Type 92 Jyu-Sokosha  

171 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the Type 92 Jyu-Sokosha (Mid production) be added to the game?

    • Yes
      112
    • Yes, as prenium/gift/events vehicles
      15
    • No
      44
  2. 2. Should the Type 92 Jyu-Sokosha (Late production) be added to the game?

    • Yes
      138
    • Yes, as prenium/gift/events vehicles
      13
    • No
      20
  3. 3. Should the Type 92 Jyu-Sokosha (With 20mm Type 98) be added to the game?

    • yes
      133
    • Yes, as prenium/gift/events vehicles
      28
    • No
      10


wallpaper-349563.jpg

 

I would like to suggest officially the Type 97 Jyu-Sokosha for Warthunder

1200px-Type_92_Iju_Sokosha_Tankette.jpg

 

The Type 92 was a very light and very early tankette of the Japaneses army (also often qualified as Heavy armored combat car). the Type 92 was built in 1932 to 1939. initially armed with 2x type 91 6.5 mm, one in the turret and another one in the hull; the early type 92 was also having 6 road-wheel and a torsion bar suspension. a few early was later equipped with a Type 92 13.2mm MG as replacement for the hull MG (let's call it the mid production).

a later production was developed in Manchuria with new modifications included a new drive train, new redesigned portholes and vision slits with different swing. it was now equipped with 4 road-wheel instant of 6 and armed with a new Type 96 7.7mm MG in the turret instant of the Type 91 6.5mm. an additional anti-aircraft MG was often mounted in the rear of the turret and with the engine panel open, a sit could be improvised for the rear gunner.

a trial of fitting a 37mm gun in the hull in place of the 13.2mm was tried but was proved impracticable. a later up-grade was also tried and this time successfully fitting a type 98 20mm gun in place of the Type 92 13.2mm in the hull giving the tankette a better anti-aircraft capacity and also anti-tank capacity. while the trial was a sucess, the up-grade never saw any fallowing action because the type 92 Jyu-Sokosha was already obsolete and under-performing compared to the newer tankette and light tank such as the Type 95 Ha-Go and the Type 97 Te-Ke.

 

The Type 92 Jyu-Sokosha was proved well performing in hard terrain such as china and manchuria where it saw most of his active service. the Type 92 was produced at over 150 vehicles and saw action in a all the Sino-Japanese conflict between 1932 and 1945. the type 92 was poorly armored at a point that even a simple rifle could at a short distance, penetrate his armor from the side or the rear. however the speed of the Jyu-Sokosha was reaching 40km/h.

 

 

Early Type 92

Spoiler

800px-Type_92_heavy_armoured_car_01.jpg

 

while been a nice vehicles, the early version is unfit for the game because of is insufficient fire power who is only provided by two type 91 6.5mm. this armament can maybe penetrate some enemy tank at a very short distance but will not be a serious treat and will be ridiculously frustrating to try. but i wanted to mention this variant anyway.

 

Mid Type 92

Spoiler

c747740d387e9af2b4d275a06bdf8d29.jpg

 

The Mid production of the Type 92 Jyu-Sokosha is the first that is fit for the game.it was actually a up-gunned early production armed with a newly produced type 92 13.2mm MG in place of the hull MG. the type 92 MG was actually a Hotchkiss 13.2mm model 1930 produced in Japan. the hull machine-gun was now providing a good anti-aircraft capacity with a good elevation and at the same time, a decen anti-tank capacity if used against lightly armored tank (such as most tank of Tier 1), the rest of the tank was remained unchanged

 

Late Type 92

Spoiler

1410255318_tip-92-na-tanke.jpg

 

The late production saw a lot of major change in the vehicles. the turret MG was upgraded to a Type 96 7.7mm and the rear of the turret was often having an additional LMG to allow a better anti-aircraft capacity. the road-wheel and the suspension was also up-graded to make the tank more reliable when turning in high speed (before it had a tendency to lose his track on the tight and fast turn). as an additional visual change, it also had new redesigned portholes and vision slits with different swing.

 


The Type 92 13.2mm MG and Type 98 20mm cannon

Spoiler

the type 92 Jyu-Sokosha i suggest to the game are armed with 2 different gun in the hull with different capacity. the first is the type 92 13.mm AKA Hotchkiss 13.2mm Mle 1930

3164zy9.jpg

 

the Hotchkiss 13.2mm was an AA gun with a decent penetration for the game allowing the player to penetrate an enemy tank just as easy as a larger gun. the rate of fire and the capacity of his magazine will greatly overcome the lack of post penetration damage and can make you a real treat for any enemy. the Hotchkiss could fire AP round that could penetrate 22mm at 100m and APCR round that could penetrate up to 36mm at 100m. while the first shell is a bit weak for a frontal assault on some tank, the second is good enough to take out any low tier tank from any direction.

 

4086694.JPG

 

The Type 98 20mm AA gun is well know from any Japanese ground force player and even those who just play any other nation in tanks battle. the type 98 is the main Japanese AA armament in the game used in 3 different vehicles in the game and can be found in battle until the mid tier. the Type 98, while been a larger caliber of the Type 92, wasn't really bigger. it could in general fit where the 13.2mm could fit. the Type 92 Jyu-Sokosha was successfully fitting the type 98 cannon at least once as an experimental upgrade. the new armament was a last tentative to make the Type 92 Jyu-Sokosha a good support vehicles and extend for the last time his utility in the Japanese services but the newer light tank and tankette was just better in armor and armament while been at lest just as maneuverable and the 20mm upgrade was never widely spread. 

 

 

 

lt_type92_s1.jpg

Specifications
Weight 3.5 tonnes (3.9 tons)
Length 3.95 m (13 ft 0 in)
Width 1.63 m (5 ft 4 in)
Height 1.86 m (6 ft 1 in)
Crew 3

Armor 6–12 mm
Main
armament
13 mm Type 92 Heavy MG
Secondary
armament

1 x 6.5 mm Type 91 MG (early)

1 × 7.7 mm Type 97 MG (late)

 
Engine Franklin/Ishikawajima Sumida C6 air-cooled inline 6-cylinder gasoline
45 hp (34 kW)
Suspension

Torsion bar (early)

Bell crank (late)

Operational
range
200 km (120 mi)
Speed 40 km/h (25 mph)

 

 

Source

Book : Japanese Armor Vol. 1 (2002)

Book : La second guerre mondial Vol 13, L'expension Japanaise dans le Pacifiques (2007)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_92_Heavy_Armoured_Car

http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/3-Japan/06-Tankettes/Type92/File/Type92.htm

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/japan/Type_92_Jyu-Sokosha_tankette.php

https://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=551

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_type_92_cavalry_tank.html

http://fhsw.wikia.com/wiki/Type_92_Jyu-Sokosha

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Gun/France

http://www.ww2f.com/threads/french-tank-guns-in-world-war-ii.63716/

 

other low rank Japanese tank (Rank Zero)

 

Edited by CaID
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4 minutes ago, SAUBER_KH7 said:

Open for Discussion.:salute:

too fast again. :DD

Edited by CaID
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Yeesss, a Japanese low tier autocannon, like Pz.II and T-60, Gib plz!!

 

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This seems like it'd be a neat little reserve tank, though both the 7.7 and 6.5 turret machine guns seem like they'd be useless against all but trucks or exposed crew. The 13.2mm machine gun at the very least has pretty good penetration with 36 - for reference, the similarly-armed M2A2 has 28mm of penetration with it's Browning, though the M2A2 still has two of them, both of which has turrets.

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could work as a 1.0 td.

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7 hours ago, Tasty95215 said:

This seems like it'd be a neat little reserve tank, though both the 7.7 and 6.5 turret machine guns seem like they'd be useless against all but trucks or exposed crew. The 13.2mm machine gun at the very least has pretty good penetration with 36 - for reference, the similarly-armed M2A2 has 28mm of penetration with it's Browning, though the M2A2 still has two of them, both of which has turrets.

nope. the M2A2 have only one of them, the 2nd turret is armed with a 7.62mm M1919, only the left turret have the .50 and the right turret is reducing a lot the capacity of aiming at the right with the real gun.

 

3 hours ago, blockhaj said:

could work as a 1.0 td.

strangely, the Type 92 was used as cavalry tank and reconnaissance but the hull gun was up-graded to a 13.2mm for his anti-aircraft capacity with an good elevation, i dont know what is exactly his elevation but it seem to be around 45 degree. it could also work in the AA line before the Type 98.

Edited by CaID
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On 31/10/2017 at 11:01, CaID said:

The Type 98 20mm AA gun is well know from any Japanese ground force player and even those who just play any other nation in tanks battle. the type 98 is the main Japanese AA armament in the game used in 3 different vehicles in the game and can be found in battle until the mid tier. the Type 98, while been a larger caliber of the Type 92, wasn't really bigger. it could in general fit where the 13.2mm could fit. the Type 92 Jyu-Sokosha was successfully fitting the type 98 cannon at least once as an experimental upgrade. the new armament was a last tentative to make the Type 92 Jyu-Sokosha a good support vehicles and extend for the last time his utility in the Japanese services but the newer light tank and tankette was just better in armor and armament while been at lest just as maneuverable and the 20mm upgrade was never widely spread. 

This is very strange.

I think Type 92 Heavy Armored Car did not equip 20mm cannon by two reasons.

 

First, this vehicle is Cavalry Tank for pursue enemy infantry with trucks.

For example, in Operation Nekka / Defense of the Great Wall, Kawahara corps (Japanese first mechanized infantry) use this armored car. They pursue Chinese Artillery 101st corps 1st battalion over 140 km with two Type 92, one Kurogane, and one truck and they get large results.

13.2mm machine gun or 6.5mm machine gun is suite for that objective, but 20mm cannon is worse: row ROF, not enough HE power etc.

 

Second, "equip 20mm cannon" will be mistranslation.

Some Japanese documents says below: 

In 1933, IJA Engineering Division says "13mm auto-cannon is not enough power for anti-air/anti armored vehicle", and they say this is why rush the development of 20mm auto-cannon.

I think some English or other writer miss-understand these sentence.

 

But, we have alternative one.

Some Type 92 heavy armored car Early models equip 37mm cannon.

Quote

 

about 37mm cannon sources

http://combat1.sakura.ne.jp/92SHIK-S.htm

Tomio Hara, 1961, "Japanese Tanks and Fighting Vehicles"

 

Spoiler

ry1gPAe.jpg

Photo from Japanese Tanks and Armored Vehicles (日本の戦車) 1971, page 115

 

EDIT: This tank caption is "Type 92 Heavy Armored Car (Early Production)"

In that time Japanese don't have 20mm cannon.

 

 

 

Edited by aizenns
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1 hour ago, aizenns said:
  Hide contents

ry1gPAe.jpg

Photo from Japanese Tanks and Armored Vehicles (日本の戦車) 1971, page 115

 

 

that barrel is way to slim to be a 37mm. it seem to be a 20mm Type 98. especially with the collar and the muzzle break. but could also be the 13.2mm with the light we can mistaken the gun's feature.

Edited by CaID
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21 minutes ago, CaID said:

that barrel is way to slim to be a 37mm. it seem to be a 20mm Type 98. especially with the collar and the muzzle break. but could also be the 13.2mm with the light we can mistaken the gun's feature.

Some people says this is 37mm, but it seems 13.2mm.

20mm cannon is more big. 

 

 

Quote

 

AT_rifle_Type_97_1.JPG

Type 97 AT 20mm

Quote

800px-Type_98_Japanese_20_mm_anti-aircra

Type 98 AA 20mm

Quote

 

arm001.jpg

Type 94 TG 37mm

 

Quote

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=1131&d=11915

Type 92 MG 13.2mm

 

 

Edited by aizenns

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3 minutes ago, aizenns said:

Some people says this is 37mm, but it seems 13.2mm.

20mm cannon is more big.

it's thick enough to be the Type 98 but may be not long enough. they may have shortened it to make the gun have a better balance and allow a faster elevation.

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12 minutes ago, CaID said:

it's thick enough to be the Type 98 but may be not long enough. they may have shortened it to make the gun have a better balance and allow a faster elevation.

Japanese Armored Vehicles and Fighting Vehicles (日本の戦車) 1961 by Tomio Hara and Akira Takeuchi

According to this book, this photo is 37mm cannon or camouflage Barrel

 

Perhaps photo that I attach perhaps post equip camouflage Barrel on 6.5mm machine gun.

tXoVsRN.png

hXKgYcV.jpg

Edited by aizenns
fix miss English: bullet→Barrel
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In Japanese weapon researcher Kunimoto Yasufumi's collection there are blueprint of Type 92 heavy armoured car (13.2mm machine gun)

http://www.warbirds.jp/kunimoto/type51/92index.htm

92Jso0056.JPG

92Jso0055.JPG

92Js00571.JPG92Js00581.JPG

 

 

 

 

Edited by aizenns
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I try to verify that is it able to equip 20mm Type 98 on Type 92 heavy armoured car.

It seems it is impossible to equip it.

 

Blue is "Type 92 vehicle mounted 13mm machine gun" (barrel length: 1,000 mm)

Red is "Type 98 20 mm AA cannon" (barrel length: 1,400 mm)

XgXT1hE.png

QRxnruf.png

5eU0MIh.png

 

edit: 

in this image, bottom side of 20mm machine gun chamber seems strange because I write this from Type 98 on AA cradle.

I measure these barrel and vehicle length in GIMP

Edited by aizenns
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5 hours ago, aizenns said:

I try to verify that is it able to equip 20mm Type 98 on Type 92 heavy armoured car.

It seems it is impossible to equip it.

 

Blue is "Type 92 vehicle mounted 13mm machine gun" (barrel length: 1,000 mm)

Red is "Type 98 20 mm AA cannon" (barrel length: 1,400 mm)

XgXT1hE.png

QRxnruf.png

5eU0MIh.png

 

edit: 

in this image, bottom side of 20mm machine gun chamber seems strange because I write this from Type 98 on AA cradle.

I measure these barrel and vehicle length in GIMP

to be honest, that is not your best research. the type 98 was also able to carry 5 rounds magazine and the shoulder rest could be removed and or folded. this seem to be the naval version of the shoulder rest. try again without the 20 rounds mag and shoulder rest. you will notice it become quit possible.

 

atr_t97.jpgJapanese_Type_98_20_mm_Anti-aircraft_gun23895778949_727618fcdd_b.jpg

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18 hours ago, CaID said:

to be honest, that is not your best research. the type 98 was also able to carry 5 rounds magazine and the shoulder rest could be removed and or folded. this seem to be the naval version of the shoulder rest. try again without the 20 rounds mag and shoulder rest. you will notice it become quit possible.

 

atr_t97.jpgJapanese_Type_98_20_mm_Anti-aircraft_gun23895778949_727618fcdd_b.jpg

Why?

If remove pad and use small magazine, it seems too big.

 

Also, they don’t have any reason to equip this. They need high rpm machine gun because this vehicle is to fight Chinese.

 

Also, this Type 98 20mm gun image from Army, blueprint 

 

edit; Navy didn't use Type 98 20mm. They use Type 96 25mm.

Edited by aizenns

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30 minutes ago, aizenns said:

 

 atr_t97.jpg

I think this is Type 97, 20mm AT rifle.

It have small magazine (7 bullets), and it able to use for anti-ground.

Type 98, 20mm cannnot use for anti-ground by infantry to fight armored vehicles.

 

Type 97, 20mm AT is produced only 1200 because this gun is very high-costs. 

So only elite infantry units in Manchuria and airborne equip this.

Off course they don’t have cavalry tanks, so it is impossible to equip.

Edited by aizenns
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In War Thunder, we can observe because the Ki-49 is equipped with 20 mm Type 97 anti-tank rifle.:D

lCnaVNs.jpg

 

Historically, the Ki-49 was equipped with 20 mm Ho-1 flexible cannon.

leTC59a.jpg

 

Catalog Of Enemy Ordnance Materiel

https://archive.org/stream/CatalogOfEnemyOrdnanceMateriel#page/n187

 

Because a bug report has been submitted it will be impossible to see the 20 mm Type 97 anti-tank rifle in the game in the near future...

 

 

Type 92 Heavy Armored Car is welcome.

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15 hours ago, aizenns said:

Why?

If remove pad and use small magazine, it seems too big.

 

Also, they don’t have any reason to equip this. They need high rpm machine gun because this vehicle is to fight Chinese.

 

Also, this Type 98 20mm gun image from Army, blueprint 

 

edit; Navy didn't use Type 98 20mm. They use Type 96 25mm.

as it was explained. the 20mm was added to improve the anti-tank capacity of the Type 92 in the hope to keep the tank into production and service. against the tank, they mostly need a better penetration rather than a higher fire-rate or magazine. so there is no reason to keep the 20 rounds magazine. they are likely to fit it with a 5 rounds magazine to make the gun fit. the shoulder rest is also likely to be remove as the gun is attached to the tank's structure and no need to press the shoulder to it. when a tank receive a new gun, the gun and the tank is likely to receive some minor modification, such MG mount. if the gun was mounted, i agree it was a bit bigger but not unfit. it probably reduced the transverse and elevation but if it was meant to simply provide additional firepower against the ground target, it didn't need much elevation or transverse

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