Current Team Killing Policy

[DocProfit 2,649]

People are frustrated with the changes (big maps and 16 vs 16).

 

Like in real life, they are most likely to take out that frustration on those closest to them.

[przybysz86 10,309]

to not duplicate everything that was already said:

TL/DR - LOT of air kills in missile tiers are TKs.

Sometimes around 50% of all planes shot down by players are TKs.
I personally had many days when I died to TK more than to enemy and I had multiple days where I only died to TKs

Problem is not with any one player but systematic.
Current system is apparently not punishing enough to deter people from TKing and on top of that it punish victims.

In SB we earn in time-based fashion and we pay for spawn up front. This means that when we get TKd not only we lose our expensive plane but we also lose earning potential for actions we've already performed.

Fact that tons of new top tier premiums are available to everyone with fat enough wallet does not help.
When you see 15TKs in one game - that's just not right. And it's not exception but often a rule.

 

As a bare minimum, in my opinion, victim should get compensated for his teammate's mistake on top of penalty to one who TKd

Edited March 30 by przybysz86

[Von_Luck 25]

I'm getting killed on take off, that's not a mistake.

[kopli999 1]

There is also the problem of people teamkilling in helicopter PVE and ground arcade PVE by just hitting your rotor with their helicopter, they dont get punished at all because it counts as if you crashed
this should be either disabled or count as TK
then there are people like these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maiHdZ2Aud0

not only they dont get punished because its "crash" their victims count as teamkillers sometimes because game decides that victim is at fault
and there is nothing the current system can do to stop them, before they get banned it will take months and then they just create a new account and continue ramming people

Edited March 13 by kopli999

[_______ABY______ 1]

This player   .DZeal.Masanori2931  shot me down while landing, I don't know why. And that's why I demand exemplary punishment for that player. It's just a game, but if anyone has nerves, let them learn to control themselves. Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 20 by _______ABY______

[taarnah 2]

it would be great if the autoban worked for these negative IQ players ...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAAOtUc03cI

Edited March 20 by taarnah

[LucyFerr 0]

Where can I be reported for killing a teammate? Such people have nothing to gain in the game!

2023.03.21 18.06.02 ficuscat teamkiller.wrpl

[_______ABY______ 1]

20 hours ago, taarnah said:

bolo by skvelé, keby autoban fungoval pre týchto hráčov s negatívnym IQ ...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAAOtUc03cI

I call such brainless people

[Xx8xX 165]

1.Go to replay of the battle

2.Click on name of your TK person

3.Click Report -Complain

5.Write your message and time in battle you get TK ......

Edited March 21 by Xx8xX

[LucyFerr 0]

Thanks for the information!

 

[Uncle J [email protected] 367]

 

On 21/03/2023 at 19:03, LucyFerr said:

Thanks for the information!

 

On 21/03/2023 at 19:05, x1BRAVO9x said:

On 21/03/2023 at 18:52, Xx8xX said:

1.Go to replay of the battle

2.Click on name of your TK person

3.Click Report -Complain

5.Write your message and time in battle you get TK ......

 

 

I'm not sure its doing any good....

 

Yes, you are right, the advice looks like created with good intentions, but: Manually reports of teamkills are just a waste of time:

 

According to gaijin they track damage inflicted to friendlies separately, have an autoban system in place and reporting of "clean " teamkills will not lead to any actions by game masters in order to allow the automatic ban systems to work.

 

Reporting via server replay makes sense for "rammers" and guys too stupid for a teamkill, so if they mess it up and i am able to outturn them, i kill them and report them for a TK attempt/unsportsmanship behavior. Still happy to pay the fee and worth it to remove this scum out of the match. The major disadvantage is (i fly props only) that it takes time and you need a repair - bringing you in serious trouble as you were unable to climb in this time and you have a major positioning disadvantage especially on very small maps.

 

 

[druidh58 652]

9 hours ago, x1BRAVO9x said:

Serious question Gaijin.

 

Why do you allow this destructive, counterproductive, and extremely malicious behavior continue?

Because it all adds to the grind. Team Killing at the airfield would be easy to code out. That it hasn't been done after all these years and complaints tells you all you need to know. 

[syndrome23 7,096]

Please stop posting videos and screenshots here. This is not the place for reporting. 

[NeutroNShivA 36]

On topic of teamkilling, any idea why I got punished for some guy ramming into me from underneath me? Is this working as intended, in order to prolong the grind? Or is there a way to get back the money I lost? Is there some place to post log to, so it can get reviewed and refund money?

[Uncle J [email protected] 367]

On 30/03/2023 at 21:54, syndrome23 said:

Please stop posting videos and screenshots here. This is not the place for reporting. 

 

As i saw you have deleted multiple posts and added the above mentioned comment:

 

1. Imho the deleted posts were posted to show that the current automated team killing/ban process has major flaws

2. The overall reason to have this thread is pinned is that multiple players are affected by teamkilling for several years now

3. The deleted posts with videos were not aimed to report (useless anyway according to game masters) or to blame others

4. In case there were aimed to humiliate team killers in public, i would have reported them by myself

5. To complain in the forum about not working game mechanics is allowed, daily business and covered by Freedom of Speech and forum rules

6. Imho the deleted posts were not offensive, they were more or less a cry for help and aimed at gaijin to fix the problem

 

Before you answer to my post by adding waning points with referring to "deliberate challenging" a mod or something like that, i kindly ask you to check the "squad name / stasi" thread from 2 days ago. It shows in a very good way how much more complicated topics and exchanges with mods or even Stona himself were handled in a cool and professional way.

 

It would have been easy for them to close this discussion with various reasons (political discussion, challenging gaijin staff) and delete a lot of posts due to the same reasons. But, nothing happened because both sides (gaijin and players) assessed the topic as important, so they continued the discussions without any administrative punishment or warning points.

 

So i kindly ask you to see this as a feedback (works both ways) and not a challenge. Thx in advance and have a good one!

 

[Uncle J [email protected] 367]

On 02/04/2023 at 19:04, kapitantan said:

Un saludo para todos.

 

Hola amigo! 

 

If the translator worked correct, you are concerned about 2 things:

 

A) an automated message generated by gaijin "10 players or more" have complained...

B) You shot down friendlies not on purpose, but you teamkilled and got teamkilled

 

First of all i recommend you to translate your post into English as this is the official forum language.

 

Second - ignore these automated warnings. They are just a sign that more than 10 people have complained. You get bans or punishment after game masters have investigated those accusations; if something was wrong you get a punishment, if not there can be hundreds of complains, they are most likely "invented" issues or complains about frustration like you killed somebody or that they were not fast enough to catch you. Some guys are just abusing the report function out of frustration or as they have nothing better to do.

 

I have this from time to time too, when i am alone 1 vs 7 but i somehow managed to survive by speed, alt or pure luck - and my dead team killed so many tickets that they had just no chance to catch me before a ticket win - as they were too low, slow or just not smart enough to avoid ticket defeats. Even without using the chat in such matches i receive this automated messages accusing me of insulting, foul language, teamkilling - everything you can imagine. Never got any punishment if they were not valid.

 

Your own experiences with teamkilling on both ends are different. Imho the main reason why this thread still exists is that some guys doing this on purpose, multiple times and the measures of gaijin in order to prevent this are just not adequate enough to ban such players quick and permanently. So as long as this happens this thread will exist.

 

I just recommend to check your six every time you fly, watch for suspicious looking friendlies closing in fast despite no enemy is near and be more careful when shooting on other planes, if 2 are on an enemy there is no need for a 3rd and breaking off if too many friendlies are around you. Choosing an airspawn prop minimizes collisions during take off and taking off to the side or as last plane helps to avoid getting teamkilled.

 

As i fly props only and fly mainly bombers i am less affected but from time to time i get attacked by such guys when flying airfield spawn planes. Usually i see this coming (or just anticipate this due to the fight path) and i outturn them and shoot them down. After the match i use the server replay, report those guys for a teamkill attempt and admit that i killed those guys in self defense. Happens quite seldom, but i never received any punishments for that. Ofc i got no reimbursement for the team kill fee, but idc about SLs.

 

Have a good one!

 

Edited April 4 by Uncle J [email protected]

[kapitantan 1]

 

Ok, I'm worried about a possible punishment for false accusation.
I only once purposefully knocked down an ally who was trying to knock down another ally, and for a while I was afraid of punishment...
thank you!!!

[[email protected] 16]

How does it work exactly with the teamkilling? Because I play Ground RB, and you cannot damage your own allies vehicles, but we can damage or kill our teammates air vehicles. Like we can lock onto and shoot a jet or a drone with a stinger etc. 

 

If we cannot harm allie tanks or vehicles with our ground vehicles, why not make it where we also cannot lock onto allie air vehicles as well? To try to minimize the team kill? I've mistakenly shot down my teams' drone or even a helicopter the other day, because actually it did not have the blue teammate color and identification above it, they actually were unlabeled completely so I assumed it was the enemy. Had to apologize afterwards. Maybe that was just a glitch. But the fact is that we can shoot down our allie air vehicles but not shoot the ground vehicles. Why is that? Is it to make it realistic as far as having to be careful what to lock onto before shooting? 

[Ace_Tridax 77]

Here's a fix that would solve the issue once and for all, they should just make it so if a player teamkills another they not only get the SL penalty for the teamkill but are marked for a short duration so other players can teamkill the teamkiller without punishment and if it was an accident then players will go about their business as usual and the teamkiller can still get the penalty, problem solved. most teamkillers teamkill pretty much on the first few seconds of a match as everyone's taking off and their reasons very wildly some even try to kill the teamkillers to save the team as they tend to try and teamkill more than one, the current system is far too flawed my proposed system would fix it as it would mean they can be dealt with far faster than the system can do.

 

Had a match where five of us were in a massive Disney seagull (MIIIINE!) rush for one guy and plenty of over spray was done as everyone was diving and weaving through each others shot trying to down this one dude, one guy crashed and it instantly ejected two of us from the match for accidently shooting him because it marked it as a teamkill, literally the moment he died we got removed for the teamkill INSTANTLY. Clearly this system doesn't work when I see others do it and still keep going on the match so what made this time so special?

[Ace_Tridax 77]

4 hours ago, [email protected] said:

How does it work exactly with the teamkilling? Because I play Ground RB, and you cannot damage your own allies vehicles, but we can damage or kill our teammates air vehicles. Like we can lock onto and shoot a jet or a drone with a stinger etc. 

 

In Ground battles you cant damage friendly tanks unless your in sim but for ground AB and RB you can be teamkilled with rockets and bombs always watch out when bombing the point might accidently do that I. Did it once because I was bombing an enemy and his name plate was masking the allies so I didn't even see him, they were literally wall to wall to each other so ya that's nice.

[Uncle J [email protected] 367]

3 hours ago, Ace_Tridax said:

Here's a fix that would solve the issue once and for all, they should just make it so if a player teamkills another they not only get the SL penalty for the teamkill but are marked for a short duration so other players can teamkill the teamkiller without punishment and if it was an accident then players will go about their business as usual and the teamkiller can still get the penalty, problem solved.

 

You imply with your proposal the right of self-justice and the ability of players to distinguish between intended and not intended teamkills. You have the right for self defense and to a certain degree also for self justice already. The only difference to your proposal is the rejection of a team killer fee for a certain time.

 

Imho this solves nothing as the teamkiller has usually no intention to survive and due to watching a hell of replays the identification of an intended teamkill is not as easy as it looks. Even the battle log is not telling the truth. So if somebody ramms you intentionally and dies due to a broken prop you will be marked as teamkiller even without firing a single shot. If you somehow manage to rtb (with luck and flaps) as you survived the ramming attack you would be easy prey for other players trying to punish you for doing nothing.

 

Imho no solution.

 

 

3 hours ago, Ace_Tridax said:

Had a match where five of us were in a massive Disney seagull (MIIIINE!) rush for one guy and plenty of over spray was done as everyone was diving and weaving through each others shot trying to down this one dude, one guy crashed and it instantly ejected two of us from the match for accidently shooting him because it marked it as a teamkill, literally the moment he died we got removed for the teamkill INSTANTLY. Clearly this system doesn't work when I see others do it and still keep going on the match so what made this time so special?

 

Without providing a replay it is hard to assess your scenario. But also based on watching replays there are 2 reasons for instant removals from the match:

 

A) killing more than one friendly

B) producing heavy (critical) damage to a friendly more than once (so crits and some hits) forcing him to crash - leading to the final teamkill 

 

So in other words for variant B) it is very likely that the reckless shooting of you and and your other mate produced both severe damage above a certain threshold kicking you out after your teamkill victim crashed. Very rare but happened to me too as i tried to kill a guy who was too stupid to teamkill me, so i was able to get behind him but just scored a hell of hits and i got removed when he finally crashed.

 

So without giving any advice to do so - if you are forced to defend against a teamkiller your aim should be to score a few but severe hits and kill him in the air and not allow him to crash. Crashes and friendly damage are somehow connected, but it is so rare that i am not able to tell how.

 

 

[x1BRAVO9x 188]

5 hours ago, Ace_Tridax said:

Here's a fix that would solve the issue once and for all, they should just make it so if a player teamkills another they not only get the SL penalty for the teamkill but are marked for a short duration so other players can teamkill the teamkiller without punishment and if it was an accident then players will go about their business as usual and the teamkiller can still get the penalty, problem solved. most teamkillers teamkill pretty much on the first few seconds of a match as everyone's taking off and their reasons very wildly some even try to kill the teamkillers to save the team as they tend to try and teamkill more than one, the current system is far too flawed my proposed system would fix it as it would mean they can be dealt with far faster than the system can do.

 

Had a match where five of us were in a massive Disney seagull (MIIIINE!) rush for one guy and plenty of over spray was done as everyone was diving and weaving through each others shot trying to down this one dude, one guy crashed and it instantly ejected two of us from the match for accidently shooting him because it marked it as a teamkill, literally the moment he died we got removed for the teamkill INSTANTLY. Clearly this system doesn't work when I see others do it and still keep going on the match so what made this time so special?

 

52 minutes ago, Uncle J [email protected] said:

 

You imply with your proposal the right of self-justice and the ability of players to distinguish between intended and not intended teamkills. You have the right for self defense and to a certain degree also for self justice already. The only difference to your proposal is the rejection of a team killer fee for a certain time.

 

Imho this solves nothing as the teamkiller has usually no intention to survive and due to watching a hell of replays the identification of an intended teamkill is not as easy as it looks. Even the battle log is not telling the truth. So if somebody ramms you intentionally and dies due to a broken prop you will be marked as teamkiller even without firing a single shot. If you somehow manage to rtb (with luck and flaps) as you survived the ramming attack you would be easy prey for other players trying to punish you for doing nothing.

 

Imho no solution.

 

 

I tend to agree with Uncle J.

 

No offense to Ace but I think it is an absolutely horrible idea.

 

The idea to solve team killing is to allow team killing? Come on............

 

For starters no one in this forum is more passionate about team killing or harder on team killers than me but giving the discretion to decide what is malicious team killing and what isn't to players is a recipe for disaster. That does nothing more than give team killers a free pass to kill anyone they deem worthy of being team killed.

 

As Uncle J mentions the average malicious team killer has no intention or care to finish the match so team killing him isn't punishment at all. All it does is give other players the idea that it is okay to team kill. I've been team killed for stealing bases and stealing kills although I make a point to do neither.

 

I'm really not a ground pounder, and very, very seldom do I ever carry any ground ordinance but once when I did I was neck and neck with a guy in a plane with a similar speed. There were two bases extremely close together and he had called the one nearest. I had every intention of letting him have the base he called, although I was slightly ahead of him. But about 2/3 of the way to the base he broke off his path to engage a bot. Once he did this I assumed he gave up the base and I bombed it. He shot me down and was very "matter of fact" about why he did. He said that he was extremely justified in shooting me down because I bombed a base he called. To be truthful, I was amazed at how self-assured he was in his justification top TK me. Those are the idiots I don't want deciding who can be legitimately team killed.

[Uncle J [email protected] 367]

5 hours ago, x1BRAVO9x said:

He shot me down and was very "matter of fact" about why he did. He said that he was extremely justified in shooting me down because I bombed a base he called. To be truthful, I was amazed at how self-assured he was in his justification top TK me. Those are the idiots I don't want deciding who can be legitimately team killed.

 

As i do not have any motivations to play low i see such incidents every week (from 5 km above), especially Wyvern pilots have this habit  to kill friendlies short before their teammate drops. Based on your description i assume that this was not his first time and he assumes base markings are more than just a declaration of intentions - they were part of bomber pilot codex some years ago, but those days are long gone. Base killing fighters ruined (besides other factors) bomber gameplay, and we should think about a significant increase of teamkill fees for such guys, at least 5 times  more for teamkillers  in tech tree planes and 10 times more for premiums... 

 

Disclaimer: Increase of tk fees after this ramming issue is fixed, not before...

Edited April 5 by Uncle J [email protected]

[Ace_Tridax 77]

9 hours ago, Uncle J [email protected] said:

You imply with your proposal the right of self-justice and the ability of players to distinguish between intended and not intended teamkills. You have the right for self defense and to a certain degree also for self justice already. The only difference to your proposal is the rejection of a team killer fee for a certain time.

 

Imho this solves nothing as the teamkiller has usually no intention to survive and due to watching a hell of replays the identification of an intended teamkill is not as easy as it looks. Even the battle log is not telling the truth. So if somebody ramms you intentionally and dies due to a broken prop you will be marked as teamkiller even without firing a single shot. If you somehow manage to rtb (with luck and flaps) as you survived the ramming attack you would be easy prey for other players trying to punish you for doing nothing.

 

Imho no solution.

 

Actually it would solve the issue as in most cases players can distinguish between actual teamkills and accidental ones, my proposed idea would simply just give the responsibility to the players as the system doesn't stop teamkillers from teamkilling but in most cases we do. Some players will take matters into their own hands but most wont due to the SL penalty thanks to the games real world economy they have implemented through the years, yes most teamkillers don't care if they get shot in the back in fact some even laugh about it like its some kind of badge of honor but if the players were able to freely remove the issue as it crops up rather than let it fester and get worse which it has through the years then that's a solution. True identifying them is sometimes hard if your not paying attention but they would simply need to make it so they get marked so everyone can see them and know what happened, something like a new color to their name plate or a symbol accompanying it.

I have been apart of many matches where there was a teamkiller and it got put down for it by another player and we still won the match simply because someone took the bullet for the team and ended the threat, most don't do that and are very passive towards it until they get shot down then they whine about it, most don't take matters into their own hands because Gaijin touts doing this results in bans though I have watched teamkillers roam freely for months if not years continuously teamkilling and not get penalized for it so obviously the current system doesn't work. teamkillers are sadly an inevitable issue for multiplayer games the solution I propose is not new and is in other games that dealt with the same issue and it works for them, seeing the community it would work for War Thunder too they just need to reprogram everyone so they know teamkillers are fair game free of penalty.

 

For the rammers that's an easy fix as ramming is mostly in air AB as it is the only method of teamkilling in that mode ninety percent of teamkillers in air RB just try to shoot you down, the simple fix is allied players simply faze through each other like on the runway, that way if you get into a head on with an enemy player you die (or not if you get gaijined) but if it's an ally trying it then they just pass through you.

[Uncle J [email protected] 367]

2 hours ago, Ace_Tridax said:

Actually it would solve the issue as in most cases players can distinguish between actual teamkills and accidental ones, my proposed idea would simply just give the responsibility to the players as the system doesn't stop teamkillers from teamkilling but in most cases we do.

 

I respect your pov - but as already stated i see more risks than benefits.

 

A guy teamkilling just for fun or out of frustration or whatever can kill max 2 planes - before the auto -kickout. To mark them as a target (why not giving a bonus for killing a teamkiller?) would encourage even more players than today to sacrifice early game positioning (decisive factor in prop BRs) and dive back to the deck for justice, so indirectly this would further increase the negative impact on the team performance and is therefore (at least from an holistic pov) not really suited to solve the issue as the tk impact gets even bigger. This might be different for jets/top tier but it would still require some experienced players fully aware of what happened and able to come to the right conclusions.

 

Tbh i appreciate your trust in mature and experienced teammates, but my daily experiences around BR 4-5.0 in Air RB prove daily that those players are very rare. I mean this thread exists for ages now, there was time enough to implement adequate technical stuff to solve the issue. So seeing this still active shows just 2 possibilities:

 

A) a technical solution is either too complex or expensive

B) gaijin sees no priority in this and/or their developers are busy 

 

So asking for a technical solution like in your case - a technical solution to solve an issue that could have been fixed with a technical solution ages ago and transferring core duties of game designers (here fair play) to players looks highly unlikely.