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2 hours ago, LtChambers said:

I didn't mean to imply that I think there is evidence one way or the other of the majority's slight preferences. I'm just saying that people with slight preferences don't bother to come to the forum to voice them. So it could go either way.


I would agree with that generally.

 

I suspect there are probably a fair number of people with a mild interest in TO and a lot of people with a mild disinterest in TO, each group being little heard from in favor of people who are more interested and/or willing to speak. The poll results’ indecisive breakdown indicated as much could be expected.

Edited by warrior412
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Yes, that's why I want them to put occasional surveys IN THE GAME (actually they don't even need to survey everyone, a random sample of 10% of the unique players over a week or so would be fine). A forum or website survey is terribly non-representative of the playerbase.

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On 23/02/2021 at 00:45, warrior412 said:

In the forum poll that was held, the split was highly indecisive (confirming the problematic matter of playerbase splitting).

 

Player splitting has very little to do with the poll results. While time spent playing either mode is mutually exlusive, TO isn't mutually exclusive with RBGF by necessity. If anything if the playerbase is big enough to support both you'd want a roughly even distribution of players. So if a larger more representative poll has similar results you would, in confirming the obvious potential problem of player splitting, possibly confirm it is not a major problem.

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Seeing how few people of the playerbase looks at forums ,  the polls are kind of a joke.        Make 1 when you login and enter the hangar and you get the questions there.   so you reach all the players.

 

But you will never get a straight answer here on forum from a mod who can pass on a msg from a dev or someone from Gaijin  saying this discussion is closed.   there will be never a TO mode.

 

But i don't blame them for not wanting a TO mode purely from a $$ standpoint.     Maybe to scared to loose players or manny people will leave the normal groundforces.    The reasoning behind the stance of no TO will be always a secret.

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A few new inputs on this

1. Playing as an SPAA during rainy weather is frigging stupid. IDK if it was just a visual bug on my part, but planes would just fade away and vanish after flying away from you, even if they weren't that far away. Also, scanning the sky for distant aircraft is a horrible pain in the @$$ when stupid raindrops keep hitting your screen, basically producing a ton of visual chaffe.

2. I've been getting better at shooting down planes with crap like the Phong Kong T-34, but skilled air pilots are absolutely untouchable no matter how good the SPAA user is. If they dive bomb from far up above, quickly spray bullets to disable the gunner or loader and then peel off before your return fire can even reach them, there's absolutely no counter play for that. This is a problem because it defeats the entire purpose for SPAA's being in this game mode. SPAA's are too vulnerable to the aircraft they're trying to shoot down. In this sense CAS basically becomes like arty in World of Tanks, where the players are equally helpless to do anything about it, only the CAS kills you faster and can spawn kill you.

I get that a skilled pilot should be hard to kill, thats kinda the point of being skilled, but not to the point that a skilled SPAA driver is completely unable to do anything about it, even if the SPAA player were theoretically even more skilled. I'm not sure what to do about it though. Arbitrarily increase the vitality of the SPAA crew? Arbitrarily increase the velocity of HE shells from SPAA guns? Make proximity fuses available at lower tiers or make self-detonating shells actually usable?

Edited by [email protected]
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Or use a plane rather than SPAA. Only a few nations get a robust lineup throughout lower and mid tiers, so aerial options to counter air are always viable. Then you just land again and pop back in s ground vehicle, depending on the situation.

 

Lack of viable options to add new AA to the game for those tiers is definitely an issue though.

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9 hours ago, [email protected] said:

Playing as an SPAA during rainy weather is frigging stupid. IDK if it was just a visual bug on my part, but planes would just fade away and vanish after flying away from you, even if they weren't that far away. Also, scanning the sky for distant aircraft is a horrible pain in the @$$ when stupid raindrops keep hitting your screen, basically producing a ton of visual chaffe.

 

It funny because planes don't see snow flakes either. Which is why maps like VOLO were unplayable for ground.

 

SPAA had snow flakes or rain dropping 24/7 while enemy in a plane had nothing and could see low poly black tank models on White snow... the ultimate joke.

 

 

9 hours ago, Deranger79 said:

Or use a plane rather than SPAA. Only a few nations get a robust lineup throughout lower and mid tiers, so aerial options to counter air are always viable. Then you just land again and pop back in s ground vehicle, depending on the situation.

 

Lack of viable options to add new AA to the game for those tiers is definitely an issue though.

 

Yeah this solution sucks bad.

 

When I played my  8.7 RU lineup it literally felt like every single game, my 2nd spawn was a Mig-15 BiS just to try and shoot down the 30 g.91's (who can still compete at low alt and bait you over spaa)

 

That is real fun... playing air in ground rb 24/7. 

 

Edited by Daffan
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I just got spawn killed by cas 5 times in like 20-30 minutes. 
 

no, this is just dumb. Idk if it was bad luck but also the SPAA’s I normally use to actually do well like the ZSD or whatever it’s called was constantly getting butchered by the aircraft it was trying to shoot down. The bullets either instantly kill the gunner before I get like 5 rounds off, or they survive several direct hits for 37mm HE shells from the Phong Kong and then kill the crew anyway, or I shoot them down but they still drop a bomb and kill me anyway.

 

this is idiotic. Either SPAA’s need to be better or CAS needs to be worse.

 

and “just spawn in your own plane!” Is a completely useless and unhelpful suggestion. Consider some of the people playing ground battles are playing ground battles specifically because they decided not to play air battles.

EDIt: upon further reflection, part of the problem of the SPAAs getting slaughtered by the aircraft they’re supposed to counter probably had something to do with the uptiers I was being thrown in, which begs the question.

Are 6.3+ aircraft supposed to be able to just eat several 37mm shells and take almost no damage? If so then either SPAAs need arbitrary usability buffs or aircraft need an entirely separate BR system for this game mode. The idea that slow-firing SPAAs, which already have trouble landing a single shot on aircraft, need multiple shots to take down aircraft in its own BR range, is just idiotic, especially given how much easily said aircraft can disable and kill the SPAA in turn.

Edited by [email protected]
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Different BRs for aircraft for different modes would make sense in my opinion. 

 

Since it is a much discussed aircraft, I'll just use the G.91 R/3 as example:

 

In Air RB it can't move much higher due to the shifting meta at its BR range. 

 

In Ground RB it is effective at any BR with long range SAMs being the most reliable counter. 

 

So while 8.7 is perfectly fine for the aircraft in Air RB, a BR of 9.7+ in Ground RB would fit pretty well. 

The same applies for many AGM equipped aircraft, which are not competitive in Air RB either due to bad/mediocre flight performance or underwhelming air-to-air capabilities, but are excellent ground pounders.

 

 

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5 hours ago, [email protected] said:

Are 6.3+ aircraft supposed to be able to just eat several 37mm shells and take almost no damage?

If you shoot them with AP shells or you have a mix combo and you fired an AP shell yes it is possible.

 

5 hours ago, [email protected] said:

If so then either SPAAs need arbitrary usability buffs or aircraft need an entirely separate BR system for this game mode.

No need for buff.You need to reach the top of the learning curve and you won't have any problems with that.It will take some time foy you to master it.

 

5 hours ago, [email protected] said:

The idea that slow-firing SPAAs, which already have trouble landing a single shot on aircraft, need multiple shots to take down aircraft in its own BR range, is just idiotic, especially given how much easily said aircraft can disable and kill the SPAA in turn.

If you hit him with HE shell you can easily kill him.You need to directly hit him because there are no proxy shells until 8.0-8.3.Both SPAA and plane can easily kill each other it mainly depends of player skill.

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5 hours ago, croatiankiller said:

If you shoot them with AP shells or you have a mix combo and you fired an AP shell yes it is possible.

 

No need for buff.You need to reach the top of the learning curve and you won't have any problems with that.It will take some time foy you to master it.

 

If you hit him with HE shell you can easily kill him.You need to directly hit him because there are no proxy shells until 8.0-8.3.Both SPAA and plane can easily kill each other it mainly depends of player skill.


I'm firing full HE belts with every SPAA I pull out for AA duties, only exception is the ZSD which has to use mixed belts because its insane reload time makes switching belts completely impractical. Ironically that's the one I've been having the least problems with actually damaging aircraft.

Anyway, I was using pure 37mm HE belts on the Phong Kong and scoring 2-3 direct hits on enemy aircraft [or more, the gun sometimes fires two shells simultaneously and maybe they both hit]. Even head on they would just start smoking a little bit but nothing else would happen. Real 1-hit KO's would only happen if they were flying past and turning, and I was able to get a shot off on the plane's dorsal surface, or if I got lucky and the plane was flying straight at me and I presumably landed an HE shell right in the cockpit. That still sucks though, because in many cases where this happens the plane still drops a bomb and kills me anyway after I destroyed them, or their MG fire spray already killed my gunner and/or loader. Yeah they can both kill each other it that assessment kind of ignores how much easier it is for CAS to kill SPAA's than it is for SPAA's to kill CAS. Its like throwing the Ro-Go and T55E1 in the same BR because "they can both kill each other with one shot". I mean, yeah that's true, but it kinda looks past how much easier it is for one of those things to do it than the other.

This is stupid for reasons beyond just "Git gud". Most of the SPAA's at this BR range are straight up weaker than the CAS they're supposed to counter. It feels like trying to use a poodle to guard your lifestock from wolves. The ZSD has the best AA firepower, even better than the Italian M24 or R3 T20 [aside from the miserable reload], but its armor is so thin that planes still disable and kill it more easily than it can do the same in return. A plane with .50cals only needs like less than 2 seconds of fire to disable an open topped SPAA. Something like the Phong Kong can only get 3-4 shots off in that time before the gunner kicks the bucket.

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1 hour ago, [email protected] said:

Anyway, I was using pure 37mm HE belts on the Phong Kong and scoring 2-3 direct hits on enemy aircraft [or more, the gun sometimes fires two shells simultaneously and maybe they both hit]. Even head on they would just start smoking a little bit but nothing else would happen. Real 1-hit KO's would only happen if they were flying past and turning, and I was able to get a shot off on the plane's dorsal surface, or if I got lucky and the plane was flying straight at me and I presumably landed an HE shell right in the cockpit.

I don't know the issue Ostwind 2 who has a same caliber shells have no issue with that.It could be to ammo or something with gaijin.

 

1 hour ago, [email protected] said:

That still sucks though, because in many cases where this happens the plane still drops a bomb and kills me anyway after I destroyed them, or their MG fire spray already killed my gunner and/or loader.

Unless plane has his tail or wing surfaces destroyed he can still fly so It's not destroyed.Why gaijin makes it like this is unknown to me.

 

1 hour ago, [email protected] said:

This is stupid for reasons beyond just "Git gud". Most of the SPAA's at this BR range are straight up weaker than the CAS they're supposed to counter. It feels like trying to use a poodle to guard your lifestock from wolves. The ZSD has the best AA firepower, even better than the Italian M24 or R3 T20 [aside from the miserable reload], but its armor is so thin that planes still disable and kill it more easily than it can do the same in return. A plane with .50cals only needs like less than 2 seconds of fire to disable an open topped SPAA. Something like the Phong Kong can only get 3-4 shots off in that time before the gunner kicks the bucket.

You are taking a bad example.China has no good SPAA vehicles and those they have are more suited against tanks than planes.If you take something like german SPAA line which is the best one or you can combine french and italian one you will get one of the best SPAA vehicles.In your case you should either switch nation for SPAA play or start playing planes becasue issue with china won't be fixed for some time.

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4 hours ago, croatiankiller said:

I don't know the issue Ostwind 2 who has a same caliber shells have no issue with that.It could be to ammo or something with gaijin.

 

Unless plane has his tail or wing surfaces destroyed he can still fly so It's not destroyed.Why gaijin makes it like this is unknown to me.

 

You are taking a bad example.China has no good SPAA vehicles and those they have are more suited against tanks than planes.If you take something like german SPAA line which is the best one or you can combine french and italian one you will get one of the best SPAA vehicles.In your case you should either switch nation for SPAA play or start playing planes becasue issue with china won't be fixed for some time.


My suspicion with the ostwind 2 is maybe because it always fires 2 shells at once, when it hits it reliably always hits harder than the Phong Kong firing sequentially.
Like, the Phong Kong is perfectly lethal against 5.7 or 6.0.

The thing about China though... is that its SPAA line from 4.3-8.0 isn't even bad. IDK anything about the Finnish, but I can absolutely say that the ZSD and Phong Kong are better AA platforms than anything in the French tree until 8.0, or the British tree until the Falcon. The Ta-Se and So-Ki are okay at their BR's, but japan relies on the So-Ki as its best SPAA until like 8.0 as well. The So-Ki absolutely does not hold up in 5.7-6.7, but its still better than the M24 Duster. Id even go as far as to say that the Chinese SPAA line at these BR's is better than the American line.

Also I really just don't think that "switch to planes" is a helpful suggestion. It essentially amounts to "the best way to deal with CAS in your ground forces game is to not play as ground forces", or "don't play tanks in the tank mode", which is like only a step and a half away from "stop playing" or "maybe arty and gold spam in WOT isn't that bad after all". Maybe I was just being emotional at the time, but god damn, getting repeatedly spawn killed by aircraft bombs made me miss arties in WOT.

Edited by [email protected]
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10 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

Also I really just don't think that "switch to planes" is a helpful suggestion. It essentially amounts to "the best way to deal with CAS in your ground forces game is to not play as ground forces", or "don't play tanks in the tank mode"

Well the best way to deal with plane is another plane.It sounds simple but flying is much more than being simple.You have 2 options and one is a plane and other is an SPAA.I always preferred plane.Ground battles are not tank battles only but combined and if you limit your view about it then you won't understand the concept and you will suffer playing it.It takes a lot of SP to enter the plane and the person who got it deserved to fly it.It can be a huge advantage or a huge mistake depending on a player and that's what no one can know for sure.When you go against a plane in your plane he won't be effective and if you didn't spawn at the same time you will be able to intercept while he goes on ground targets and and no SPAA except top tier one can make up with that difference.That is your chance to deal with planes if they are nuisance but SPAA is not a successful detterent on it's own and currently you cannot change that as far we know.

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15 hours ago, croatiankiller said:

No need for buff.You need to reach the top of the learning curve and you won't have any problems with that.It will take some time foy you to master it.

Still dodging people's challenges for spaa vs jet?

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, croatiankiller said:

Well the best way to deal with plane is another plane.It sounds simple but flying is much more than being simple.You have 2 options and one is a plane and other is an SPAA.I always preferred plane.Ground battles are not tank battles only but combined and if you limit your view about it then you won't understand the concept and you will suffer playing it.It takes a lot of SP to enter the plane and the person who got it deserved to fly it.It can be a huge advantage or a huge mistake depending on a player and that's what no one can know for sure.When you go against a plane in your plane he won't be effective and if you didn't spawn at the same time you will be able to intercept while he goes on ground targets and and no SPAA except top tier one can make up with that difference.That is your chance to deal with planes if they are nuisance but SPAA is not a successful detterent on it's own and currently you cannot change that as far we know.

So basically, yeah, the best way to deal with CAS in ground forces is to not actually play ground forces.

 

cool, what great game design. 

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On 27/02/2021 at 03:09, [email protected] said:

So basically, yeah, the best way to deal with CAS in ground forces is to not actually play ground forces.

 

cool, what great game design. 

The idea of Ground Forces is COMBINED ARMS...as some play tanks, other play SPAA and other play planes. The tanks will take the ground, planes and SPAAs will support. Idea is actually good and i like it. Ground Forces is ONLY THE NAME, but was COMBINED from day one.

Tanks are supposed to be UNABLE to defend from planes (or not very good at it)...thats what SPAAs and AIR COVER is there for. IF this is well BALANCED is something we can discuss (preferably on other topic), but the idea is ACTUALLY GOOD.

 

NOW...if someone DOES NOT LIKE the idea, and prefers a more realistic and tactically different environment where there is NO COMBINED ARMS but a simpler TANKS ONLY concept...it is also COMPLETELY VALID...and IMHO, it is ALSO FUN. So i ALSO LIKE IT. I would actually play BOTH MODES. Some players would probably play only one...done right all would be happy.

 

IF Gaijin want to implement COMBINED ARMS only, it is their right to do so...and eventually lose a slice of the available player market. In their view, their TARGET MARKET prefers this approach and it is how they differentiate from the competition, i guess.

 

Edited by [email protected]
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3 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

The idea of Ground Forces is COMBINED ARMS...as some play tanks, other play SPAA and other play planes.

Thats true but thats is also one of the main issues why players seek TO. WT CA is only by idea (which is good as you said) because WT implementation of it is mixed assets battle as game allows for example battle to be 16 vs 16 SPAA alone if players choose like that.

 

Proper CA game doesn't alow that. For example in Post Scriptum you cannot choose to have 3 Tigers in battle when there is only 1 Tiger and 2 PzIVs available to choose. You cannot have 3 snipers in a squad when there is only 1 sniper slot. And so on. It goes more by real army accuracy of what would army had on their side. 16 vs 16 is probably too low number to make proper assets mix so they chose to let players decide what they spawn with.

 

Ground EC (RB or SB) is probably the closest WT could get to CA. IMO that whould be the best next step where all players get what they choose. Ones which like CQB can fight for urban objectives. Ones that loves long range engagements and menouvering can choost to fight over terrain oriented objectives. Ones that love CAS can do CAS duties. And list goes on...

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On 25/02/2021 at 10:07, Deranger79 said:

Then you just land again and pop back in s ground vehicle, depending on the situation.

 

 

Can you really spawn back in a tank with no death-repair cost if you land the plane at the base?

 

If so, I was not aware of that. Would make flying more interesting to me knowing I could come back in a ground vehicle as needed without J-ing out and costing tickets, SL, etc.

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45 minutes ago, NotTheWave said:

 

Can you really spawn back in a tank with no death-repair cost if you land the plane at the base?

 

If so, I was not aware of that. Would make flying more interesting to me knowing I could come back in a ground vehicle as needed without J-ing out and costing tickets, SL, etc.


You have to reload/repair on the runway first, but yes:

-the game puts you back at the edge of the runway

-at that point (do not move at all) you may J out to the spawn selection screen with no ill effect other than needing to pay more (double) SP to return to that aircraft later if you choose

 

The last bit is what is cheesy and unfair—your paid vehicle becomes an SP rental.

 

Despawn mechanics in RB GFs need serious work.

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23 hours ago, [email protected] said:

.thats what SPAAs and AIR COVER is there for. IF this is well BALANCED is something we can discuss (preferably on other topic), but the idea is ACTUALLY GOOD.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is mostly what I was originally getting at.

The balance between aircraft and SPAA's is still terribly skewed in favor of the aircraft, at least until BR 8.0. The overwhelming majority of SPAA's below that are actually really bad at shooting down planes and/or themselves are easily killed by regular MG fire from said planes, let alone cannonfire, rockets or bombs. Even the *good* ones like the Wirblewind or Contraereo are still completely incapable of countering a skilled pilot, no matter how skilled the SPAA player is in turn. The plane flies directly above them, quickly dives down to briefly spray the machine with MG fire, then quickly peels away before the return fire can even reach them. There's no counter play for this outside of not using the ground vehicles, which really sucks for a game mode called "Ground Forces: Realistic Battles". Yes I know its a combined arms game mode, but some people should maybe understand how unsatisfying it is to be told "The best way to deal with planes in the game mode called Ground Forces is to not use the Ground Forces."

Edited by [email protected]
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I agree, they only let people You killed come back and attack You with a plane that You cannot defend against. I call them "Revenge Planes"... You see it all the time on Twitch, someone who is streaming will get killed in a ground vehicle and they come back in a plane and go right after the person who killed them. I see this a lot, and I'm talking professional players who stream on Twitch. It's pretty sad actually.

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3 minutes ago, rgtruck01 said:

I agree, they only let people You killed come back and attack You with a plane that You cannot defend against. I call them "Revenge Planes"... You see it all the time on Twitch, someone who is streaming will get killed in a ground vehicle and they come back in a plane and go right after the person who killed them. I see this a lot, and I'm talking professional players who stream on Twitch. It's pretty sad actually.

I have been on the two sides of this scenario...i dont get what the fuss is about...

 

EVERY FPS GAME that allows respawn will have players wanting to revenge their death. I personally dont do it a lot...i often prefer to do what is better for the win...but all things being equal, i will target my previous killer. If i do it on a tank, plane or SPAA should not be a huge factor. The game should keep the balance...and i dont find it easier to kill a tank with a plane...particularly if the enemy has active fighters and SPAAs.

 

Game is combined arms...TANKS ARE supposed to be covered by allies...

 

Of course...if i am killed by an open top vehicle...the "logical" thing to do often is to spawn on a plane and look it up...it is someone else's job to intercept the plane. The open top has a BR "bonus" to compensate for this extra "vulnerability"...

 

AGAIN...i think Tanks Only should be a MODE/EVENT.

BUT combined arms works...BY DEFINITION the different "arms" should combine for the common goal...

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"Wanted to make another video about how close air support, CAS, is still way too powerful in War Thunder's ground realistic mode. Instead of rambling about it though, I just gathered some gameplay and threw this together. Hope it gets the point across. It's not meant to show how easy it is to get kills with stuff like the A-4E and G.91, moreso to show how easy it is to spawn these things in the first place. Here's hoping Gaijin changes the spawn point cost system."

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The planes are strong, but the much worse in the ground RB are simply the helicopters.

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