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LittleJohn Adapter for the Tetrach and Daimler


Little john  

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  1. 1. Should this modification should be added to the game?

    • Yes
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    • No
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    • dont know.
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i would like to suggest an little addition in the modification of the vehicles in game. the Tetrach and the Daimler are missing an little modification that was really important in the history to keep the vehicles and his gun, still suitable to fight the heavier armored tanks of the WW2.

The LittleJohn adapter.

Littlejohn_Adaptor_Bovington.jpg

 

While already been suggested in the past, the Little John adapter would be an important addition in the game for the few vehicles that actually fit it in the history. amount of those vehicles was the Tetrach and the Daimler who are in game, the adapter was simply a accessory that was screw in the end of the barrel as muzzle and his purpose was to squeeze the shell to reduce their size and increase their speed to get and higher penetration. the shell used was an armor-piercing composite non-rigid with a tungsten core. while not making an impressive after penetration damage, the shell was able to break through the armor of a tiger 1 at a decent range (around 500m if they are at around 90 degree)

5a2e3aad97ce.jpg

 

Jrnd0tS.jpg

this chart is probably at 30 degree

 

In game the Little John would be suitable as a simple modification that can be research in the vehicles. the modification should be at the 3rd row to allow an additional research for the different shell. when you put the modification, the gun cannot shot the regular shell anymore, only the Special shell. the required system wouldn't be any different than those plane you change the gun like you change the bomb. the shell will do less post penetration damage than the regular shell used in the gun but will do a lot more penetration as you can see in the chart, the modification can be more suitable against heavier and higher tier tanks rather than low tier. the shell will also reach a lot faster speed making it able to hit precisely a target at a longer distance while also breaking the armor of well armored tanks such as the tiger 1. for all those reason, along with the additional modification, those 2 vehicles should also have a increased BR to suite more their new capacity (2.0 to 3.0)

 

An light tank Tetrach with the little john adapter

Tanks_and_Afvs_of_the_British_Army_1939-

 

a Daimler Mk 1 with a little john (everything indicate the Mk.2 was also fitting the little john)

c6ca53ec876a30ec3dbb9973081ae3a2.jpg

 

 

In theory, any 2pdr gun could fit a little john but in practical, many vehicles was retired when the need of the little john was necessary. for the need of keeping a balance between the nation in game, i recommend to only add the little john on the vehicles than can be proven to have fitted the little john. the little john could also be fitter on other gun, including on aircraft's 40mm and 37mm M6 gun. but the little john was mostly used on the 2pdr gun on the British tanks.

 

Penetration chart. Thanks to Whelmy

Spoiler

21mASVG.jpg

eRmObox.jpg

MiLMQH0.jpg

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littlejohn_adaptor

http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/sgun.htm

 

Edited by CaID
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Open for discussion. :salute:

 

For future reference, please try to refrain from using Wikipedia as a source because it is known for not always being reliable. A small tip would be to check the sources used in the Wikipedia to find where they got the information from. 

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5 minutes ago, CherryBlossom said:

Open for discussion. :salute:

 

For future reference, please try to refrain from using Wikipedia as a source because it is known for not always being reliable. A small tip would be to check the sources used in the Wikipedia to find where they got the information from. 

along side i have not and reference in hand for those who challenge me but they are not always allow to show publicly. i am one of those who update Wikipedia and believe me when i set Wikipedia as a source, i checked his source too and have other.

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I agree wholly with this suggestion not only for the two vehicles mentioned but for the Matilda Mk II and the Churchill Mk I ,as there guns are drastically underpowered for the tiers they see they have armour for 3.0 - 3.3 but gun penetration for at the most 2.3-27 :salute:

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3 hours ago, Brumpoet said:

I agree wholly with this suggestion not only for the two vehicles mentioned but for the Matilda Mk II and the Churchill Mk I ,as there guns are drastically underpowered for the tiers they see they have armour for 3.0 - 3.3 but gun penetration for at the most 2.3-27 :salute:

to be honest, i had fun playing those tanks when i was trying to upgrade them with all the modification like i do for every single tanks. with a decent angling and on a higher point, the Matilda can tank a lot of hit without giving up. i over come 4 tanks together, while alone with a Matilda pretty much in the open but i menage to take them all out just because i had the high ground and the right angling.

 

But to add the Little John to them, i think they indeed have it at some point but i couldn't find decent record to prove it. for the A13 and Crusader, i think those tank was just out of active service when the little john was widely used. along with the need and the availability of the adapter, the shell was also need to be available and they was expensive to produce. the British was not likely to used it with every tanks.

 

so far i can say out of doubt, it was used on the Tetrach, the Daimler and the British locust (the American sold serial locust to the British to replace the Tetrach in the airborne division, but the tetrach was considered more reliable and never totally lose his place.)

 

another problem is the Tetrach is an Reserve vehicles and with the little john, it will become pretty op. the BR should be raised a bit, after all it's a pretty small tank with a really good speed and a gun that pouch a lot. i think putting it at BR 2.0 would fit it, the 2pdr is still decent at that BR and the little john will just make it better. as new reserve tank, i think the A9 could be fit just as well. it's a nice old school multi-turreted cruiser with 2 additional MG turret in the front, a decent speed but it have almost no armored on the side and the front and rear will only block the LMG.

 

 

Edited by CaID
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Yes, please!

i just played a few games with my tier 1 british tanks and it seems as if 1.71 nerfed the 2-pounder into the ground.

I penetrated the side of a panther from point blank range whilst aiming directly at the gunner, the round passed straight through him and left everyone in the turret a bit wounded (yellow), despite the fact that the AP shell has 80mm of pen and i shot the 40mm side at an almost perfect angle... if the gun could at least penetrate everything it would compensate a bit for that but i have to agree with @Brumpoet since i dont think that the 2-pounder needs a shell like that at its intended BR but for tanks like the Mathilda and the first Churchill its something necessary.

 

Or maybe you add it for all 2-pounders as modification and buff the standard AP and APCBC shells a good bit and make the "little John round" do very little post-pen damage like pre-1.71 APCR rounds. So basically a British 1.0 APCR round to compensate for the lack of HE filler.

So yeah, a great suggestion and i fully support it!

 

Spoiler

btw do you know if the british developed a similar adapter for the 20mm Oerlikon/Polsten AA cannon (or any other cannon really)? I'm just curious

 

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8 minutes ago, Alphanoodle said:

 

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btw do you know if the british developed a similar adapter for the 20mm Oerlikon/Polsten AA cannon (or any other cannon really)? I'm just curious

 

They made one for the 6 pounder. 

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5 minutes ago, Alphanoodle said:

Yes, please!

i just played a few games with my tier 1 british tanks and it seems as if 1.71 nerfed the 2-pounder into the ground.

I penetrated the side of a panther from point blank range whilst aiming directly at the gunner, the round passed straight through him and left everyone in the turret a bit wounded (yellow), despite the fact that the AP shell has 80mm of pen and i shot the 40mm side at an almost perfect angle... if the gun could at least penetrate everything it would compensate a bit for that but i have to agree with @Brumpoet since i dont think that the 2-pounder needs a shell like that at its intended BR but for tanks like the Mathilda and the first Churchill its something necessary.

 

Or maybe you add it for all 2-pounders as modification and buff the standard AP and APCBC shells a good bit and make the "little John round" do very little post-pen damage like pre-1.71 APCR rounds. So basically a British 1.0 APCR round to compensate for the lack of HE filler.

So yeah, a great suggestion and i fully support it!

 

  Hide contents

btw do you know if the british developed a similar adapter for the 20mm Oerlikon/Polsten AA cannon (or any other cannon really)? I'm just curious

 

 

as far i know, no, there is no similar thing used on the 20mm, and for the 37mm of the locust, it was the same adapter without size modification, the adaptor squeeze the shell to reach a size of about 30mm.

 

and if they add it to any 2pdr, the british will be too OP. this modification should keep focus on the historically correct tanks, the 2pdr is a decent gun for the early tank and i see no reason to Nerf it. if Gaijin feel like it's too OP and reduce the effectiveness a a point that someone can get hit by a 40mm and do not die, i think they should just raise the BR of those tank with the 2pdr and add besa 15mm or Vicker 5.5 guns tanks. there is a few they could add with those armament. that could still penetrate the average tanks until BR.2.0

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Well i did some research and found this:

 

As an adaptor to the existing gun could be removed so that normal rounds could be fired, this offered increased anti-armour effect but with obvious drawbacks in combat conditions. When crews discovered the special 'squeeze bore' ammunition was more effective than the standard 2pdr AT round even when not 'squeezed' in practice the adaptors tended to be stored rather than fitted. 

 

So for the sake of simplicity, why not only use the squeeze bore ammo without the adapter? It would allow you to fire standard AP and HE shells but also the squeeze bore ammo without having to remove the adapter every time you switch ammo types. On top of that, it would only provide a bit of extra penetration for the 2pdr meaning it wouldnt be OP even if every single tank, equipped with a 2pdr would receive it and since it also has less post-pen damage it wouldnt be as effective as the standard AP shells. Also there aren't really any tanks around 1.0-2.3 on the axis side that can withstand a hit from a 2pdr AP shell anyway so it wouldnt be OP in any way but rather compensate a bit for the lack of HE filler in their AP shells. The first tanks that can withstand a 2pdr AP effectively are the Pz 3 L and M both of which are at 3.3 meaning the 2pdr on the Mathilda and Churchill could really use that round to fight those guys. Other than that the only real purpose of this round would be to make 2pdr tanks more fun and derpy to use in high tier combat (at least thats what i do ^^)

The source where i found this: https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Littlejohn adaptor&item_type=topic

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the tungsten is a lot harder than the steel, so it's normal that had more penetration. and the penetration of the squeezed round was a lot greater than the squeezed round while also allowing a higher velocity and better precision. the bullet will go more directly with less drop allowing a longer range. if the squeeze in not done you don't win the speed and the range and only win a about 10mm of penetration over the regular round. it's not so interesting.

and for the capacity to resist a shot, any tank can manage to do a ricochet of the 2pdr or absorb the shot without great damage. the 2pdr is not to be used derpely in the high tier even with the little john, it will just be an easy target that cannot do much damage without precise shot. other vehicles with great penetration for the low tier is the Zis-30 who have next to no armor and little transverse for a high velocity gun and HE filter at 2.3, and the panzerjager who have a little less rotation, a little less penetration for a BR.1.7, so i guess with a complete but slow rotation, armor all around, a great agility and the penetration of the little john, even with little post penetration damage, the vehicles can fit from 2.0 to 3.0. it's just something to remind the heavy tank, they have to be careful about the little gun sometime.

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The numbers in the chart are from 1945, and yes it's against a 30 deg plate.

 

here are some 1944 ones that include against a 0 deg plate.

 

21mASVG.jpg

eRmObox.jpg

 

and on a 37mm

MiLMQH0.jpg

Edited by Whelmy
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25 minutes ago, Whelmy said:

The numbers in the chart are from 1945, and yes it's against a 30 deg plate.

 

here are some 1944 ones that include against a 0 deg plate.

 

21mASVG.jpg

eRmObox.jpg

 

and on a 37mm

MiLMQH0.jpg

Very nice.

 

I had heard that the Canadians did some testing with a LJ meant for the 6 pounder, do you have any documents on that?

Edited by Mercedes4321
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Just now, Mercedes4321 said:

Very nice.

 

I had heard that the Canadians did some testing with a LJ meant for the 6 pounder, do you have any documents on that?

not on hand no.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Whelmy said:

not on hand no.

 

 

That's fine then, I had seen an image of some their designs and I wanted to know if you had any documents on how well they performed.

Edited by Mercedes4321
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2 hours ago, Mercedes4321 said:

Very nice.

 

I had heard that the Canadians did some testing with a LJ meant for the 6 pounder, do you have any documents on that?

 

it may be not the actual little john used on the 2pdr. maybe a bit bigger version of the LJ to fit on the 57mm since the LJ was designed for the 40mm. the 57mm variant my have a different name.

 

i found a unreliable mention of Canadian 2pdr and 6pdr next to a mention of the LJ but nothing about the LJ on the 6pdr

p353.jpg

 

2 hours ago, Whelmy said:

The numbers in the chart are from 1945, and yes it's against a 30 deg plate.

 

here are some 1944 ones that include against a 0 deg plate.

 

21mASVG.jpg

eRmObox.jpg

 

and on a 37mm

MiLMQH0.jpg

so 3 shell.

 

the MK 1 with 143mm at the muzzle and 118mm at 500 yards

the Mk 2 with 120mm at the muzzle and 107 at 500 yards

the Mk 1T for the 37mm gun with 112mm at the muzzle and 97mm at 500 yards.

all at 90 degree.

 

this sound suitable for fighting the mid rank vehicles in the games. but just keep in mind the shell have no HE filter and get reduced to 30mm an have a tungsten core who is not likely to get fragmented. that mean one it past the armor, it usually stay in one piece and may kill one or 2 crew member at the time or damage the equipment. an accurate shot on the gunner or the gun should guaranty the victory but only if the enemy is alone and don't try to get away or fight back.

 

along side those awesome chart, i just found the LJ been used on the Tetrach, M22 and Daimler. does anyone have any source to prove the LJ was also used on the Matilda, Valentine or churchill? i saw WoT have it on the matilda but WoT is full of fictional concept.

Edited by CaID
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1 minute ago, CaID said:

 

it may be not the actual little john used on the 2pdr. maybe a bit bigger version of the LJ to fit on the 57mm since the LJ was designed for the 40mm. the 57mm variant my have a different name.

 

i found a unreliable mention of Canadian 2pdr and 6pdr next to a mention of the LJ but nothing about the LJ on the 6pdr

p353.jpg

 

so 3 shell.

 

the MK 1 with 143mm at the muzzle and 118mm at 500 yards

the Mk 2 with 120mm at the muzzle and 107 at 500 yards

the Mk 1T for the 37mm gun with 112mm at the muzzle and 97mm at 500 yards.

all at 90 degree.

 

this sound suitable for fighting the mid rank vehicles in the games. but just keep in mind the shell have no HE filter and get reduced to 30mm an have a tungsten core who is not likely to get fragmented. that mean one it past the armor, it usually stay in one piece and may kill one or 2 crew member at the time or damage the equipment. an accurate shot on the gunner or the gun should guaranty the victory but only if the enemy is alone and don't try to get away or fight back.

Well the Mk 1T was specifically for use with the 37mm, so it was meant for use on British Locusts

Spoiler

Image1232.jpg

 

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13 minutes ago, Mercedes4321 said:

Well the Mk 1T was specifically for use with the 37mm, so it was meant for use on British Locusts

  Hide contents

Image1232.jpg

 

yes i mentioned it was for the 37mm and also mentioned it was used on the british locust. the british was also adding the grenade launcher on the locust. i wish to see it as premium someday.

 

so far the 57mm squeeze-bore adapter was tried but never adopted. all i got is it was squeezing the shell to 42.6mm. the US also tried one for the 57mm squeezing to 40mm and seem to been called the T10. another project cancelled.

Edited by CaID
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On 9/21/2017 at 2:35 PM, Mercedes4321 said:

Very nice.

 

I had heard that the Canadians did some testing with a LJ meant for the 6 pounder, do you have any documents on that?

This popped up, estimates for the littlejohn.

 

KGTYICI.jpg

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  • 1 year later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Suggestion passed to the developers for consideration.

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