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Fixing Ground RB - Community opinion


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Fixing Gorund RB - Community Opinion  

87 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you want a major update focused on polishing the game and fixing gameplay and game mechanics, rather than adding now content?

    • Yes
      77
    • No
      6
    • Undecided
      4
  2. 2. Are you currently satisfied with in game damage models and hit boxes?

    • Yes they are more than adequate
      9
    • No they need re-working
      47
    • Only limited issues are seen, so this isnt a high priority issue
      31
  3. 3. Would you want to see an overhall of round penetration to more correctly represent historical perfeance of certain rounds?

    • Yes - Some rounds are extremely inconsistent, and need work to balance the game
      55
    • No - I am happy with the current performance of rounds such as APDS
      5
    • If there is proof that there are issues yes id like to see changes
      27
  4. 4. Would you like to see match making reworked?

    • Yes - something needs to be done to even out the gameplay
      74
    • No - The game is well balanced as is
      6
    • Undecided - Im unsure any changes would fix anything
      7
  5. 5. Would you support the idea of a premium players section allowing more streamlined conversation with devs about in game issues?

    • Yes fully support it
      13
    • Yes - however topic would have to gather support in normal forums first before being aloowed to be added to this forum area
      14
    • No this encourages elitism
      29
    • No as it gives players unfair preference
      17
    • Undecided
      14
  6. 6. Do you want to see all maps added back into rotation at every BR?

    • Yes
      34
    • Yes, though some maps may need to be left out
      44
    • No i like the current map rotaion system
      3
    • No the other maps wouldnt fix the issues
      4
    • Undecided
      2
  7. 7. Would you like to see new gamemodes introduced into GFRB

    • Yes
      55
    • No
      15
    • Undecided
      17
  8. 8. Do you believe there are problems with current map design?

    • Yes - certain spawns get massive advantages over the enemy
      34
    • Yes - though only some maps need attention
      30
    • Yes - however only make changes if it makes the playing field balanced and fair
      16
    • No - it means gameplay is always different depending on what side you spawn on
      2
    • No - i like current map design
      4
    • Undecided
      1
  9. 9. Should SPAAG plane kill rewards be increased to level with plane vs plane kills?

    • Yes - they are both killing the same target so rewards should be equal, while also naturally nerfing planes
      74
    • No - SPAAG dont need any increases in rewards
      5
    • Undecided
      8
  10. 10. Should kills net the same reward reguardless of whether youre sniping or face to face fighting

    • Yes - rewards should always be consistent reguardless of play style
      76
    • No - snipers should get less rewards
      4
    • No - face to face should get less rewards
      2
    • Undecided
      5
  11. 11. Should non premium rewards get a slight buff (20%) to make it more feasible for players to make SL without premium vehicles and accounts?

    • Yes
      45
    • Yes - But more than 20%
      8
    • Yes - but less than 20%
      8
    • No - the economy is balanced as is
      13
    • Undecided
      13


So as many of you will know there was a thread up a couple days ago that was targeted at addressing the issues us players feel need to be ammended in the game and particuarly in Ground forces. Now this thread wont go to far into Air forces, only in ways that air forces impact ground forces battles, as this is on the ground forces sub forum and as i have less experience with air battles i wont go poking my nose into that. Hence why this sub forum was chosen for this thread.

 

Before we start i want to lay out some ground rules that based on reasoning of the last thread being closed will help this one stay up. (If mods want to add anything or remove anything please do.) 

Thread Rules

1. Please do not break any of the obvious forum rules, such as starting flame wars, telling people not to play the game, bad language, or abusive messages targeted at Gaijin, the forum staff or fellow members.

2. Please do not go down the road of saying "The devs dont care" "they wont listen" "They hate us" "they only want our money" ect...

3. If at all possible support any claims with evidence.

4. Keep this thread freindly and appropriate so that its presentable to the Devs.

5. If you disagree with any issues raised please comment in a civalised manner.

6. Please vote on the poll before adding suggestion, dont just regurgate whats already been said, when new issues arise ill add them to the poll.

7. ALWAYS remember this is Gaijins game and they can run it as they please, we are guests, some of us paying guests, some of us free, however everyones opinions are valid and carry the same importance.

8. Avoid turning this into a mess of arguements about planes in GFRB and such, thats not what this thread is about.

 

Now that those rules are out of the way, hopefully this thread wont be removed, as long as everyone stays within the rules set by the forum and the rules above that will keep this thread on topic.

 

As the thread develops ill update this original post with different ideas and their justification for why we believe they should be focused on.

 

1. Major update focusing on game mechanics and game play improvements

 

The First change that seems to be widely supported is a majot update away form new content to adress issues that have slowly built up in game over the years, while we understand Gaijin works through bugs and issues as frequently as possible, it is only possible to fix so much. Some issues are too large to run as a hot patch, or would take too much time to feasibly do. These issues encompass much of what will be discussed in the following points. This is at number one as completion of this would allow for many other issues to be fixed.

 

2. Consistency and improvements with damage models

 

This covers issues players are finding with hit boxes, and issues with the consistency of damage mechanics, as an example damaging the barrel of a tank seems random at best, sometimes a couple of SPAAG rounds will render the barrel unuseable, while sometimes a 120mm APHE round will simply do nothing to the barrel at all. This also includes 'blackhole' on tanks that for some reason eat rounds with no explanation, APDS rounds and tracks/suspenion arms are one of the most common issue with this.

 

3. Reworking of rounds and penetration mechanics for certain rounds

 

As im sure many are aware of one of the biggest gripes that players who play the allies have had for a long time is issues with the performance of APDS rounds. This has been brought up in multiple threads covering issues from penetration figures, to post pen effect, and strange slopping mechanics against APDS. This particular point will be update with reasoning behind the issue as the thread develops please feel free to leave information or resources that demonstrate this issue.

 

4. Match making overhall

 

Seemingly something that has become more and more apparent recently, is issues with matchmaking for different nations. Now i want to prefice this by saying i understand that there will obviously be issues with fixing this as reguardless of what happens there will always be holes and issues, its just how player density works. This issue is furthered by the current mechanics in place that dont balance BRs present in game at all, in the current set up there is no system that actually makes sure the number of top BR tanks is balanced or that there isnt 1 top BR and the rest are bottom BR vs a team with a full allocation of top BR and very few bottom BR tanks, leading to exptremely unbalanced game play. A perfect example of broken BRs is in the 8.0-9.0 range where 8.0 tanks are essentially unplayable in 9.0 match making, unless of course you are playing USSR. However ill add this as i know alot of players have great input on this, and have fantastic suggestions. Something needs to be done to fix player weight sitting at certain BRs making some tnaks near unplayable, whilst still being able to balance wait times, again this will be updated as opinions and ideas are added.

 

5. Premium player forum section

 

This is the idea of having a section of the forum which i locked out much like the beta sections, that is dedicated to areas of the game no longer in beta, it would be focused on allowing players to convey ideas more directly to devs. How this would work in a fair and just way would need some work. Obviously a lot of rubbish is posted in the forums, and alot of hate is directed towards gaijin. So it would be a zero tolerance forum area if you break strict rules you would be removed. It would be avaliable to the most senior players ie those who have played a large number of games, and to players whom have spent a large amount of money whiislt still playing x amount of games. Posts would have to be approved before being allowed in. The idea of this type of forum area would be to let Gaijin access the valuable resource that is player opinion, in a far more direct and streamlined fashion. Other ideas would be only content that has gathered high enough support from the community in different forums would be able to be moved to this forum section. This isnt an idea trying to create an elitist culture in war thunder, rather a more direct way to discuss issues that dont fit into the suggestions or bug reporting mold.

 

6. Map rotation

 

One of the biggest issues currently for a lot of players is map rotation, this issue has lead to alot of players leaving their vehicle at the start of battles simply because they dont want to play said map which then puts their team at a disadvantage. A simply solution would be to reintroduce as many maps into rotation as possible maybe some maps arent going to work but having 15 maps in rotation at each br group would lead to less repeatitive gameplay, and would make the less enjoyable maps more tollerable as they would only show up once ever 15 or so.

 

7. New game modes

 

One big thing that players are starting to get bored by is the lack of varity of game modes, essentially 65% of games are domination, and the 35% split between conquest and battle, and its been that way for a long time now. Break wasnt with out its issues but had a slightly different gameplay dynamic but has now seemingly completely disappeared. New game modes would quickly change the tatics of battle, and intoduce the player to different ways of playing. This will be updated as players suggest different gamemodes theyd like to see.

 

8. Map design

 

A simple one that has been an issue for players for awhile now, random terrain, definite benefits to spawning on one side or the other, unequal terrain, Lack of cover on certain maps, cities being to small and forcing players to fight in the same straight lines are always, unkillable sniper nests.

 

9. Economy and rewards

 

This is more so targeted at non premium player rewards, where 4 kills and no deaths using stock rounds will often only net you 9000SL, to be fair to Gaijin buffs to rewards for caping points is a nice thing to have done. However reducing rewards for sniper kills seems odd to say the least, in fairness to all players rewards for kills should stay the same reguardless if they are from 10m or 2000m. Buffs to SPAAG rewards is a must to encourage SPAAG to look to the skies and forget about their dreams of killing an IS-6. Simply having SPAAG kills on planes being eqial to that of plane vs plane kills makes alot of sense, and would encourage more players to use SPAAG for its reall purpose, which in turn would also decrease the effectiveness of planes, and would lead to less players complaining about planes in RB. Non premium rewards are 20% too low, forcing players toward premium vehicles and premium accounts, i understand why it is like this, as it is an economy designed to gently encourage players to become premium users.

 

 

This is just the start of the list, these ideas were pulled directly from what players said on the old thread, and the ideas that have been supported on the old thread. This is an equal opinions forum, and an equal opinions topic, iof you disagree lewt yourself be heard, if you agree support ideas in the discussion. No ones opinion is more important then anyone elses, keep the chat friendly, and discuss the disagreements rather than abuse eachother, share your views and opinions as to why you feel each way. If at any point you notice an idea has gone unheard and not added tot he poll or the original topic DM me and ill add it. This is our chance as a group of players to discuss this and hopefully this can lead to seeing atleast some of the change we want added to the game. I want to hear everyones opinions on this, even if its just telling me im an idiot. If there are any people breaking rules in here best believe your post will be gone. Anyone breaking the rules ive set based on forum rules and Stona's comments on the last thread, i will request to have their contributions removed, as you ar eonly hurting the cause. 

 

Thank you in advance to everyone who has read through all this and who shares their thoughs and ideas on this topic. :good:

 

 

 

 

Edited by Where_Is_Zedong
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41 minutes ago, Where_Is_Zedong said:

 

 

1. Major update focusing on game mechanics and game play improvements

 

The First change that seems to be widely supported is a majot update away form new content to adress issues that have slowly built up in game over the years, while we understand Gaijin works through bugs and issues as frequently as possible, it is only possible to fix so much. Some issues are too large to run as a hot patch, or would take too much time to feasibly do. These issues encompass much of what will be discussed in the following points. This is at number one as completion of this would allow for many other issues to be fixed.

 

2. Consistency and improvements with damage models

 

This covers issues players are finding with hit boxes, and issues with the consistency of damage mechanics, as an example damaging the barrel of a tank seems random at best, sometimes a couple of SPAAG rounds will render the barrel unuseable, while sometimes a 120mm APHE round will simply do nothing to the barrel at all. This also includes 'blackhole' on tanks that for some reason eat rounds with no explanation, APDS rounds and tracks/suspenion arms are one of the most common issue with this.

 

3. Reworking of rounds and penetration mechanics for certain rounds

 

As im sure many are aware of one of the biggest gripes that players who play the allies have had for a long time is issues with the performance of APDS rounds. This has been brought up in multiple threads covering issues from penetration figures, to post pen effect, and strange slopping mechanics against APDS. This particular point will be update with reasoning behind the issue as the thread develops please feel free to leave information or resources that demonstrate this issue.

 

4. Match making overhall

 

Seemingly something that has become more and more apparent recently, is issues with matchmaking for different nations. Now i want to prefice this by saying i understand that there will obviously be issues with fixing this as reguardless of what happens there will always be holes and issues, its just how player density works. However ill add this as i know alot of players have great input on this, and have fantastic suggestions. Something needs to be done to fix player weight sitting at certain BRs making some tnaks near unplayable, whilst still being able to balance wait times, again this will be updated as opinions and ideas are added.

 

5. Premium player forum section

 

This is the idea of having a section of the forum which i locked out much like the beta sections, that is dedicated to areas of the game no longer in beta, it would be focused on allowing players to convey ideas more directly to devs. How this would work in a fair and just way would need some work. Obviously a lot of rubbish is posted in the forums, and alot of hate is directed towards gaijin. So it would be a zero tolerance forum area if you break strict rules you would be removed. It would be avaliable to the most senior players ie those who have played a large number of games, and to players whom have spent a large amount of money whiislt still playing x amount of games. Posts would have to be approved before being allowed in. The idea of this type of forum area would be to let Gaijin access the valuable resource that is player opinion, in a far more direct and streamlined fashion. Other ideas would be only content that has gathered high enough support from the community in different forums would be able to be moved to this forum section. This isnt an idea trying to create an elitist culture in war thunder, rather a more direct way to discuss issues that dont fit into the suggestions or bug reporting mold.

 

6. Map rotation

 

One of the biggest issues currently for a lot of players is map rotation, this issue has lead to alot of players leaving their vehicle at the start of battles simply because they dont want to play said map which then puts their team at a disadvantage. A simply solution would be to reintroduce as many maps into rotation as possible maybe some maps arent going to work but having 15 maps in rotation at each br group would lead to less repeatitive gameplay, and would make the less enjoyable maps more tollerable as they would only show up once ever 15 or so.

 

7. New game modes

 

One big thing that players are starting to get bored by is the lack of varity of game modes, essentially 65% of games are domination, and the 35% split between conquest and battle, and its been that way for a long time now. Break wasnt with out its issues but had a slightly different gameplay dynamic but has now seemingly completely disappeared. New game modes would quickly change the tatics of battle, and intoduce the player to different ways of playing. This will be updated as players suggest different gamemodes theyd like to see.

 

8. Map design

 

A simple one that has been an issue for players for awhile now, random terrain, definite benefits to spawning on one side or the other, unequal terrain, Lack of cover on certain maps, cities being to small and forcing players to fight in the same straight lines are always, unkillable sniper nests.

 

9. Economy and rewards

 

This is more so targeted at non premium player rewards, where 4 kills and no deaths using stock rounds will often only net you 9000SL, to be fair to Gaijin buffs to rewards for caping points is a nice thing to have done. However reducing rewards for sniper kills seems odd to say the least, in fairness to all players rewards for kills should stay the same reguardless if they are from 10m or 2000m. Buffs to SPAAG rewards is a must to encourage SPAAG to look to the skies and forget about their dreams of killing an IS-6. Simply having SPAAG kills on planes being eqial to that of plane vs plane kills makes alot of sense, and would encourage more players to use SPAAG for its reall purpose, which in turn would also decrease the effectiveness of planes, and would lead to less players complaining about planes in RB. Non premium rewards are 20% too low, forcing players toward premium vehicles and premium accounts, i understand why it is like this, as it is an economy designed to gently encourage players to become premium users.

 

#1-i feel has become somewhat of an understood need; most people i see in the WT communities would be fine with a massive bug blasting patch.

#2-The DM needs a serious rework overall; especially how it handles projectiles. Most issues we have currently would vanish if shells were represented by three points (X being Length Y being Caliber and Z being height) Anything else would be slope modifers or an actual modeling issue which we have plenty on.

#3-Mostly explained by Reason 2

#4- .7 Spread could be implemented; even at 3AM when i'm half asleep there's 20k players on.

#5-No; just reform the WTPC and give them a contact to gajin. (Scarper or the tech mod for sim) There's no reason i find acceptable to have things discussed in a filter bubble. Trolls here are expunged quickly; allowing public discussion and discourse. By having this section you would introduce the ability for a suggestion that gained support on a public fourm to mutate into something completely different upon implementation; also transparency is something we've pushed for on gaijins end. So this really seems like a step back

#6-I would say from Tier III onward let it rip; Tiers I and II  i believe should be excluded from rolling fulda or maginot.

#7-breaking the "capture the circle" meta would be nice; i would personally like more realistic objectives like "Hold the bridge" where you would have to hold the bridge into a city for a set period (The area past would all be out of bounds until the period past). While the enemy could use torps or heavy bombs to nuke it; or cap it back. "Dynamic Objective" is what i would call it.

#8-Yeah this is something that needs to be adressed.

#9-Earnings in GF RB need to be equalized with at least Air Arcade; it's sad i can play one game in AF AB and earn 3x a RB GF match.

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good thread Zedong.

 

1. Major update focusing on game mechanics and game play improvements

 

on a dedicated bug fix & features patch, i'm strongly in favor of this. i don't mind if there's a vehicle or two added (or if live server-ready vehicles are artificially postponed to beef up the patch after), but i think that at some point, in an upcoming patch, there should be a dedicated effort to stamp out bugs, correct errors, add long-awaited features (i.e Regenerative Steering), add new ammo choices like the M82-variants previously considered "unnecessary", remove ammo choices that actually ARE unnecessary and only make for a needlessly painful grind (M46, M47 and their pair of completely useless APCR rounds) differentiating between same name ammos (20-pounder and early 105mm APDS vs mid-cold war APDS) and otherwise give the game a big new spit & polish.

 

hell, update the art assets! you have to admit it'd be nice to see something new as for as initial game loading screens on default background music. it's been 5 years after all.

 

2. Consistency and improvements with damage models

 

YES PLEASE. some damage model derpiness and bugs have very real consequences ingame. just taking the Tiger Is for example- how many times have you fired a shell with 200+mm of penetration at less than 100 meters distance... only to have the driver hatch or the protruding MG ball magically eat the entire shell? enraging stuff like that is why people say that WT sometimes has broken angling or penetration mechanics.

 

3. Reworking of rounds and penetration mechanics for certain rounds

 

so to me it's not so much JUST the ongoing rework of ammo, it's gaijin NOT EXPLAINING what is happening or giving forewarning.

this is the same exact issue that Valve has with CS:GO that has caused uproars and controversy in that game. and that issue that CS:GO and WT share is: many parts of WT at higher tiers are VERY delicately balanced, and if you screw with something for whatever reason, especially if it plays a significant role in the current meta, you could bring the whole system down on your head. if gaijin had given... say a one or two week heads up like "hey just want you all to know, APDS is going to be changing significantly, and documents we've collected show that APDS greatly overperforms" that would be understandable- especially if there was all the documentation provided for people to at least just pore over. sure major changes like APDS no longer being the slope slayer will always rankle somebody, but forewarned is forearmed, and not being blindsided will not feel like one certain nation is getting a huge buff in the way of every other nation getting their collective punching power taken away.

 

4. Match making overhall

 

below 5.3 BR in tank AB and RB, the 1.0 spread is alright. it provides enough room for the playerbase to balance itself out. above 5.3 in both modes (and from 8.0-9.0 in air RB) however... things get ugly VERY fast. being max uptiered is painful, and rightfully so... but when you get max uptiered ALL the time to a point where a certain BR becomes a black hole of unchallenged seal clubbing (6.3, 7.7, 9.0 and 9.0 air RB) it shows that the self-balancing act has broken down.

gaijin NEEDS to at least perform a test on the live server at battle ratings 5.3-9.0 (and inform us beforehand) with the matchmaker spread capping at .9 (same as .7 really) instead of 1.0. the big worry about contracting the matchmaker spread is a sudden increase in matchmaking times. i think that worry needs to be countered/confirmed with a practical application of this change under normal operations.

 

5. Premium player forum section

 

it's an idea that sounds good on paper, but as IOC_000 noted, the forum is pretty good as it is. and isn't this what the WTPC was supposed to represent? a bridge between the community and gaijin itself?

 

6. Map rotation

 

for tier 2 and up. few tier 1s have the speed and/or range to make maps like Fulda or Maginot line NOT painful. everywhere else is good enough in at least one regard for huge maps. oh and bring back the old Kuban to get the nostalgia going if possible. i liked that old hilly hell. 

 

7. New game modes

 

YES. for the longest time the only really consistent modes have been conquest and domination. both are good but both are highly offensive in nature and thus punish defensive-minded tanks/TDs.

 

8. Map design

 

yes i think there can be some work done, but it's much less of a glaring issue as other on the list.

 

9. Economy and rewards

 

in short, yes. SL gain should be a little less of an imperative issue for ground forces and to a lesser extent, SPAAGs if you don't have a roster of premium tanks or don't have a hangar filled with B-17s.

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(Again) thread should be pinned so the max amount of people see it and cast their votes.

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34 minutes ago, MrChesse said:

(Again) thread should be pinned so the max amount of people see it and cast their votes.

 

A link has been sent to Stona, if Stona decides it is worth being pinned then it will be pinned hopefully :DD

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8 hours ago, Where_Is_Zedong said:

1. Major update focusing on game mechanics and game play improvements

 

The First change that seems to be widely supported is a major update away form new content to adress issues that have slowly built up in game over the years, while we understand Gaijin works through bugs and issues as frequently as possible, it is only possible to fix so much. Some issues are too large to run as a hot patch, or would take too much time to feasibly do. These issues encompass much of what will be discussed in the following points. This is at number one as completion of this would allow for many other issues to be fixed.

Definitely needs to happen. Most of the major holes in tech trees are plugged at this point. Only a scant handful remain:

- British fast scout vehicles from Tier II-VI in main tree

- German fast scout vehicles from Tier II-V in main tree

- Japanese heavy tank line

- more Japanese TDs between Na-To and Ho-Ri

 

Other than those specific examples there really isn’t anything absolutely necessary to be added. 

 

Then of course the giant pile of bugs needs to start getting chipped away at.

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9 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Definitely needs to happen. Most of the major holes in tech trees are plugged at this point. Only a scant handful remain:

- British fast scout vehicles from Tier II-VI in main tree

- German fast scout vehicles from Tier II-V in main tree

- Japanese heavy tank line

- more Japanese TDs between Na-To and Ho-Ri

 

Other than those specific examples there really isn’t anything absolutely necessary to be added. 

 

Then of course the giant pile of bugs needs to start getting chipped away at.

Well this is where Gaijin has its defining moment. Every company has to, at some point, sit down and evaluate where they are, and where they are going. In the video gaming world, this moment usually happens sooner than later. 

Do you want to continue to drop shiny new ‘toys’ and attract players that might stick around for a while, and maybe....just maybe, drop a few dollars on the game. Or do you want to step back and address some issues/bugs/vehicle performance/etc, that are currently going on.....and appeal to your loyal player base that will probably spend more money on average, AND stick around.

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8 hours ago, Where_Is_Zedong said:

2. Consistency and improvements with damage models

 

This covers issues players are finding with hit boxes, and issues with the consistency of damage mechanics, as an example damaging the barrel of a tank seems random at best, sometimes a couple of SPAAG rounds will render the barrel unuseable, while sometimes a 120mm APHE round will simply do nothing to the barrel at all. This also includes 'blackhole' on tanks that for some reason eat rounds with no explanation, APDS rounds and tracks/suspenion arms are one of the most common issue with this.

Gun barrels should all be very, very tough, only huge-caliber rounds striking gun barrels should be guaranteed to disable them. SPAAG should not be able to KO barrels easily at all.

 

Hull Break needs to be not just limited to critical components, nor even round energy. Make it simple and instantaneous if the round’s diameter is more than 2x the thickness of the armor plate, the vehicle gets destroyed in one hit. So yes, an Ostwind should damn well hull break an M18 on the first AP hit. 

 

Tracks should just not apply when a tank is shot in the side, they should have an “armorThrough” value of zero. Tracks don’t stop shells coming at them side on, they bend out of the way or break. Added track armor ontop of the normal tank armor should act differently in terms of damage model. Even World of Tanks fixed this eventually.

 

Internal armor plates should be visible on the armor viewer to take away mysteries regarding tanks with notable internal plates (T-34/85, T29/T34, IS-6, to name a few infamous examples).

 

Regarding gun breeches, the “armorThrough” value should be displayed when we select the breech in the X-ray view. Make them consistent - if a round completely punches through the “armorThrough” value, the breech is disabled. If the round does not punch through, the breech is not disabled. Plain and simple.

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Should gun barrels be unable to traverse through solid objects and morph into other tanks?Should buildings be more destructible  with cannon fire?Should falling of a cliff etc cause more damage to the tank?

Be careful what you wish for,more realism does not always make for better gameplay.The performance  of a tank without parts is realistic but no one likes it,maginot map creates quite realistic scenarios but not many players  appreciate it.

Edited by *thedeputy99

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Just now, *thedeputy99 said:

Should gun barrels be able to traverse through solid objects and morph into other tanks?Should buildings be more destructible  with canon fire?Should falling of a cliff etc cause more damage to the tank?

 

No....yes....yes

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As for damage models,uncertainty whether intended of not adds realism,frustration is realism,it's the fog of war, yes RNG creates this, uneven match making creates this effect as well(yes the n**b ,me ,who sits behind a rock waiting for you to celebrate victory before giving you a repair bill ,is realism).A battle should never be predictable and in this Gaijin has succeeded, give them credit for it.They have created an unpredictable game,your challenge is to be less predictable in your play,how many times do you see players follow the same pattern of play on maps and fail,they fail to change tactics for the situation,must cap C first,must follow all the other players,Gaijin can't help your tactics,all they do is provide a challenging environment where you have to think, regardless of  your ability.

Edited by *thedeputy99

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9 hours ago, Where_Is_Zedong said:

3. Reworking of rounds and penetration mechanics for certain rounds

 

As im sure many are aware of one of the biggest gripes that players who play the allies have had for a long time is issues with the performance of APDS rounds. This has been brought up in multiple threads covering issues from penetration figures, to post pen effect, and strange slopping mechanics against APDS. This particular point will be update with reasoning behind the issue as the thread develops please feel free to leave information or resources that demonstrate this issue.

APHE should have more complex damage modelling with filler sizes below 200g of TNT equivalent. Perpendicular band of spall from sides of round, spall from behind round, hardened nose of round should act like a solid shot. Not a complete sphere of death. Cupola shots should not be a thing, period.

 

On the tanks equipped with it, spaced armor needs a fix so it actually works. The Super Pershing is perhaps the most well-known example of stuff not working - the spaced armor on it should prematurely detonate every APHE round in existence and stop all HEAT/HESH from penetrating it. Meanwhile spaced armor should NOT stop solid shots from punching clean through unless the combined thickness is great enough. Plenty of times a Panzer III M or L will stop a US/UK 75mm M72 round or a UK 57mm Shot Mk.9 because the shell acts like it fragmented already from impacting a ~20mm spaced plate.

 

HVAP and APDS need serious pen fixes and postpen buffs. Their underperformance in higher tiers is part of the reason why tanks such as the Maus, IS-4M, and to a lesser degree IS-6/IS-3 are as high in BR as they are.

 

HESH needs a complete rework. Before 1.6X it penned historical levels but did not reliably cause postpen damage. During 1.65-1.69 it had nuclear HE-levels of postpen and below-historical levels of pen. In 1.71 and beyond it has actually correct postpen but even lower pen for no necessary reason.

 

What HESH should be doing is the following:

- penetration against flat armor at the early levels (152mm for L7 HESH)

- a very slow reduction in pen up to what 1.69 had til 80 degrees of sloping (127mm at 80 degrees), not a sudden spike at the magic number of 60 degrees.

- a postpen change from a straight line perpendicular to the plate hit to a cone from the normal of the plate hit. Basically halfway between 1.69’s overkill HESH and 1.71’s laughably underpowered HESH.

- a postpen spall cone increase with increasing sloping, as the explosive charge splatters more before detonating. 

- and finally, really large-caliber HESH should get the 1.69 levels of nuclear spalling, minus the ammo rack ability, to make things like the FV4005 (and maybe eventually T30) actually useful.

 

I get this is complex to model, but given how amazing all the planes, tanks, and ships are, I know the devs can get it right if they aren’t being pressured to constantly make new stuff 24/7.

 

Non-fin-stabilized HEAT rounds should splatter in a really wide cone once penning the armor, as the metal jet gets thrown outward by the centrifugal force.

 

Fin-stabilized HEAT should meanwhile spall in a modest cone but not nearly as wide as a spinning round would due to lack of centrifual force.

 

All kinds of HEAT, AP, APDS, APCR, and APHE should be 100% guaranteed to detonate ammo in tanks lacking wet stowage.

 

Fuel Tanks should at most eat one round per fuel tank. After that a good amount of fuel has leaked out and there’s now a highly explosive fuel-air mixture inside the hit tank that even a HESH round would ignite.

 

Then there are countless tank-specific bugs needing serious addressing.

 

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10 hours ago, Where_Is_Zedong said:

4. Match making overhall

 

Seemingly something that has become more and more apparent recently, is issues with matchmaking for different nations. Now i want to prefice this by saying i understand that there will obviously be issues with fixing this as reguardless of what happens there will always be holes and issues, its just how player density works. This issue is furthered by the current mechanics in place that dont balance BRs present in game at all, in the current set up there is no system that actually makes sure the number of top BR tanks is balanced or that there isnt 1 top BR and the rest are bottom BR vs a team with a full allocation of top BR and very few bottom BR tanks, leading to exptremely unbalanced game play. A perfect example of broken BRs is in the 8.0-9.0 range where 8.0 tanks are essentially unplayable in 9.0 match making, unless of course you are playing USSR. However ill add this as i know alot of players have great input on this, and have fantastic suggestions. Something needs to be done to fix player weight sitting at certain BRs making some tnaks near unplayable, whilst still being able to balance wait times, again this will be updated as opinions and ideas are added.

This is highly up for debate. Some say a 0.7 spread would be enough to fix things, others say something more complex is needed.

 

The best solution working for everyone would be each player choosing their own BR spread, complete with a warning popup saying “Lowering your BR spread will increase your expected queue times. Proceed anyway? (yes/no)”

 

Then equally important is removing matchmaker restrictions by allowing any one nation to match with any other nation, while not having tanks of the same tree fight each other. America, France, Germany, and Britain should be able to squad up together, a true NATO matchup couldn’t possibly be more broken than GER-RU-FR is now.

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11 hours ago, Where_Is_Zedong said:

5. Premium player forum section

 

This is the idea of having a section of the forum which i locked out much like the beta sections, that is dedicated to areas of the game no longer in beta, it would be focused on allowing players to convey ideas more directly to devs. How this would work in a fair and just way would need some work. Obviously a lot of rubbish is posted in the forums, and alot of hate is directed towards gaijin. So it would be a zero tolerance forum area if you break strict rules you would be removed. It would be avaliable to the most senior players ie those who have played a large number of games, and to players whom have spent a large amount of money whiislt still playing x amount of games. Posts would have to be approved before being allowed in. The idea of this type of forum area would be to let Gaijin access the valuable resource that is player opinion, in a far more direct and streamlined fashion. Other ideas would be only content that has gathered high enough support from the community in different forums would be able to be moved to this forum section. This isnt an idea trying to create an elitist culture in war thunder, rather a more direct way to discuss issues that dont fit into the suggestions or bug reporting mold.

Yes, yes, and yes. Not to be elitist or anything, but a player who is willing to spend money on a F2P game and plays lots of matches is probably going to care about the game’s future.

 

Such a forum section would need very strict and heavy moderation to keep salty posts out. 

 

Also, to avoid becoming another Suggestions Forum, this special subforum needs to be split into sections for appropriate game modes, and then split those sections into nation-specific sections.

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11 hours ago, Where_Is_Zedong said:

6. Map rotation

 

One of the biggest issues currently for a lot of players is map rotation, this issue has lead to alot of players leaving their vehicle at the start of battles simply because they dont want to play said map which then puts their team at a disadvantage. A simply solution would be to reintroduce as many maps into rotation as possible maybe some maps arent going to work but having 15 maps in rotation at each br group would lead to less repeatitive gameplay, and would make the less enjoyable maps more tollerable as they would only show up once ever 15 or so.

Perhaps experimenting with something like what Air Sim has would be worth trying. Long story short, let players choose the maps they play on and you’ll see which ones players generally like and don’t.

 

Even as someone who half-mains Germany, I hate Kursk, for example. Too bland with not enough terrain variation.

 

Meanwhile a small map like Ardennes is bad because there are way too many ULQ-susceptible bushes that disappear in the distance and suddenly pop up when you enter sniper/binocular view. Either render those bushes everywhere at all ranges or don’t have them at all.

 

Then many maps are unbalanced, such as Poland.

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12 hours ago, Where_Is_Zedong said:

7. New game modes

 

One big thing that players are starting to get bored by is the lack of varity of game modes, essentially 65% of games are domination, and the 35% split between conquest and battle, and its been that way for a long time now. Break wasnt with out its issues but had a slightly different gameplay dynamic but has now seemingly completely disappeared. New game modes would quickly change the tatics of battle, and intoduce the player to different ways of playing. This will be updated as players suggest different gamemodes theyd like to see.

Game modes should definitely be expanded. Specifically, I’m all for a Tank-only game mode if only to make the CAS haters stop calling for CAS nerfs, so that CAS can get buffed to a happy medium

between 1.69’s overkill and 1.71’s laughably bad levels. This is all about CAS I will say in this topic.

 

For new game mode types, I propose modification of existing ones before adding new ones entirely.

 

Conquest: One side controls a zone and spawns inside the relatively large zone, the other side spawns outside and must assault that zone and try to capture it. Defenders, if killed, have to wait 60 seconds to respawn, and can respawn so long as even a sliver of blue remains. Basically one large cap with PS2 Star Wars Battlefront 2 cap mechanics. The cap would be fortified with AI defenses and feature many areas for player SPGs to set up camp on. Finally a mode where things like the Sturer Emil are useful.

 

Battle: Each side features a large belt of AI defenses, a “front line” so to speak. Spawn points are behind this belt of defenses. The tanks from each side push into the contested area and wrestle for control of it. Killing players helps the goal along, but the actual goal is destruction of the enemy front line and your forces flooding through holes in said line. The “cap zone” is the set of spawn points, in other words the spawns are the caps. Map geography would be such so that spawn killing would be largely impossible as you’d start capping the spawn as you get in direct view of it.

 

Domination: make the capture zones larger and make said locations make logical sense. Supply drops, strategic vantage points, entire towns, etc. 

 

I don’t know what to do about Break as it varies immensely from map to map that has the mode.

Edited by MH4UAstragon
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12 hours ago, Where_Is_Zedong said:

8. Map design

 

A simple one that has been an issue for players for awhile now, random terrain, definite benefits to spawning on one side or the other, unequal terrain, Lack of cover on certain maps, cities being to small and forcing players to fight in the same straight lines are always, unkillable sniper nests.

This kinda would go hand-in-hand with new mode design. 

 

I’d say let’s have the new modes remodel the existing maps. All of them have potential to be great (while currently not all of them are), provided the correct objectives. Some may need to be expanded heavily in size to accomodate new modes.

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Why not get rid of caps, increase the rewards for kills and have it as a fight to the death with a time limit,so which  ever team has the most players spawned when the time runs out wins,this would force players to re spawn and to lessen spawn camping which this type of game would encourage have player chosen spawn points in a red zone on the edge of the map, so you can click anywhere in that zone to spawn in.This is a simple solution .

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Regarding the reputation part I think more that SPAAs earning more it should be planes that receive less on par with other vehicles and increase their SP requirements which would essentially fix two problems in one. I understand that SPAAs should mainly focus on planes but in order for that to happen you need to start changing the SPAAs first, for example giving them adequate reticles made for AA purposes and simplify their use and make them capable of efficiently hunt down planes even at further ranges, to counter the TD use we could start removing/reducing their AP belts, giving them stealth rounds etc. The way they work now they are extremely situational and cannot reliably engage planes easily unless they are right above you, otherwise hitting them at longer ranges is just a matter of RNG. For the rest I would agree on most things, especially the rework of some shells even though its not only APDS that is currently having troubles working properly but HEAT-FS and HESH too as their mechanics are petty unclear and are for sure underperforming (at least compared to some time ago). Then as MH4UAstragon APHE could use a rework too and make it behave more realistically. 

Other vital points are the map design and MM ones which should be treated with great importance as they are essentially at the base of the real purpose of this game which is having fun. Playing bad maps with fixed and balanced MM or the other way around still limits the amount of fun someone can have. MM should be balanced with fixed and equal number of top BR vehicles, even if I'm convinced that the entire BR system and MM should be reworked as it is quite a mess ( I wouldn't even know where to begin, maybe a +-0.7 reduction as others have said might work for a while).

Maps on the other hand need to be better balanced as you say without giving advantages to any team like we currently have on some maps and they need to offer different features to please every kind of playstyle so that everyone can enjoy them and not force people into a close and frontal engagements greatly reducing the efficiency of some vehicles.

 

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17 hours ago, Where_Is_Zedong said:

9. Economy and rewards

 

This is more so targeted at non premium player rewards, where 4 kills and no deaths using stock rounds will often only net you 9000SL, to be fair to Gaijin buffs to rewards for caping points is a nice thing to have done. However reducing rewards for sniper kills seems odd to say the least, in fairness to all players rewards for kills should stay the same reguardless if they are from 10m or 2000m. Buffs to SPAAG rewards is a must to encourage SPAAG to look to the skies and forget about their dreams of killing an IS-6. Simply having SPAAG kills on planes being eqial to that of plane vs plane kills makes alot of sense, and would encourage more players to use SPAAG for its reall purpose, which in turn would also decrease the effectiveness of planes, and would lead to less players complaining about planes in RB. Non premium rewards are 20% too low, forcing players toward premium vehicles and premium accounts, i understand why it is like this, as it is an economy designed to gently encourage players to become premium users.

The economy gently encouraging people to go premium is one thing. Making some things outright unbearable without it is another. And having said conditions vary immensely between nations is also a great issue of contention these days.

 

I think that CAS plane spawn costs need to seriously go up, then meanwhile buff all tank-on-tank rewards where one kill with a tank earns the same amount of RP, SL, scoreboard points, and spawn points as doing that stuff with a plane would. If the game is designed to be combined arms, then equalize reward payout for both modes. 

 

Then regarding ammunition (since this frequently makes or breaks a given tank), go with what TheEuropeanCanadian said in a recent video:

 

“For a stock tank, restrict available ammuntion amounts to the limits the real vehicle carried. If, for example, a tank only carried five APDS rounds as “normal”, then that is all you get of that shell until you unlock the modification for it. With the mod unlocked, you can take as many APDS as you want.”

 

Another thing he proposed regarding Parts and FPE:

“A stock tank should be able to repair, albeit slowly. The parts module would double repair speed. All tanks would have one fire extinguisher stock, tanks with the module would have two. All tanks would be able to restock fire extinguishers at capture zones or supply points near spawns.”

 

Basically, instead of forcing players to buy premium and generally creating a negative mood overall, instead make it attractive through other means. Maybe add more perks to premium account that are too good to pass up?

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On 1/31/2018 at 6:46 PM, Where_Is_Zedong said:

2. Consistency and improvements with damage models

 

This covers issues players are finding with hit boxes, and issues with the consistency of damage mechanics, as an example damaging the barrel of a tank seems random at best, sometimes a couple of SPAAG rounds will render the barrel unuseable, while sometimes a 120mm APHE round will simply do nothing to the barrel at all. This also includes 'blackhole' on tanks that for some reason eat rounds with no explanation, APDS rounds and tracks/suspenion arms are one of the most common issue with this.

This is an issue that slowly becomes more and more pressing. Every other patch seems to make this games penetration mechanics more and more unreliable - at this point, I'm not even surprised when something just decides not to make sense with penetration (e.g, bouncing off flat plates you should have more than enough pen for, or having shells penetrate armour plates so angled that they should be colliding with the side of the shell and scraping off, not the point).

 

On 1/31/2018 at 6:46 PM, Where_Is_Zedong said:

7. New game modes

 

One big thing that players are starting to get bored by is the lack of varity of game modes, essentially 65% of games are domination, and the 35% split between conquest and battle, and its been that way for a long time now. Break wasnt with out its issues but had a slightly different gameplay dynamic but has now seemingly completely disappeared. New game modes would quickly change the tatics of battle, and intoduce the player to different ways of playing. This will be updated as players suggest different gamemodes theyd like to see.

Personally, I'm less interested in new game modes and more so in additional objectives for existing game modes. Back in the day, there were additional objectives for some versions of Carpathians. One was the spawning of a large number of A.I tanks, which would bring down tickets when killed. The other was a somewhat randomly spawning mini cap that pulled a chunk out of the enemy tickets. I'd be interested in seeing more things like this, as they keep the battlefield as a much more dynamic conflict.

 

I would, however, very much like to see specific attack/defense modes, where one team is already in possession of a point and has to defend it from the enemy - losing very quickly if it;s captured, and having to essentially clear out all the enemies/last long enough to win. This would probably work better as a sort of perma event like SB tanks, though, as opposed to a new game mode for random battles, as you'd probably have to play with team numbers to make it balanced.

 

On 1/31/2018 at 6:46 PM, Where_Is_Zedong said:

9. Economy and rewards

 

This is more so targeted at non premium player rewards, where 4 kills and no deaths using stock rounds will often only net you 9000SL, to be fair to Gaijin buffs to rewards for caping points is a nice thing to have done. However reducing rewards for sniper kills seems odd to say the least, in fairness to all players rewards for kills should stay the same reguardless if they are from 10m or 2000m. Buffs to SPAAG rewards is a must to encourage SPAAG to look to the skies and forget about their dreams of killing an IS-6. Simply having SPAAG kills on planes being eqial to that of plane vs plane kills makes alot of sense, and would encourage more players to use SPAAG for its reall purpose, which in turn would also decrease the effectiveness of planes, and would lead to less players complaining about planes in RB. Non premium rewards are 20% too low, forcing players toward premium vehicles and premium accounts, i understand why it is like this, as it is an economy designed to gently encourage players to become premium users.

I vote yes to an increase in rewards, but make it in general, not just non premium. If non premium rewards increase 20%, so do premium rewards, just to keep everything in line.

 

On 2/1/2018 at 3:54 AM, *thedeputy99 said:

Should falling of a cliff etc cause more damage to the tank?

I'm just gonna put it out there that yes, yes I really think it should. Damage to tank crew/tracks via movement is something else that I think needs to be brought up, as it currently hampers the effectiveness of bombs a fair amount of the time, and allows tanks to do things that they really shouldn't (e.g, colliding with each other at high speed and shoving each other around, jumping off cliffs, etc).

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19 minutes ago, Xogo said:

I would, however, very much like to see specific attack/defense modes, where one team is already in possession of a point and has to defend it from the enemy - losing very quickly if it;s captured, and having to essentially clear out all the enemies/last long enough to win. This would probably work better as a sort of perma event like SB tanks, though, as opposed to a new game mode for random battles, as you'd probably have to play with team numbers to make it balanced.

Which already have in the form of Assault arcade. Would be very easy to convert to what you mentioned. 

I’m in agreement with Xogo. Adding some modes would go along way in this game. And it would address some concerns that the historical guys are talking about. Having a map where one side already holds an area/base, and the other needs to acquire it as the objective. It could be a railway terminal, or an airfield. There are many possibilities. 

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On 31/1/2018 at 6:46 AM, Where_Is_Zedong said:

3. Reworking of rounds and penetration mechanics for certain rounds

 

As im sure many are aware of one of the biggest gripes that players who play the allies have had for a long time is issues with the performance of APDS rounds. This has been brought up in multiple threads covering issues from penetration figures, to post pen effect, and strange slopping mechanics against APDS. This particular point will be update with reasoning behind the issue as the thread develops please feel free to leave information or resources that demonstrate this issue.

 

Hullbreak please!!!

Is ridiculous see a direct impact of 152 or 128mm against vehicles like Hellcat or asu-57, and see how the projectile penetrates the vehicle causing minimal damage or even without damage :facepalm:

And of course rework the broken MM and the totally failed Battle rating system.

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