Can we get a ground only mode?

[TheElite96 4,671]

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[ULQ_LOVER 4,610]

Just now, warrior412 said:

I understand the facts just fine--perhaps you need to review them:

 

Rockets were nerfed because they were using an old modelling from AFs--though the changes they put onto the live server were also not accurate. They now need to fixed and there is a wide call for that to happen.

No you don't. And you will never do. 

[ULQ_LOVER 4,610]

1 minute ago, warrior412 said:

 

Gaijin literally stated the reason (old modelling) in their patch notes. I only recounted those facts and they are accurate.

 

Combined arms battles are overwhelmingly popular because of aircraft, not despite them. No other game offers what War Thunder does. Thus, these complex battles attract people to the game from others that do not offer such engagements. Without aircraft and combined arms battles, this game would far, far less popular--perhaps dead. (It'd have never existed as we know it if not for planes.)

Yes, of course. You are right like always 

[SilkMonger 1,979]

Ok.  "Battle Royale" is not what I was asking for, so it's failure is off topic, rather than evidence that would counter anything to do with my suggestion.  (No squads, and I'm not even sure if there were teams, as it looked to me to be more of a "last man wins" fight, which is nothing like what I seek, even if it did not have airplanes!)

Currently, there are 4 mode of play, in the menu, for regular combat.  I am just suggesting the addition of a fifth mode named something like "Realistic Ground Battle", that did not include airplanes. 

The code is already in place for a menu. (Though a 5th mode would require a bit of re-design to make the page look right, and they really should rename the current tank battle to combined arms and have tank battle be the name for the tanks-only mode.)  The code is already in place for a realistic tank-only battle, all they would need to do to make it tanks-only is to change the spawn costs of planes for that mode to something unreachable.  (Though, maybe even here, they could leave it low enough so that, if someone were getting significant kills on the ground, they could eventually get an airplane, such that one game in 5 or 10 actually had a plane, but it would require significant tanking skills to get it!)

 

Yes, I see only 5 or 10 people here arguing over this, and many of us were arguing this before in that closed thread, but my interest in this has not waned, and I will likely be back on the forums after they close this thread, for much the same reason.

[SilkMonger 1,979]

7 minutes ago, TheAnnoyingFinn said:

So instead of trying to find a good compromise on how to make planes less available for players, you are hellbent on removing them from a game mode that makes this game unique. And thus dividing the playerbase?

Your biggest problem seems to be the revenge suicide bombing, which i already suggested some possible fixes for. Making planes take-off from the Airfield, upping the SP cost of planes with ordinance/cannons with powerful AP rounds and that with those in mind, you would have more than enough time to reposition to make yourself harder to "revenge bomb".
Personally i wouldn't mind the killcam going, where it shows the enemy tanks position, instead we could get it so that it only shows the penetration, and not the tank that killed you at all.
Another idea would be that if a plane crashes within 2 seconds of bomb drop, everything that player still has in his lineup could be doubled, or even tripled in SP cost.

Why is it so hard to try and work out some compromise with ideas like these, honing them with people to an extent where they are well balanced but still keeping this unique combined battles game mode in?

 

"dividing the player base"?  Adding 1 additional mode of combat, when everyone swears it will be a deserted ruin and nobody will go there?  Really?
 

I challenge you to quote where I type about revenge or suicide bombing.  I suspect you have mistaken who you're typing to.  I complained that it was pilot skill, rather than tanker skill, that was important in the tank battle mode, and that that was not how it should be.

I don't see it as "dividing the player base".  I see it as keeping the tankers from looking for a new game.  (allowing the player base to increase)

[TheAnnoyingFinn 856]

3 minutes ago, SilkMonger said:

I don't see it as "dividing the player base".  I see it as keeping the tankers from looking for a new game.  (allowing the player base to increase)

Man, you are just so hellbent on your views that i guess you just choose to not register any of the things i've suggested on how to keep BOTH SIDES of the argument happy.
Don't worry, i won't continue on this topic. Not with someone who doesn't see anything but his own views.

On a side note, i never did claim that the game mode would be a ruin as you suggested. But at the end of the day, i dont see a point in a completely new game mode that would increase queue times.

[SilkMonger 1,979]

There is nothing about adding a mode to the game that in any way stops the attempts to compromise and improve the current mode of play.  If anything, having somewhere else the tankers can go when the current game is broken (as the pilots currently have) would spur more development effort in improving the current "tank realistic battles".

 

And I do have two friends that both tried this game as tankers, and left. 

Edited January 20, 2018 by SilkMonger
added one bit

[TheAnnoyingFinn 856]

2 minutes ago, SilkMonger said:

There is nothing about adding a mode to the game that in any way stops the attempts to compromise and improve the current mode of play.  If anything, having somewhere else the tankers can go when the current game is broken (as the pilots currently have) would spur more development effort in improving the current "tank realistic battles".

Im just curious, do you honestly think that Gaijin isn't currently looking at, improving and putting effort to tanks?

[MH4UAstragon 8,569]

7 hours ago, *Naik_NL said:

Rockets get a re-fix, all planes get a ground spawn and will earn comparable to other vehicles in Ground Forces, everybody happy...

Or buff tank SP and scoreboard earnings to the levels planes get. Realistically, one kill in most units should net another non-SPAAG respawn. Maybe in a heavy tank close to top BR two kills would be needed. Then also have point doubling only apply for multiple vehicles of the same class (you die in a medium, only other mediums in your lineup see their costs double). We have separated point doubling for SPAA so why not also for every other vehicle class?

 

I do agree with the ground spawn for all planes, and placing AFs somewhat further away from tank maps in RB and Sim. Then maybe go a step further and have AAA only activate when someone is sitting still on the runway. Then reduce spawn costs of clean fighters. If one side wins air superiority, they should have mechanics rigged so they can keep it, if that means spawn-killing morons on the enemy AF then so be it.

[SilkMonger 1,979]

TheAnnoyingFinn typed " Im just curious, do you honestly think that Gaijin isn't currently looking at, improving and putting effort to tanks? "

 

I suspect they are.  Why are you so hellbent on keeping them from opening up an additional game mode that does not include airplanes?

 

Edited January 20, 2018 by SilkMonger
forgot the quote

[SilkMonger 1,979]

MH4UAstragon: Not to nay-say what you're typing, but that isn't really what this thread is about.

 

[[email protected] 2,084]

Bad idea. What do SPAA do? Shooting down planes is one of the most fun things to do in game. What happens to the matchmaker? Will mixed and pure tank players be split, and will this hurt the MM? Probably will. Aside from the possible issues, why should we have it in the first place? You can refrain from ever flying a plane in ground RB without any issues. Planes are not a necessity for anything, not even for fighting other planes. There's no more CAS spam and as someone whose most played vehicle of last year was the Tiger II H, I know that even the spam could be battled effectively with SPAA. Today, you only face an occasional bomb and rocket-users are rare (though they're still potent when used from above). There is no justification for splitting the player base here. It's completely and utterly unnecessary. You have no valid grievances, only a personal preference for pure tank games.

[SilkMonger 1,979]

Just now, *Q_Garbage_Q said:

Bad idea. What do SPAA do? Shooting down planes is one of the most fun things to do in game. What happens to the matchmaker? Will mixed and pure tank players be split, and will this hurt the MM? Probably will. Aside from the possible issues, why should we have it in the first place? You can refrain from ever flying a plane in ground RB without any issues. Planes are not a necessity for anything, not even for fighting other planes. There's no more CAS spam and as someone whose most played vehicle of last year was the Tiger II H, I know that even the spam could be battled effectively with SPAA. Today, you only face an occasional bomb and rocket-users are rare (though they're still potent when used from above). There is no justification for splitting the player base here. It's completely and utterly unnecessary. You have no valid grievances, only a personal preference for pure tank games.

I suspect that players who wanted to play their SPAA vehicles would do so in the same game mode that is available now, and be less inclined to play in the tank-only mode.  Pilots would also find the new mode something of a drag. 

Look, I will plan to play the current modes of the game in addition to a tank-only mode, if it were made available.  I don't see where you're making any point at all.  I haven't said anything about ending the mode of play that is currently available, SPAAs don't get to play at all in the air realistic mode, why is it any big deal that they aren't as effective in a tank-only mode?  (if added)

 

[MH4UAstragon 8,569]

Perhaps alongside buffing ordinance to proper levels they could also nerf tank magic repairs so everything takes longer. 

 

Then maybe a nonlethal hit will actually be worth something.

[[email protected] 2,084]

4 hours ago, SilkMonger said:

I suspect that players who wanted to play their SPAA vehicles would do so in the same game mode that is available now, and be less inclined to play in the tank-only mode.  Pilots would also find the new mode something of a drag. 

Look, I will plan to play the current modes of the game in addition to a tank-only mode, if it were made available.  I don't see where you're making any point at all.  I haven't said anything about ending the mode of play that is currently available, SPAAs don't get to play at all in the air realistic mode, why is it any big deal that they aren't as effective in a tank-only mode?  (if added)

 

I'm making a point because this only does one thing: create unnecessary problems with the matchmaker, among other things. There is no reason to go for a tank only mode other than mere preference. I don't think your and a few others' personal preference is worth creating issues for WT. Some BRs already have MM problems to begin with, let alone when the players are split between mixed and pure tank battles. It just makes no sense to do it, nor do I see why we'd even need it if there were zero problems that'd come with it. What's next, an air RB mode with fighters only, without bombers/attackers? There have been people asking for that in the past, too.

[StronkVodka 725]

31 minutes ago, MH4UAstragon said:

Perhaps alongside buffing ordinance to proper levels they could also nerf tank magic repairs so everything takes longer. 

 

Yeah sure, and in that case let's make planes spawn on airfields hundreds of kilometers from the battle, and make aircraft repair/rearm/refuel take longer than ~20 seconds. It's only fair.

[Xogo 990]

6 hours ago, SilkMonger said:

I suspect they are.  Why are you so hellbent on keeping them from opening up an additional game mode that does not include airplanes?

Because of Gaijin's nature. Relative to the amount of modes and people required for a match we have, War Thunder has a fairly low amount of players. If we add another mode, especially one which splits probably the game's most popular mode's community in half, queue times in both the new and old modes will skyrocket, from doubling the time to literally not having enough players to make a match (we already see that at certain tiers). 

Why is that a problem? Because Gaijin is obsessed with queue times. As far as they're concerned, battles have to come quickly, and they seem to like them to play out quickly too. Gaijin's response to low queue times is never to entice more players - they're doing their best at that already, though in a way that doesn't keep anyone. It's always instead to compress BRs. That's the problem.

 

BRs in this game are already a mess, and show massive over compression in some areas (See: The difference between 6.7 and 7.7 tanks. It's a world of difference and a fairly common match up). Adding another mode slows down queue times, which tells Gaijin to compress BRs more to compensate. We don't want to see Panzer IVs fighting alongside Panthers, do we? That just wouldn't be fair. As such, a move such as the addition of a new game mode right now is a bad idea.

 

I would very much like to see a tanks only mode in future, if only so the anti-planes crew will stop complaining about aircraft and getting them to be nerfed in all modes, but I don't think it's an option with our current player numbers and Gaijin's mentality.

[SilkMonger 1,979]

1 hour ago, *Q_Garbage_Q said:

I'm making a point because this only does one thing: create unnecessary problems with the matchmaker, among other things. There is no reason to go for a tank only mode other than mere preference. I don't think your and a few others' personal preference is worth creating issues for WT. Some BRs already have MM problems to begin with, let alone when the players are split between mixed and pure tank battles. It just makes no sense to do it, nor do I see why we'd even need it if there were zero problems that'd come with it. What's next, an air RB mode with fighters only, without bombers/attackers? There have been people asking for that in the past, too.

1) If, as you say, it is only my (and a few others) personal preference to play tank-only, then what matchmaking issues could it possibly present?
2) I will grant you it hasn't happened lately, but I seem to remember air battles occasionally having a single air capture point, with no ground targets.  Wasn't that effectively a fighters-only game?  (Sure, you could take a bomber, if you wanted to fly a target)  I honestly would not have a problem with such a mode being added.
3) That first point of yours, you talk about problems with matchmaking, "among other things": what other things are you typing about?

[Xogo 990]

Just now, SilkMonger said:

2) I will grant you it hasn't happened lately, but I seem to remember air battles occasionally having a single air capture point, with no ground targets. 

That's in AB, not RB.

[SilkMonger 1,979]

37 minutes ago, Xogo said:

Because of Gaijin's nature. Relative to the amount of modes and people required for a match we have, War Thunder has a fairly low amount of players. If we add another mode, especially one which splits probably the game's most popular mode's community in half, queue times in both the new and old modes will skyrocket, from doubling the time to literally not having enough players to make a match (we already see that at certain tiers). 

Why is that a problem? Because Gaijin is obsessed with queue times. As far as they're concerned, battles have to come quickly, and they seem to like them to play out quickly too. Gaijin's response to low queue times is never to entice more players - they're doing their best at that already, though in a way that doesn't keep anyone. It's always instead to compress BRs. That's the problem.

 

BRs in this game are already a mess, and show massive over compression in some areas (See: The difference between 6.7 and 7.7 tanks. It's a world of difference and a fairly common match up). Adding another mode slows down queue times, which tells Gaijin to compress BRs more to compensate. We don't want to see Panzer IVs fighting alongside Panthers, do we? That just wouldn't be fair. As such, a move such as the addition of a new game mode right now is a bad idea.

 

I would very much like to see a tanks only mode in future, if only so the anti-planes crew will stop complaining about aircraft and getting them to be nerfed in all modes, but I don't think it's an option with our current player numbers and Gaijin's mentality.

Funny.  Most of the people that tell me tanks-only mode is bad also tell me that the majority of people are all about playing the combined battles as they are, and that a tank-only mode would be a player-free wasteland.  (though they seem to want to complain about dividing the player base as well)

I have had friends leave this game because they wanted to drive a tank and did not care to fly.  It is the best online vehicle shooter game I've yet played, and I want to keep it.  I do not believe tanks-only will kill combined arms.  If it does, it will do so while making liars of most of the people who have ranted against this since we started posting for the tank-only mode, but it could always be fixed by balancing the combined arms so that both pilots and tankers want to play there.

[TheAnnoyingFinn 856]

9 minutes ago, SilkMonger said:

but it could always be fixed by balancing the combined arms so that both pilots and tankers want to play there.

I was trying to find a compromise and giving ideas on how to make combined arms more desirable for both sides, but you somehow swept that under the rug. And now you are saying it could be balanced for both sides. I really do not follow your way of thinking.

But could you elaborate more on what is so unbalanced currently in the combined arms mode?

[Xogo 990]

2 minutes ago, SilkMonger said:

Funny.  Most of the people that tell me tanks-only mode is bad also tell me that the majority of people are all about playing the combined battles as they are, and that a tank-only mode would be a player-free wasteland.  (though they seem to want to complain about dividing the player base as well)

Well, I'm not one of those people. I think both modes would be populated - just that neither would be populated enough.

 

2 minutes ago, SilkMonger said:

I have had friends leave this game because they wanted to drive a tank and did not care to fly.  It is the best online vehicle shooter game I've yet played, and I want to keep it.  I do not believe tanks-only will kill combined arms.  If it does, it will do so while making liars of most of the people who have ranted against this since we started posting for the tank-only mode, but it could always be fixed by balancing the combined arms so that both pilots and tankers want to play there.

Sure, but we need to have a good long look at what part of combined arms people are complaining about. The main complaint has been that you can't fight planes. The result? Air to ground armament has been nerfed into the ground, and bugs weakening it have been left on low priority. What needs to change is the cost to spawn a plane, and their over blown rewards generation, not their combat prowess. All the current changes have done is frustrate those who wish to play air to ground, while still letting the die hard complain and keep getting them nerfed when they don't need it. Different BRs for planes in Ground Forces would also be a very good addition.

 

I do also think a change in the mindset of the playerbase is needed though. It's a combined arms game, so you have to play it as one. There needs to be at least one or two people playing flak or fighters to fend off ground attackers, or you should and will lose. Except, currently, air to ground can be, for the most part, ignored when it comes to achieving game victory. There are currently very few aircraft that can actually make a major impact without having the enemy team already be down to 5 or 6 players, and yet people still complain about aircraft, despite all but a few examples being objectively weak, and those few examples being very easy to kill while they play air to ground anyway. Unfortunately, I think it's clear at this point thet people will always complain about dying to air power, no matter how much effort and skill the ground attacker had to put into pulling off the shot.

[SilkMonger 1,979]

2 minutes ago, TheAnnoyingFinn said:

I was trying to find a compromise and giving ideas on how to make combined arms more desirable for both sides, but you somehow swept that under the rug. And now you are saying it could be balanced for both sides. I really do not follow your way of thinking.

But could you elaborate more on what is so unbalanced currently in the combined arms mode?

Control of the game in the current "realistic tank battle" mode goes to the pilots.  It does not matter which side has too many pilots, too many planes up ruins the ground game, and people who do not want to fly or who have no skill at flying no longer have a game to play. (If the fliers are really good or really bad (regardless of which team) the tankers are either outnumbered on the ground, and can cap nothing, or they no longer have targets, and once the zones are capped, there is nothing left to do but rush the enemy spawn to kill the few people that try spawning again.  Control of the tank battle should be more in the hands of the tankers, if there isn't going to be a tank-only mode, or the tankers are 2nd class players in this game.

[SilkMonger 1,979]

16 minutes ago, Xogo said:

Well, I'm not one of those people. I think both modes would be populated - just that neither would be populated enough.

You can say that, but I say it would keep the game from losing tankers, and entice more tankers to join the game.

 

16 minutes ago, Xogo said:

Sure, but we need to have a good long look at what part of combined arms people are complaining about. The main complaint has been that you can't fight planes. The result? Air to ground armament has been nerfed into the ground, and bugs weakening it have been left on low priority. What needs to change is the cost to spawn a plane, and their over blown rewards generation, not their combat prowess. All the current changes have done is frustrate those who wish to play air to ground, while still letting the die hard complain and keep getting them nerfed when they don't need it. Different BRs for planes in Ground Forces would also be a very good addition.

My main complaint is that the pilots have more control over the combined mode battles.  To start with, CAS was just getting started in WWII, hence:
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/articles/tactics/tank-busting-ww2.php

CAS was not as effective in WWII as it is in the game, but more importantly, tankers that do not want to learn to fly (or lack the talent for it) are not given a place to play where piloting is not the key to winning. Sure, if someone gets into a realistic or simulator tank game where nobody cares to fly, then tanking skills rule the day!  The problem is that it rarely happens.  It does not matter which side takes to the air in force, or how effective they are, if a given "realistic TANK battle" has too many pilots, it no longer matters what skill the tankers have, the game is controlled by the pilots.  If their pilots suck or your pilots rule, you're left with nobody to fight against, in short order.  If your pilots suck or their pilots rule, you will find yourself outnumbered anywhere you go, and in no time at all the enemy controls every zone and your spawn is camped.

Pilot skills rule both modes of play, tankers are relegated to 2nd class player status.  (TARGETS)

16 minutes ago, Xogo said:

I do also think a change in the mindset of the playerbase is needed though. It's a combined arms game, so you have to play it as one. There needs to be at least one or two people playing flak or fighters to fend off ground attackers, or you should and will lose. Except, currently, air to ground can be, for the most part, ignored when it comes to achieving game victory. There are currently very few aircraft that can actually make a major impact without having the enemy team already be down to 5 or 6 players, and yet people still complain about aircraft, despite all but a few examples being objectively weak, and those few examples being very easy to kill while they play air to ground anyway. Unfortunately, I think it's clear at this point thet people will always complain about dying to air power, no matter how much effort and skill the ground attacker had to put into pulling off the shot.

At low BRs, any fighter with heavy MGs can make a significant impact on the tank battle.  If nothing else, too many players taking to the air on a given side means there aren't the players on the ground to fight the fight anymore.  My point is that players who want only to drive tanks only have those games where neither side has many players in the air in order to have a fun and challenging game.  There is nothing I can do as a tanker to keep my or the other side from taking to the air in numbers and ruining the game for all of the tankers.

[SilkMonger 1,979]

Here is what I will admit, regarding queue times and player base:  If there were a mode of play where only tankers were allowed, and airplanes were DIFFICULT to be able to spawn, (something along the lines of 2 kills and a cap before a light tank could switch!) then that is the tank battle mode I would go for.  It would never see a horde of planes up.  Players would likely play until they died, before respawning in a plane, rather than driving their lowest-cost fast vehicle to the nearest cap and bailing out.  If there were a plane up, it would be challenged by those tankers who could only respawn in an SPAA.  That game would be fighting over the zones more than spawn camping, though I am sure some spawn camping would still happen.  What it would very rarely have is 3+ airplanes camping the enemy spawn.

Now, players that think like me would also very likely abandon the modes we currently call "realistic tank battle".  If there were a simulated mode that either did not include airplanes or made them very difficult to spawn, that is the mode I would glue myself in and (hopefully) come to rule.

Someone pointed out earlier that planes in the "realistic tank battle" and "simulated" mode did not have anything else to do, other than kill tanks.  I agree that this is a bad thing.  I think it is worse that I've been in battles where the planes ignored each other to focus on killing tanks, having some unwritten "gentleman's agreement" to allow the pilots to run their scores up, even at the cost of their teammates.  This too is something I see as wrong.

[NO_DRAGON 2,361]

The simple reason I used an recently given advice and hovered over his nick and set his Posts on Ignore.

 

As he does since ages all the time use the same old arguments "No one wants an Tank only mode" where the popping up of this topics already show the opposite.

 

But its the same at all times, he is never wrong, even if mentioned so in other Topics by the TEAM. See closed CAS Topic.

 

He isn't worth to be listened too anymore as he has played all credibility away and is only trolling to get the opposition to violate the rules. 

If you want to discuss Tank only mode do yourself an favor and set him on ignore so you get not triggered to off topic or rule violations and suddenly the topic becomes fruitful.