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*tester188

[1.73.1.83] Ki-49-I wrong bomb

1. Ki-49-I Donryu
 
2. The bomb payload option of Ki-49 is wrong.
In historical fact, Ki-49 was a bomber of Imperial Japanese Army Air Service.
However, in the game, bomb of Japanese Navy is loaded.
 
3. In order to confirm this problem, I saw a stat card.

Spoiler

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Client Log 

2017_11_20_11_46_25__12264.clog

 

4. I propose to change the payload option and load Japanese Army bomb.

Spoiler

Payload Option 1

  • 50 kg Army Type 94 GPHE x 15

 

Payload Option 2

  • 100 kg Army Type 94 GPHE x 10

 

Payload Option 3

  • 250 kg Army Type 92 GPHE x 4

 

Payload Option 4

  • 500 kg Army Type 92 GPHE x 2

 

 

Source

User Manual:

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Manual for operating Type 100, heavy bomber with drawings (一〇〇式重爆撃機説明書). by Army Air headquarters (陸軍航空本部). August 1941. Page 117.

http://dl.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/8815751/69?itemId=info%3Andljp%2Fpid%2F8815751&contentNo=69&__lang=en

 

Manual for operating Type 100, heavy bomber with drawings by Army Air headquarters, August 1941.pdf

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oMq2R7PnqVkEepfg_sHJykGGguLnUnoz/view?usp=sharing

* I know the guidelines that do not accept external link files, but because the PDF of the Ki-49 flight manual is 60 MB, I uploaded it to Google Drive unavoidably.

 

 

Historical documents:

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Type 100 Heavy Bomber provisional official adoption (一〇〇式重爆撃機仮制式制定ノ件). by Army Air headquarters (陸軍航空本部). September 1940. Page 80.

JACAR(Japan Center for Asian Historical Records)Ref.C01004779100, Mitsu Dainikki, Vol. 5, 1940 (National Institute for Defense Studies)

https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/das/contents/pdf/C01/C01004779100.c0010200033.mitudai_097.1544_01.pdf

 

 

Books:

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MILITARY CLASSICS VOL.55. IKAROS Publications LTD. October 2016. 雑誌コード: 18441-12. Page 29, 31.

(This is a magazine, so there is no ISBN / ISSN.)

 

 

Japanese Army Bomb Source

Historical documents:

Spoiler

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Bombing training manual (爆撃教育仮規定別冊). by Army Air headquarters (陸軍航空本部). September 1937. Page 35-36.

JACAR(Japan Center for Asian Historical Records)Ref.C01004477200, Mitsu Dainikki, Vol. 8, 1938 (National Institute for Defense Studies)

https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/aj/contents/pdf/C01/C01004477200.c0010200025.mitudai_069.0013_01.pdf

Edited by *tester188
Added historical documents of Ki-49-I and Japanese army bomb to source, and Information inside the bomb bay.
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Thank you for report.

 

This is interesting, will get back this week.

 

Keep in mind Japanese bombers sacrifice payload for range, and removing the 800kg bombs from IJA bombers impacts game balance.

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I have some questions I need help answering:

 

1. did the Army ever use Navy bombs? (probably not, but do not know).

2. You have the info on the Army bombs?

3. Is this the only aircraft with wrong bombs?  Do Navy have Army?

May be more questions on this.

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Hello, @Pony51.

Thank you for checking my report and asking questions.

 

I will answer your question.

 

On 2017/12/1 at 2:37 AM, Pony51 said:

1. did the Army ever use Navy bombs? (probably not, but do not know).

Briefly, IJA and IJN have poor cooperative relationships, so they tended to develop and use weapons of the same purpose separately.
IJA aircraft loaded army bombs and the IJN aircraft loaded navy bombs.
Exceptionally, it seems there was a case where navy bombs were loaded on IJA's anti-submarine patrol aircraft.
Example of loading the 800 kg Navy bomb to the IJA aircraft for Kamikaze special attack there was.

Spoiler

IJA and IJN were using different things for the bomb suspension.

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RAAF Notes on Japanese Bombs and Fuzes. Page 2.

https://ja.scribd.com/document/62038687/RAAF-Notes-on-Japanese-Bombs-and-Fuzes

 

 

This is the inventory table of the IJA ammunition depot at the end of war.
There are Navy bombs, but the number is small, and you can see that the Army bomb was mainly used in IJA aircraft.

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軍需品(兵器)引継明細書(三宝后山弾葯集積所)第106飛行場大隊. JACAR(Japan Center for Asian Historical Records)Ref.C15010362800, February 1, 1946 List of issuance related to weapons(National Institute for Defense Studies). Page 3-4.

https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/aj/contents/pdf/C15/C15010362800.c1222800006.chuo-shusensyori-040.chuo-shusensyori-040_0567_01.pdf

 

 

Japanese aircraft had a massive payload at Kamikaze special attack.
When they could not find an enemy, they sometimes thrown out the bomb to return to the base.
I think that it is necessary to discuss whether or not to reflect this special payload in the game.

Spoiler

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Special Attack Records (IJA Version), IJAAF Kamikaze Special Attack Manual. Written by Kazuhiko Oshio. March 2005. ISBN-13: 978-4769812272. Page 101.

 

 

On 2017/12/1 at 2:37 AM, Pony51 said:

2. You have the info on the Army bombs?

Yes, I have a lot of information on the Japanese Army bomb.
This time we will quote the contents of the book and provide information on the Japanese Army bomb.
We will be prepared to provide further information if necessary.

Spoiler

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Japanese Military aircraft dictionary 1910-1945 (Army version). Written by Shigeru Nohara. October 2005. ISBN-13: 978-4871497329. Page 182-183.

 

Type 92 and Type 94 Bomb
This bomb was officially adopted in 1932 and 1934.
It was widely used in World War II.
The main types are as follows.

  • Type 92 15 kg Bomb
  • Type 92 250 kg Bomb
  • Type 92 500 kg Bomb
  • Type 94 50 kg Bomb
  • Type 94 100 kg Bomb

 

Type 3 Bomb

Pacific War began. IJAAS needed to attack US Navy ships.
Type 92 and Type 94 bomb are exclusively for soft targets, so they were inappropriate for hard targets.
Armor penetrating bombs were developed. Type 3 bomb was officially adopted in December 1943.
There were the following types by weight. There are five choices.

  • Type 3 Bomb (Semi-Armor-Piercing Bomb): 1000 kg, 500 kg, 250 kg, 100 kg, 50 kg Bomb

 

There was another kind different from anti-ship SAP bomb in Type 3 bomb.

  • Type 3 Fall Speed Limit Bomb: 100 kg and 50 kg bomb
  • Type 3 Air Burst Bomb: 100 kg and 50 kg bomb
  • Type 3 Anti-Airfield Bomb: 50 kg bomb

 

Ta-Dan HEAT Cluster Bomb
The purpose for which this bomb was developed is the same as Type 3 Anti-Airfield Bomb. 
It was developed to destroy enemy planes on the ground.
Japan acquired HEAT technology from Germany.
Mainly used was a 30 kg bomb containing 30 small bombs.
This bomb was also used for the interception of the B-29 raid at Japan and the attack on the enemy ground troops.

 

Type 4 Bomb
Late war. The US Navy submarine was a serious threat to the Japanese ships.
Anti-submarine warfare was an important mission of IJA.
IJAAS 's maritime patrol aircraft was using anti-submarine bombs and depth charge from IJN.
In January 1944, IJA decided to officially adopt the bomb used by IJN.
Basically it is the same as a navy bomb, IJA changed the bomb suspension hanging for navy to army.
There were the following four kinds. The next is the name of the bomb in the navy.

  • Type 4 Anti-Ship 250 kg Bomb (Type 99 Number 25 Ordinary Bomb)
  • Type 4 Anti-Ship 60 kg Bomb (Type 1 Number 6 Ordinary Bomb)
  • Type 4 Anti-Submarine 250 kg Bomb (Type 1 Number 25 Ordinary Bomb)
  • Type 4 Anti-Submarine 60 kg Bomb (Type 99 Number 6 Ordinary Bomb)

 

 

On 2017/12/1 at 2:37 AM, Pony51 said:

3. Is this the only aircraft with wrong bombs?  Do Navy have Army?

Since the same problem has occurred in Ki-49-II (all model), we want to report it collectively in this bug report if possible.
 

I do not intend to report it all together, but the Ki-84 is loaded with a 250 kg Navy bomb but the Army 100 kg bomb and 250 kg bomb are missing.
There is a possibility that a 250 kg navy bomb was loaded as anti-submarine bomb, but it is strange that there is no payload option for the Army bomb.

 

IJA aircraft loaded navy bombs because there was not enough bombs for anti-submarine attacks and there were no large bombs for special attacks. 
IJN had plenty of different types of bombs. I think that IJN aircraft have almost never loaded army bombs.

Edited by *tester188
Add source.
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どうもありがとうございました
 

This will be useful for historical accuracy.

 

The major issue is loss of bomb capacity for Japan.  In game the bombs are already lacking in KG bomb-load, making this faction more easily defeated.

 

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Did the Japanese have experimental bombs bigger than 800kg?

Was experiments so the Ki-49 or others carry more load?

 

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Hello, konnichiwa, @Pony51.

 

On 2017/12/13 at 7:26 AM, Pony51 said:

The major issue is loss of bomb capacity for Japan.  In game the bombs are already lacking in KG bomb-load, making this faction more easily defeated.

As you are concerned, game balance is very important.

 

This is a change plan that realizes historical accuracy while considering game balance.

Spoiler

Payload Option 1
50 kg Army Type 94 GPHE bomb x 15
 
Payload Option 2
100 kg Army Type 94 GPHE bomb x 10
 
Payload Option 3
250 kg Army Type 92 GPHE bomb x 4

 

Payload Option 4
250 kg Navy Type Number 25 Model 2 bomb  x 4

Payload Option 5
500 kg Army Type 92 GPHE bomb x 2

 

Payload Option 6
800 kg Navy Type Number 80 Model 1 bomb x 1 

Although this is a rare case historically, the Ki-49 can load 800 kg navy bomb and drop it.

 

Source

Spoiler

Ki-49 can load and drop 800 kg navy bomb using 500 kg bomb rack and bomb dispenser.

八〇番通: 800 kg Navy Type Number 80 Model 1 Ordinary Bomb x1

二五番通: 250 kg Navy Type Number 25 Model 2 Ordinary Bomb x4

Spoiler

Books 1:

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Special Attack Records (IJA Version), IJAAF Kamikaze Special Attack Manual (May 1945). Written by Kazuhiko Oshio. March 2005. ISBN-13: 978-4769812272. Page 101.

 

 

IJA officially adopted 800 kg Navy Type Number 80 Model 1 Ordinary Bomb as Type 4 Anti-shipping Bomb.

Spoiler

Books 2:

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Japanese Naval Aircraft Bombs till 1945. Written by Hyodo Nisohachi. November 2010. ISBN-13: 978-4769826644. Page 267.

 

 

There is a bomb suspension belt to load 800 kg Navy Type Number 80 Model 1 Ordinary Bomb onto the IJA aircraft.

Spoiler

Historical documents:

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Japanese explosive ordnance. Report No. 1o(89), USSBS Index Section 2. May 1945. Page 13, 17.

http://dl.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/8318362?itemId=info%3Andljp%2Fpid%2F8318362&__lang=en

 

 

 

 

On 2017/12/13 at 7:26 AM, Pony51 said:

Did the Japanese have experimental bombs bigger than 800kg?

 

IJA's large bomb

  • Type 95 1000 kg Bomb
Spoiler

Historical documents:

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Secret Weapon Overview Filing (秘密兵器概説綴). Ministry of the Army (Japan). March 1936. Page 31 (PDF: 35-36).

JACAR(Japan Center for Asian Historical Records)Ref.A03032131600, 返赤35026000(Holdings:National Archives of Japan)

https://www.digital.archives.go.jp/das/contents/pdf/S48B0500640000/0514.pdf

 

  • Type 3 1000 kg Bomb
Spoiler

Books:

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Japanese Naval Aircraft Bombs till 1945. Written by Hyodo Nisohachi. November 2010. ISBN-13: 978-4769826644. Page 263.

 

 

On 2017/12/13 at 7:26 AM, Pony51 said:

Was experiments so the Ki-49 or others carry more load?

The Ki-49 was the prototype Ki-49-III which strengthened the engine, but the maximum load was 1000 kg.

Spoiler

Books:

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Japanese military aircraft photograph collection. Ushioshobokojinshinsha Co., Ltd, December 2001. ISBN-13: 978-4769812258. Page 295.

 

Edited by *tester188

Pony51 (Posted )

I will move to Aircraft > Japan > Bombers, very useful data for other to see.
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こんにちは.

 

This is very useful information, better suited for History section.

I will still file a report to Dev to work on.

The data on the 1000kg bombs may be used to help balance the Japanese tree.

 

The issue is only with Ki-49's?  All of the models?

Ki-49-I

Ki-49-IIa

Ki-49-IIb

Ki-49-IIb (late)

 

"I do not intend to report it all together, but the Ki-84 is loaded with a 250 kg Navy bomb but the Army 100 kg bomb and 250 kg bomb are missing.
There is a possibility that a 250 kg navy bomb was loaded as anti-submarine bomb, but it is strange that there is no payload option for the Army bomb."

This could be fixed easily, since the IJA has a 250kg bomb, probably cause no issue to change.

 

Sorry for my limited knowledge of Japanese aircraft.

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Thank you for your support.
 

The contents of this bug report should cover the following aircraft.

 

1. The full name of the vehicle affected. 

  • Ki-49-I
  • Ki-49-IIa
  • Ki-49-IIb
  • Ki-49-IIb (late)


I was worried that reporting multiple aircraft in one bug report may have violated the guidelines.

 

ありがとう。

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This is actually an "interface" error.

Wrong bombs listed, not actual error in model.  

 

Need to work on report...

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Created 3 different reports from this one report!

Covers the wrong load in 49, the mix of Navy bombs on Army aircraft, and 1 bomb was not properly named.

Phew

 

 

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archived

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