CharisRipple

APHE balance and an interesting video shows how it should work IRL

Welcome to another topic about APHE.

 

This is a promotion video from IMI Systems(formerly Israel Military Industries), one of the famous weapon manufacturer in the world.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Military_Industries

 

It mainly demonstrates a 120mm HE-MP-T shell, which could be considered as an APHE with tons of explosive mass. Do keep in mind that this is a modern shell and mainly focus on HE power rather than AP ablility, so the explosion of WWII-era APHE would be much much weaker than what you see in the video.

 

Please jump to 1:28. On the right side you can see an animated explosion process. It clearly shows that basically all fragments would move forward. You could also check 2:05, even the explosion would not move backward, and you can see how those fragments hit the ground. (we do not count shockwave and other potential damage).

Spoiler

                                000.thumb.jpg.7c9f9377cc61842271d3261747                                    002.thumb.jpg.6c9aec53d336c31d4cd6a371e6

 

So why in WT an APHE to the turret from front could even kill the driver? Where is the physics?:dntknw:(again we do not count shockwave and other potential damage)

Spoiler

3.thumb.png.b7d7466a9332bac03ee8a04026e3

 

Sure this is not a book, or some mystery russian websites, but as a weapon manufacturer who test, produce and sell weapons, they are more reliable than those random journalists, right?:) They would not lie in their promotion video because all their customers and competitors are able and would be happy to point it out.

 

HESH has been "fixed" to its "historical accuracy", now it is time for APHE.

 

What is your opinion on APHE?

 

Appendix:

Some information for you to understand APHE, thanks to Godman_82.

 

Edited by CharisRipple
covered the big picture; changed the topic name; changed Godman's report to a new one
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4 minutes ago, JagdEnte said:

Moved to a more matching section :salute:

Thank you for the work; however I think this topic is more close to a disscusion about the balance of ground forces in general rather than a Academy/Players helping Players topic. There are also many ammo topic under Ground Forces Discussion, I do not see the reason why only this topic has been moved to here.

 

Could you please move it back? Ground Forces Discussion also has much more population for disscusion.

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1 minute ago, CharisRipple said:

Thank you for the work; however I think this topic is more close to a disscusion about the balance of ground forces in general rather than a Academy/Players helping Players topic. There are also many ammo topic under Ground Forces Discussion, I do not see the reason why only this topic has been moved to here.

 

Could you please move it back? Ground Forces Discussion also has much more population for disscusion.

Thinking about it .... Let me read over it again real quick.

Moved it back to the old section. Pardon!

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3 minutes ago, JagdEnte said:

Thinking about it .... Let me read over it again real quick.

Moved it back to the old section. Pardon!

Thank you very much.

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38 minutes ago, AtomicPope said:

I think there's enough info already to correct APHE performance but my guess is that Gaijin is reluctant to implement it because it would mean that alot of rebalancing to be done, more than with most other changes so far. 

Worse - it will completely change play style for many vehicles and even whole tech trees. Right now when playing some low pen shells with big filler like 122 mm in IS series on high tiers I'm aiming for some ridiculous spots because I know if I will find some penable pixels in far corner of tank APHE will fill it with sphere o fragments. With all other ammo in game we have to aim at weakspots which has some vital component behind (crew/modules).

 

So there devs can be opposite to it but also many many players too especially from two biggest tech trees Germ/Soviet. But fixing APHE magic sphere of death spell from AD&D will in my opinion really help game. Cos now after series of nerfs to all ammo types APHE doesn't fit them at all and also solve many issues like cupolas.

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49 minutes ago, WuWu_84 said:

Worse - it will completely change play style for many vehicles and even whole tech trees. Right now when playing some low pen shells with big filler like 122 mm in IS series on high tiers I'm aiming for some ridiculous spots because I know if I will find some penable pixels in far corner of tank APHE will fill it with sphere o fragments. With all other ammo in game we have to aim at weakspots which has some vital component behind (crew/modules).

 

So there devs can be opposite to it but also many many players too especially from two biggest tech trees Germ/Soviet. But fixing APHE magic sphere of death spell from AD&D will in my opinion really help game. Cos now after series of nerfs to all ammo types APHE doesn't fit them at all and also solve many issues like cupolas.

 

Yeah obviously fixing APHE to act more realistic would overall improve the game, but as you say quite alot of vehicles/guns would act very differently now and game balance would be a complete mess(I mean more than now lol) if those changes dropped without any previous internal testing.

 

I hope that they make APHE realistic but it would probably involve lots of internal testing to reshuffle BR before it gets publicly implemented(or maybe not as we can tell from experience:016:)

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49 minutes ago, AtomicPope said:

 

Yeah obviously fixing APHE to act more realistic would overall improve the game, but as you say quite alot of vehicles/guns would act very differently now and game balance would be a complete mess(I mean more than now lol) if those changes dropped without any previous internal testing.

 

I hope that they make APHE realistic but it would probably involve lots of internal testing to reshuffle BR before it gets publicly implemented(or maybe not as we can tell from experience:016:)

Like how they did with HESH?:016: It changed the whole balance above 7.0 BR.

 

I am fine with a relatively powerful APHE but at least I hope they could fix the issue with cupolas.

 

 

Edited by CharisRipple
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17 minutes ago, CharisRipple said:

Like how they did with HESH?:016: It changed the whole balance above 7.0 BR.

 

I am fine with a relatively powerful APHE but at least I hope they could fix the issue with cupolas.

 

 

for fixing the cupola issue they need to fix the aphe unless gaijin deside to fix like they did in the T95 

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4 minutes ago, CharisRipple said:

fix the issue with cupolas

That's not only cupolas - in boxy tank like Cromwell or PzIV you can hit corner above engine in back of tank and kill everyone in turret and driver sometimes too. Same goes for periscopes or hatches - you can hit pixel sticking out of turret and APHE will rain down killing everyone in turret (and driver sometimes too). To fix that they will need ridicules amount of time to model this elements as separate parts of add some artificial armor plates to separate them from crew compartment like they did in T95. That's why I'm thinking that making a APHE damage model similar to other ones (as projectile, first and second cone of shrapnel after some time/distance) will help devs too in longer perspective because mistakes in models will be harder to exploit and less prominent.

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From what I looked at further after I helped Godman a little , the entire damage system would have to be reworked, and it would just bring up more frustration, because at first glance, it would be even more random.

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APHE fragments can't punch thought other side tank armor and ricochet all over crew compartment hurt everyone inside .

so if they rework APHE damage . it still hurt all crews

Edited by VNSeptemberSnow
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41 minutes ago, VNSeptemberSnow said:

APHE fragments can't punch thought other side tank armor and ricochet all over crew compartment hurt everyone inside .

so if they rework APHE damage . it still hurt all crews

Yes but that applys to all AP rounds and HESH.

 

Currently there is no such mechanics in the game, it would be a much bigger work than just rework the fragments of APHE, and there could be some technical issues with the game engine. I do not want a 100% realistic game (hey we also have stuff like shockwave), but if the devs corrected the fragments of other shells, they should also correct the fragments of APHE.

Edited by CharisRipple
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3 hours ago, TheGun31 said:

for fixing the cupola issue they need to fix the aphe unless gaijin deside to fix like they did in the T95 

To be fair, without the cupola thing on the T95 it would would probably go up to 7.0 or maybe a tiny bit higher.

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"No no comrade, all ammo is working as Stalin himself wrote down in his diary... working as intended" 

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IMO, the mechanic for post penetration shattering of all projectiles that aren't HEAT, HE, or HESH should be implemented, and APHE potential greatly reduced to what Godman's Research points out. 

 

If they can ninja nerf Solid Shot, HEAT and whatever, this can be done too. 

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1 hour ago, CharisRipple said:

Yes but that applys to all AP rounds and HESH.

 

Currently there is no such mechanics in the game, it would be a much bigger work than just rework the fragments of APHE, and there could be some technical issues with the game engine. I do not want a 100% realistic game (hey we also have stuff like shockwave), but if the devs corrected the fragments of other shells, they should also correct the fragments of APHE.

 

This is really not a big work tbh. All they would need to do is add some sort of bounce material to the particles. Hell! Even not this. Particles already have colliders (they collide with crew and components), all they would need to to is to add "Bounce and with each bounce drop x energy". For sure they have some particle system in place that is like a blueprint for all particles in the game coded and they just swap values here and there to make new particles.

 

At least this is how big engines like Unity or UE4 are doing it.

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2 hours ago, VNSeptemberSnow said:

APHE fragments can't punch thought other side tank armor and ricochet all over crew compartment hurt everyone inside .

so if they rework APHE damage . it still hurt all crews

 

Except that's not how it works in real life. Take a gander at Godman's research and you'll see just how few crewmen were killed or wounded per penetration. 

 

28 minutes ago, BlazeOfJoy said:

This is really not a big work tbh. All they would need to do is add some sort of bounce material to the particles. Hell! Even not this. Particles already have colliders (they collide with crew and components), all they would need to to is to add "Bounce and with each bounce drop x energy". For sure they have some particle system in place that is like a blueprint for all particles in the game coded and they just swap values here and there to make new particles.

 

At least this is how big engines like Unity or UE4 are doing it.

 

Remember that tanks aren't just steel boxes on tracks. There's all kinds of stuff that fragments can hit and be slowed down or stopped by. Not to mention that simulating all those collisions would be pretty intensive.

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14 minutes ago, DebtlessWalnut said:

Why did pretty much every nation in WW2 except the British develop stronger and stronger APHE ammunition if it was so inferior to solid shot?

 

Because what they had was actually never good enough?  The British actually hit on "the solution"......

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Ok I'd like to just say that we all know that ALL ROUNDS are not acting how they did IRL, that's a fact, mostly because Gaijin can't be bothered making each round different (even same types acted differently from one another)..

 

But in that video it only shows rounds hitting structures, looks like made from concrete, and lightly armored APC's. Nothing showing what happens when it hits an actual tank with REAL armor. So I highly doubt this will be looked at..

Even if you did find the proper information it comes down to whether or not Gaijin will do it, and SOOO MANY people have already tried and Gaijin has shot them down, they're defensive of things have to be how THEY say it is..

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29 minutes ago, DebtlessWalnut said:

Why did pretty much every nation in WW2 except the British develop stronger and stronger APHE ammunition if it was so inferior to solid shot?

APHE was used to kill the CREW, which would bail and mostly survive after the tanks armour was penetrated.

but if there was an explosion inside the tank with them still inside, there was a much higher chance for them to be hurt, crippled or simply killed which in the end would mean a nation would loose experienced tank crews and it takes time to let new soldiers learn how to use a tank, effectively weakening their side on the long run as well

 

on APHE in general: i wouldnt mind a change and would welcome a realistic behaviour of ALL ammunition types, not just something like "it has fins on it, so it deals TONS of damage" when comparing APDS and APFSDS (to just name a simple and annoying "feature")

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We also have the issue of weight to explosive ratio and TNT equivalent.

Currently only TNT equivalent is taken into account.

Weight to explosive ratio is as important, if not more, but totally ignored.

 

APHE should be scaled by TNT equivalent on ~0.5 % HE filled shells, not 10% filled shells, as they are currently.

 

E.g. real grenades are about 50% HE. This is the optimum ratio for high energy fragmentation. 50% by weight.

 

HE-fragmentation shells are typically 10% HE filler by weight. This is near the optimum weight to explosive ratio to get high energy fragmentation, and still survive being fired from a gun, even though this is worse than a grenade for the same TNT.

Effective APHE like those used in Naval shells were 1-3% HE filler (only had to pen ~1 * caliber). 1% HE filled APHE is 10* worse than 10% HE-frag shells for the same TNT load for energetic fragmentation.. I.e. When you put 10 times too much mass on your HE-frag shell, it gets 10times worse, despite being a much larger shell!

 

Meanwhile "Panzergranate 39" is 0.2% HE.

There is a minimum energy to shatter the shell, and this is only just enough filler to shatter it.

It is underfilled by a factor of 50 to be able to be compared with a HE-frag shell on TNT load, and then would be scaled down even further on its raw TNT, and you also need to take into account the energy required to shatter the shell, which makes it even worse again. I.e. this shell is 50*50 = 250 times too powerful for its "grenade" effect, even before considering the energy required to break the shell.

 

Even if you get APHE with ~1% HE, like the Russian 85mm gun, its weight to explosive ratio is 10* smaller than a HE-frag shell - each bit of its explosive has to do 10* the work compared to an actual HE-frag shell, in addition to being 10* less TNT overall.

 

It would have to have fragments weighing 10 times less to be 1/10th as effective as a HE frag shell, e.g. a 37mm HE-frag shell or something like that, with the same TNT as the 85mm shell, but 1/10 the weight. But as it has 10 times worse HE-weight ratio, and has 10 times less explosive compared to a full 85mm HE-frag shell, it should be 10*10 = 100 times less powerful, not just 10 like it currently is.

 

And that's for a 1% HE shell. 0.2% HE only just has enough energy to shatter the shell, and would have almost no energetic fragmentation, it should just fall apart, in a cone through the air as described in many other places. 

 

That is why not only TNT equivalent matters, but explosive-fragment ratio, and agrees with the actual reports, and why the only APHE in existence today has fillings over ~3%. Anything smaller is a total waste of time.

 

The 128mm Pak44 has something like 2-3% HE, this is real APHE, but is still about 4* too powerful.

 

Scaling down HE-frag shells means every APHE is at least 10* too powerful currently, the KV-2 is the about the only shell that is correct with an actual 10% filling.

 

I hope they fix this, cupola and turret shots that kill drivers by exploding backwards are ridiculous. 

 

Any shell can shatter in real life, and that's all most APHE should be able to do.

Edited by EE51555
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