. 

 

And how easy is it exactly right now to get those 6 branches of the same bush in order to even up chances with those who bought them back then? ;)

 

 

Quote

 

Not my native either, so excuse my mistakes please! Still I don't think that I have any language induced comprehension issues. It's just that I am not happily jumping in the same whiners bandwagon and don't agree with you.

 

His point was that you're unable to make a lasting point or comprehend and acknowledge the argument of another. And the fact that you try to use rather infantile ridiculing such as "whiner's" in order to make your point shows that you don't believe in the strength of your arguments yourself. Right now you're arguing solely out of the intention of keeping an advantage over others. 

 

Quote

Of course I am defending my own time and effort spent to acquire these items.

 

Oh? So you're not simply happy with what beautiful decoration you have aquired? :good: I rest my case.

 

The problem is that no matter what your intention is: Gaijin made a promise back then that these decorations wouldn't influence the battle in any way or could be used as an unfair advantage. Despite all my antipathy for people who defend to the teeth any advantage obtainable by money they can get because they seem to think they need them: I'm only asking that the developers simply keep their word.

 

Otherwise when you promote some new feature as "not an ingame advantage" and when you sell them people find out they indeed make up for a severe advantage.. and you keep selling them.. well than it's P2W.

 

 

 

And as Raldi perfectly put it: I don't want to play Bush Thunder, where everyone drives around in tanks barely being able to be indentified as those. Or do you actually? Because that's where we're heading

Edited by ColdHeat
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On ‎2‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 8:17 AM, eNVee1 said:

 

 

Of course I am defending my own time and effort spent to acquire these items. And I do not see any viable reason to negate the effect of it by someone who is too dumb or lazy to do the same. ....


....PS. I feel I have said enough here and presented arguments for "the other side". I want you to know that I do respect your opinions and I can understand your points, I just disagree with the title. Thank you for discussion!        



 

yeah not a hypocrite at all!!!

 

1 not dumb

2 not lazy

 

just don't have the time to sit in this game for 6 hours a day trying to complete a few tasks to earn a pittance of a reward that will just be reset before I even get the level requirement to grab the damn bush.

 

there for, again P2W.

 

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4 minutes ago, Deadelder said:

so as of me logging in today I was almost 1/2 way though lvl 3... now its reset... so yeah..

So you have another month to do this shop before it resets:salute:

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3 hours ago, Deadelder said:

just don't have the time to sit in this game for 6 hours a day trying to complete a few tasks to earn a pittance of a reward that will just be reset before I even get the level requirement to grab the damn bush.

 

there for, again P2W.

 

Fact is, you can get there with just 1 game every day plus one day every other month doing a little more. Here you see my flower power tank with the 3 free herbs I grinded. No pay2win involved! I likely get another one in march.

(Just slapped it on the front for this pic, so take no offense if it isn't aligned nice or clever.)

 

5a9a775d67c58_shot2018_03_0311_20_43.thu

 

3 hours ago, Deadelder said:

so as of me logging in today I was almost 1/2 way though lvl 3... now its reset... so yeah..

 

I know, March started unexpectably early this year.

Edited by Dodo_Dud
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I think a better compromise would have been that you can buy 2 Bushes per type. And additionally to that you can get 4 Bushes per type by getting that Chest in the War Bond Shop. It would not be massive PTW and people still would have to "Grind" the majority to get to the 6 bushes per type.

 

At least I would have preferred that solution because for now the guys who bought the 6 bushes will always have an advantage that nobody else will be able to get either by paying or grinding.

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A change they could easily make that I think would tone down some of the more ridiculous bush configurations is to just make the RB gunsight be blocked by bushes that cover the aiming optics, just as it is for sim. In sim if your gun optics are blocked by bushes, good luck shooting anyone through your gunsight.

In RB one could always just cover the optics and then always use 3rd person view and the circular aiming pipper, but that really only works modestly well at short ranges. At moderate to long range, or when you need to aim more carefully for certain parts of the tank, you really need that gunsight view. 

Also, while it's sometimes possible, especially with smaller vehicles, to just make ridiculously buried weed configurations, it's often the case that a modest application of weeds is more effective.

This configuration, for instance, is more effective than just burying the tank in weeds:
3D60C6D80EF390266666C9A57F0F30A0A702F69C

 

As you can see, there are only two weeds on this thing.

26F117F13699908F51264BDC2AE04D5F49C16C0A

 

 

I've got a similar weed setup with my tri-color winter camo for this vehicle. It uses only three weeds, of the dark green kind that turn white in a snowy map. The tank blends in far better with that modest application of weeds than it would if completely buried by them.

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Bushes have been Pay To Make Easy since day one and they will remain that way no matter how much you tone down their foliage. 

 

I'm not for bushes, at all. I'll never buy a bush as it's a waste of money, even though I could just buy whatever I wanted, and while I can get them for free I don't even see a point of wasting my time when I can maybe get other things in the WarBond shop.

 

I'm also not really fully arguing against bsues because it's just one more issue to try and balance out, which again I guess would be toning down foliage, and right now there are just endless issues to try and prevent and balance. 

 

Bushes have though always been a great pain to me due to the fact I've faced way too many supermen E-2's,and was forced to guess where the machine port was far too many times. But I'm sure bushes have been a great money maker and more then likely will continue to do so. 

 

500 GE for a bush decoration is just crazy so they better have been making some good flow there. 

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