joegunn1943

100 ton Japanese Superheavy? In 1941??

13 hours ago, *cartman400 said:

hmm, It's got a Cylinder shaped Turret with a huge boxy chasis. I notice some sloping on the back. It's really hard to see. but I am wondering if this tank lead to the design the O-I tank.

O-I's a late 30's project completed in '43 and in design since 1939, this thing was fully built and running in 1941.

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could it be that it was some developmental stage of the Mi-To?

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Dont want to be handpain. But this thing would be more if issue than good thing to add.

 

Facts of issues these type of tanks bring.

 

  1. These type of tanks would end up placed BR where its main benefit of armor is denied. I own maus, jagdtiger and ferninand and im saying to you. This type tank desing dosent work. Either you make it balance issue rest of its user community or you make it nuisense those who dosent have it.
  2. Bigger gun dosent mean its best desing choice. Compare tiger 2h vs tiger 2 10,5cm. I clearly take tiger 2h over other tank because its rate of fire can save you from groub of enemys when big slow sluggish gun cannot do that. There is reason why is2 and kv2´s typically hide lot. They are to weak to play offensive gameplay. Atlest they can move compared to maus and this thing. Also bigger gun mean easier your to be mobility killed. I killed lot of maus with soviet tanks by taking out its gun and same goes to that t95. These type of tank typically cannot response proper way back. Also maps are typically for offesive operations. When im driving maus in RB im last to point and game is nearly ended and planes kill me.
  3. Gajin economy will handpain your virtual wallet and most likely real wallet like pedobear meme does to kids. These thing end up high BR and they will be placed bigger repain price because its big. There was time AA tanks had biggest repain price BR. 25kk silver for counter for planes. I wonder why did air spam happen lot? Im sure gajin will add huge price to this. Also if this thing gets special ammo more expenses to you.

Thought i would not mind proper heavy tank for japanese. But not something like this. Also i hope they have filler for 3 Rank Br as there is huge jump from 3,3 Br to 5,7br and making proper tank team where rest of them dont lose ability to fucktion is annoing.

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2 minutes ago, elite930 said:

-snip-

 

What has this got to do with the thread? There's not much more than a photograph of the thing and we only know how much it weighed and the date of exhibition. This is just a history thread and not wishlisting.

 

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27 minutes ago, *AllahHuAirlines said:

 

What has this got to do with the thread? There's not much more than a photograph of the thing and we only know how much it weighed and the date of exhibition. This is just a history thread and not wishlisting.

 

 

All ready said it because people would start idealize of adding this tank. I all ready said my option of this in game concept so someone reads my last post they will understand it as adding this in game would be huge let down. Also its not like there aint many post of asking this. Take look of some topics. There are people asking these tanks. I wanted to clarify how bad idea it is.

 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, *AllahHuAirlines said:

 

What has this got to do with the thread? There's not much more than a photograph of the thing and we only know how much it weighed and the date of exhibition. This is just a history thread and not wishlisting.

 

On 27.12.2017 at 8:38 PM, Mausmane said:

 

The O-I might make a fun addition. 

Japanese Maus! :D 

 

On 27.12.2017 at 9:30 PM, Muammar_Gaddaf69 said:

Yes I agree the O-I would be great to have in the game. Although the tank this topic is about is more than likely not the O-I.

 

Your point? Just wanted make a point why i said this. This maybe some historical disgussion in some part. People these days gets into hype train and forgets reality of these vehicles as balance.

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21 minutes ago, elite930 said:

Your point? Just wanted make a point why i said this. This maybe some historical disgussion in some part. People these days gets into hype train and forgets reality of these vehicles as balance.

 

In case you missed it. This thread isn't about the O-I. And the O-I isn't even the topic of this thread. The O-I is discussed here:

 

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37 minutes ago, elite930 said:

 

 

Your point? Just wanted make a point why i said this. This maybe some historical disgussion in some part. People these days gets into hype train and forgets reality of these vehicles as balance.

 

That's for a different tank than the one this thread is focusing on...if you have a problem with the O-I being added, write a post in the actual thread for it.

Your point?

edit: in fact one of the posts you quoted says that this tank is probably not the O-I.

Edited by *AllahHuAirlines
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9 hours ago, *AllahHuAirlines said:

 

That's for a different tank than the one this thread is focusing on...if you have a problem with the O-I being added, write a post in the actual thread for it.

Your point?

edit: in fact one of the posts you quoted says that this tank is probably not the O-I.

 

Dosent make difference in my eyes. both are super heavys what most likely do similiar carnal mistakes where they end up simiar case as rest of super heavys in this game. Wanted say it here as i noticed those post in early on in topic. My post did not cause and distraction to your topic expect your add confusion of post what wasnt even directed to you.

 

But if i was to distracting im sorry and lets continue the 100 ton tank topic. Even im curious of these japanese juggernaus.

 

9 hours ago, Lord_of_Sofa said:

 

In case you missed it. This thread isn't about the O-I. And the O-I isn't even the topic of this thread. The O-I is discussed here:

 

 

This does not matter if directly topic toward O-I or not. When people spoke of it when i responded. I did not simply quote those who spoke of adding there. If we were perfect and continued this topic we would be speaking 100 tons tank now my post of issues adding it when some started saying wanted something like that in game. Should i make topic of my post to forum and add your words there to contiune it? Is this simply irrevelant topic us when its not desired to be spoken.

 

So i say im sorry anyway because it seems im to public distraction to topic when i say concept of these tanks would be awful in war thunder like rest of them are. So continue. Il stay silent. :) Im curious also of this tank.

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6 hours ago, elite930 said:

So i say im sorry anyway because it seems im to public distraction to topic when i say concept of these tanks would be awful in war thunder like rest of them are. 

 

Is the Jumbo awful? Is the Churchill MkVII awful? No, they're heavily armoured tanks for supporting your team mates. The Jumbo has a very lacklustre gun for 4.7 but that doesn't stop it from being immensely popular.

If the O-I is implemented at a BR such as 5.3 where it will actually be fairly balanced, with 150mm armour plates both sloped and flat in places and 11 or so crew making it very survivable, it will be an ideal support tank for the rest of your team much like the Jumbo.

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4 hours ago, *AllahHuAirlines said:

 

Is the Jumbo awful? Is the Churchill MkVII awful? No, they're heavily armoured tanks for supporting your team mates. The Jumbo has a very lacklustre gun for 4.7 but that doesn't stop it from being immensely popular.

If the O-I is implemented at a BR such as 5.3 where it will actually be fairly balanced, with 150mm armour plates both sloped and flat in places and 11 or so crew making it very survivable, it will be an ideal support tank for the rest of your team much like the Jumbo.

 

Sorry comparing this to jumbo is like comparing heavy weight boxer to light weight. Also in that BR it would be to strong to most of tanks with out modern parts. But it can be flanked if im not mistaken its rear armor is not simiar to maus. But still your speaking 150-200mm protections of tank facing shermans and t34s. But its not like im not person who dosent like challenge. Do you have data of its gun? I sense its not super good as its howiter after all. I saw some web sides say its 24s reload like is2. If this tank were to added to game it would be over 6BR. Lets not lie to our self. Even more In AB its BR is most likely 6,3.

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24 minutes ago, elite930 said:

 

Sorry comparing this to jumbo is like comparing heavy weight boxer to light weight. Also in that BR it would be to strong to most of tanks with out modern parts. But it can be flanked if im not mistaken its rear armor is not simiar to maus. But still your speaking 150-200mm protections of tank facing shermans and t34s. But its not like im not person who dosent like challenge. Do you have data of its gun? I sense its not super good as its howiter after all. I saw some web sides say its 24s reload like is2. If this tank were to added to game it would be over 6BR. Lets not lie to our self. Even more In AB its BR is most likely 6,3.

 

>6.3 BR

 

Uh, NO.

 

You can find info in the O-I thread.

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46 minutes ago, elite930 said:

If this tank were to added to game it would be over 6BR. Lets not lie to our self. Even more In AB its BR is most likely 6,3.

It would only be above 6.0 if Gaijin Truly Hated the Japanese Players, most players agree that it should be at 5.3-5.7, anything higher is just asking for it to be bullied into uselessness, it would be like the Ka-Mi, Just a Large Target with alot of space and suvivability, just go read the Pinned O-I Discussion, its 150mm gun with 47mm secondary turrets are 4.3-4.7 material at best, but its armor is arguably better than some 5.3's and 5.7's especially the angled bits but it has HUGE weakspots.

 

but all of this is off topic, this thread is to discuss the Images posted about the supposed 100 ton tank, that looks nothing like any of the blueprints or renditions of the O-I

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5 hours ago, elite930 said:

 

Sorry comparing this to jumbo is like comparing heavy weight boxer to light weight. Also in that BR it would be to strong to most of tanks with out modern parts. But it can be flanked if im not mistaken its rear armor is not simiar to maus. But still your speaking 150-200mm protections of tank facing shermans and t34s. But its not like im not person who dosent like challenge. Do you have data of its gun? I sense its not super good as its howiter after all. I saw some web sides say its 24s reload like is2. If this tank were to added to game it would be over 6BR. Lets not lie to our self. Even more In AB its BR is most likely 6,3.

 

The O-I is 150mm everywhere except for the side armour IIRC (except of course the turret/hull roof and floor). The Jumbo only has similar protection due to the spaced, layered and sloped nature of its' armour- the O-I outright defeats it in raw thickness:

6iwem3teigfy.png

 

Not to mention the fact that the O-I was 120t compared to the M4A3E2's 37.8t. If anything the O-I is the heavyweight :crazy:

 

The American M4A3 76 (W) can defeat 155mm of flat armour at 10m, 154mm at 100m with M79 AP. The British Sherman Firefly can defeat 156mm of flat armour at 500m with Shot Mk 8 APCBC. The French M4A4 SA50 can pierce 150mm of flat armour at 1000m with PCOT-51P APCBC. They can all counter the O-I within its' effective combat range, and they're all at 4.7

 

The gun has APHE, HEAT and HE shells- its' APHE can pierce about 120mm and the HEAT can pierce 150mm. That makes it equal to the US 76mm in raw penetration. This also means it's useless when it comes to facing anything at 6.7.

We can only speculate how long the reload would be- we probably won't see a reload below 30s. Either way Gaijin uses reload speed as a soft balancing method so it's irrelevant.

 

Judging by the gun, armour (and how much the opposition can penetrate) it'll be best at 5.3. We've had the BR discussion many times on the actual O-I thread and pretty much everyone agrees that it should be 5.3- at 5.7 its' armour will be absolutely irrelevant to both 5.7s and above, and if it was at 5.0 it's obvious that most 4.0 tanks will struggle against it.

 

Honestly I think you need to educate yourself more about the O-I's characteristics before drawing any conclusions. 

Edited by *AllahHuAirlines
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Image2.thumb.jpg.2a45af743c779f329a5c03e

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7 hours ago, *cartman400 said:

Image2.thumb.jpg.2a45af743c779f329a5c03e

The 2 rules of the Japanese Heavy subforum;

1. Every thread is an O-I thread.

2. No exceptions.

 

Speaking of the Original thread though, maybe its some kind of Suspention or engine test vehicle? to test the feasibility of such large tank constructions.

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17 hours ago, the_suztown said:

 

Speaking of the Original thread though, maybe its some kind of Suspention or engine test vehicle? to test the feasibility of such large tank constructions.

 

Having gone away and thought about it, I think it was actually a technology demonstrator for selling tanks to other countries- judging by its' appearance at an arms fair and the fact that in 1940, Japan would have been confident enough to start selling domestically produced tanks to other nations as their own tanks had already seen combat, and the domestic tank industry in Japan was probably advanced enough to support production of fairly large orders of tanks. They had the natural resources from conquered assets such as Manchuria to support medium volume production.

Plus it costs a lot of money to produce arms for your own military, and Japan were certainly interested in funding that in 1940 as they attacked the USA in 1941.

Edited by *AllahHuAirlines
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Someone taught me original document, and that is very curious, so I translate it. (sorry for bad english skill)

 

National Diet Library collection, 国防科学大博覧会会誌 (National Defense Science Expo journal), published by Nikkan Kogyo Newspapers

 

Original (Historical Japanese)

Spoiler

 

一〇〇トン戰車 近代戰における戰車の中で最も大きなものは約一〇〇トン位である(稀には百五六十頓のものもある)實際には七〇トンから九〇トン位のものが作られてゐる。これを實物大に再現したのがこの模型大戰車である。備砲は十五糎砲、七糎砲、各一門及び機關銃數挺を裝備し十數名の戰車兵を乘せ、さながら「動く要塞」と呼ばれるほどの大型、獨逸とソ聯との激戰にはこんな大型重戰車が兩軍の間に多數使用されて世界の耳目を聳動した。

この模型大戰車は自動車館の出口と驚異の科學館の入り口との中間に据附けられ、その周圍は自由に運動できる「子供の豆戰車」のグラウンドになつてゐる。大模型戰車に乘込むには戰車の横ツ腹に設けられた入口から中に進む、内部は各種の機械裝置や操縱席、砲手の座席、廻轉する展望窓などが裝備され恰も三階造りの家のやうになつてゐる、この構造を見學して驚異の科學館側の出口へ出るのであるが、時折は子供が三階の展望窓を廻轉させて面白くてたまらぬため、なか/\降りて來ないのに大供が閉口してゐる珍景など殆んど毎日のやうに展開され、場内の呼物として多大の好評を博した。(第一會場をはり)

 

 

Translate to Japanese

Spoiler

 

100トン戦車 近代戦における戦車の中で最も大きなものは約100トンほどです。(まれに、150トンから160トンのものもある)実際には70トンから90トンほどのものが作られています。これを実物大に再現したのがこの模型大戦車です。備砲は15㎝砲、7㎝砲がそれぞれ1門ずつつと、機関銃を数丁装備し、十数名の戦車兵を乗せていて、まるで「動く要塞」だと呼ばれるほどの大型です。ドイツとソ連の間の激戦ではこのような大型の重戦車が両軍の間で多数使用され、世界の人々を驚かせ動揺させました。

この模型の大戦車は自動車館と驚異の科学館の入り口の中間に設置され、その周囲は自由に運動できる「子供の豆戦車」のグラウンドになっています。大模型戦車に乗り込むには、戦車の横っ腹に設けられた入口から中に進みます。内部は各種の機械装置や操縦席、砲手の座席、回転する展望窓などが装備されていて、あたかも三階建ての家のようになっています。この構造を見学して驚異の科学館側の出口へ出るのですが、時々子供が三階の展望窓を回転させて面白くてたまらないため、なかなか降りて来ないことに大人が困っている珍しい光景がほとんど毎日のように展開されていて、会場内の呼び物として大きな好評を博しました。(第一会場おわり)

 

 

Translate to English

Quote

 

100 tons tank

The largest tank in modern warfare is about 100 ton. (In rare cases there are 150 ~ 160 tons). Actually, it builds 70 ~ 90 tons one. This large tank model is reproducing that in full-scale size. Equip gun is one 15cm gun, one 7cm gun and some machine guns and board dozens of tank crews. This is large, so it called same as “moving fortress”. In the battle between Germany and Soviet Union, each side use lots of such a large heavy tank, so world peoples surprised and shaken.

 This model large tank is placed between gate of “Vehicle Palace” and “Wonder Science Palace”, and surroundings is “Childs Tankette” ground to exercise freely. When go into large model tank, use gate on the side of the tank. Inside of it there are several machines, driver sheet, gunner sheet and rotate observation window, and it same as Three-storey hose. Tour these structures and exit to “Wonder Science Palace” side, but sometime child does not come out easily because rotating observation window in third floor is very fun, so parents worried it in every day. That is nice attraction in the hall, and it gained popularity. (1st expo place end)

 

 

This tank seems Imaginary one used by Germany and Soviet Army.

 

 

Posters of this expo. This expo Sponsorship by Nikkan Kogyo Newspapers and Science mobilization association.

Location is Hankyu Nishinomiya Baseball studium. (Hyogo pref) and Takaraduka, so Hankyu Electric Railways will have to do with this.

 

Edited by aizenns
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2 hours ago, aizenns said:

 

 

Thank you for translating that. It being a mock-up was what I was kind-of expecting, but nevertheless I still find it really interesting (even if the tank it was supposedly modeled after never existed). The bit about children running around it and other areas of the expos too made me laugh. I'm kinda surprised I've never seen mention of the mock-up before, though.

 

Also, looking through it seems that a better quality version of the front picture of the mock-up isn't included in the document, unfortunately. Or I just missed it.

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On ‎10‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 19:45, *AllahHuAirlines said:

Honestly I think you need to educate yourself more about the O-I's characteristics before drawing any conclusions. 

 

It would do you good to follow your own advice. The idea that the O-I had 150mm of armor everywhere is a weeaboo fabrication. The engineers who worked on the tank that gave account of the construction process, specifically Shigeo Otaka, stated that the armor was 75+75 at the very front, and 35+35 at the sides. They did not mention the top, bottom, or rear. The blueprints for the O-I (below) clearly show that the armor is the same thickness all over, and is definitely not 150mm. In fact it amounts to a disappointing ~30mm.

Mi-To-1.png

This is corroborated by FineMolds, the very people who own the O-I documents, who say that the maximum armor of the vehicle was 35mm.

20180414_145753.png

Edited by Hunter12396
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1 hour ago, Hunter12396 said:

 

It would do you good to follow your own advice. The idea that the O-I had 150mm of armor everywhere is a weeaboo fabrication. The engineers who worked on the tank that gave account of the construction process, specifically Shigeo Otaka, stated that the armor was 75+75 at the very front, and 35+35 at the sides. They did not mention the top, bottom, or rear. The blueprints for the O-I (below) clearly show that the armor is the same thickness all over, and is definitely not 150mm. In fact it amounts to a disappointing ~30mm.

Mi-To-1.png

This is corroborated by FineMolds, the very people who own the O-I documents, who say that the maximum armor of the vehicle was 35mm.

20180414_145753.png

this feels like O-I is a 1930 tier tank

probably similar to french B1

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2 hours ago, Hunter12396 said:

 

It would do you good to follow your own advice. The idea that the O-I had 150mm of armor everywhere is a weeaboo fabrication. The engineers who worked on the tank that gave account of the construction process, specifically Shigeo Otaka, stated that the armor was 75+75 at the very front, and 35+35 at the sides. They did not mention the top, bottom, or rear. The blueprints for the O-I (below) clearly show that the armor is the same thickness all over, and is definitely not 150mm. In fact it amounts to a disappointing ~30mm.

If we really want to be 100% accurate, the O-I didn't even have armour, just a 35mm construction steel 'skeleton'. Of-course the O-I was just an unfinished and un-armed failed prototype, but nobody is asking for that. Everybody is asking for the final planned O-I.

Edited by Muammar_Gaddaf69
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2 hours ago, Muammar_Gaddaf69 said:

If we really want to be 100% accurate, the O-I didn't even have armour, just a 35mm construction steel 'skeleton'. Of-course the O-I was just an unfinished and un-armed failed prototype, but nobody is asking for that. Everybody is asking for the final planned O-I.

We don't know what the final plan was though is the problem. It seems obvious the armor changed over development.
All I know for a fact is that it cannot be 150mm all over. We did the math and if it was the tank would weigh over 225 tons

Edit: also it did have armor. Presumably the 35mm. I originally thought that number came from the structural skeleton like you say but its clear from the blueprints that its armor. If the tank didn't have *any* armor when it was built, it would A. Be full of holes and not look like an actual completed anything, and B. Be much lighter than the 96 tons the prototype without main turret roof weighed in at

Edited by Hunter12396
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5 hours ago, Hunter12396 said:

 

It would do you good to follow your own advice. The idea that the O-I had 150mm of armor everywhere is a weeaboo fabrication. The engineers who worked on the tank that gave account of the construction process, specifically Shigeo Otaka, stated that the armor was 75+75 at the very front, and 35+35 at the sides. They did not mention the top, bottom, or rear. The blueprints for the O-I (below) clearly show that the armor is the same thickness all over, and is definitely not 150mm. In fact it amounts to a disappointing ~30mm.

Mi-To-1.png

This is corroborated by FineMolds, the very people who own the O-I documents, who say that the maximum armor of the vehicle was 35mm.

20180414_145753.png

 

...Which si worng, seeing as the documents we have support the conclusion that the O-I's Front and Rear armor is 75+75 mm armor, which amounts to -gasp- 150 MILLIMETERS. Nobody has stated that the O-I's armor ALL AROUND was 150 millimeters. In fact, it is well known the armor profile looks like this: 1193163401_O-IArmorprofile.thumb.png.867

 

However, the O-I prototype was a 30mm skeleton with 75mm front and back plates, amounting to a 96 ton tank.

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1 minute ago, joegunn1943 said:

 

...Which si worng, seeing as the documents we have support the conclusion that the O-I's Front and Rear armor is 75+75 mm armor, which amounts to -gasp- 150 MILLIMETERS. Nobody has stated that the O-I's armor ALL AROUND was 150 millimeters. In fact, it is well known the armor profile looks like this: 1193163401_O-IArmorprofile.thumb.png.867

 

However, the O-I prototype was a 30mm skeleton with 75mm front and back plates, amounting to a 96 ton tank.

What documents are you referring to? I have shown you my original documents indicating that the armor was 35mm, but I have not seen any indicating it was 150mm. This drawing is not an official document.

 

Also, yes, that layout does show the armor as 150mm *all around*

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