Vazeg

Want to AB more realistic? Want to less RNG?

Realism in AB  

112 members have voted

  1. 1. Are you want to more skill and knowledge based gameplay and less RNG?

    • Yes.
      96
    • No, RNG loves me.
      4
    • No, i like the unpredictable happenings.
      12
  2. 2. Are you want to consistent physics and realistic pen/damage model?

    • Yes, it would be nice if we should not have to learnt the attributions of the vehicles and the guns "monthly". Change the BR and MM system, make balance this way.
      69
    • No, those changes are made for the perfection. But must change the BR and MM system too.
      11
    • Just change the BR spread of the battles. If i want an unequal fight i still can uptier my vehicle.
      22
    • I dont want any change. AB is good as it is.
      10


I think arcade battles have issues with random number generator. Too many things depends on RNG and the possibilities are too widespread. This leading too many unrealistic occasion which are ruins the game. 

 

Im talking about penetration values (when a projectile shot through armor which thicker than its pen value, or the opposite), damages (hit ammo rack multiple times but its just block the projectile, hit a truck with granade but crew just turn to yellow), weapon dispersion (when you do a perfectly aimed shot from 50m with a fully skilled gunner and you miss with half meter) .

 

I think AB should be base more to skill and knowledge, istead of this "luck" based RNG like something. 

 

IMO:

(I think RNG is not vorking equally for everyone. This inequity is probably made for the beginners and the less successful players. And the match maker is working the same way. If i start to be successful then it throw me higher BR or put me in a less skilled players team.

Its for somekind of balance.

I guess they want to keep players with this way, but i think it wolud be better if the matchmaking working with similar crew and player level based way and making equally skilled teams.)

 

The other thing is the realism. They always buffing and nerfing things on the vehicles. Pen values, slope modifiers, control, etc. for the balance. 

I think should be better to expand the BR or not mix the tiers or make less BR spread in battles.

Edited by Vazeg
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3 hours ago, Vazeg said:

I think RNG is not vorking equally for everyone

If you can't present any data to back up that claim I'll assume you base your conclusions on brainwaves reflected by your tin foil hat.

 

How do you want to alter current RNG-Mechanics anyway? While I'd personally like to see crew skills getting removed from the game, I think RNG to be a good way to model certain aspects. E.g. cannons are neither absolutely precise in RL and it's probably fair to assume the material tanks are made of isn't 100% homogeneous either.

Edited by Wundsalz
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"I think RNG is not working equally for everyone" - sad and true that.

 

A Publisher would be stupld to confim it, but THERE IS NO reason why a RNG should be in a Game especially with such a high value/influence.

I know a lot of experienced and good players who would subscribe it, but anyways 90% of PvP Games work this way. Who ever started a Training in Game-Design PvP learns this - i speak not of just IT-Programming. Its the easiest way to balance Players in a PvP.

In older PvP-Games like Americas Army etc it was called "cheating" , the reducing of recoil-spread etc....so in newer PvP this what Cheat-Programmers created is already implemented in the Game.

Weak Players need a bonus or they would leave very early without this "Special-RNG-Succes-Moments".

 

Whatever, it,s nothing new and every half-way-clever person knows its and accept to deal with it , cause there will be many years needed till publishers/game-designers will find a better way to balance teams/players.

Reality was never fair.;)

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39 minutes ago, Wundsalz said:

If you can't present any data to back up that claim I'll assume you base your conclusions on brainwaves reflected by your tin foil hat.

 

Cant possible to present any data. Its just simple perception and conjecture.

 

43 minutes ago, Wundsalz said:

How do you want to alter current RNG-Mechanics anyway?

 

If its +/-5% than should be reduced to +/- 1%. Shot, impact, penetration, richochet, damage, fire, etc.... When these things are all on RNG, effect is multiple. So WTF happening. If the numbers are reduced, reduced the chances of irreality.

 

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11 minutes ago, l_CROM said:

"I think RNG is not working equally for everyone" - sad and true that.

 

....there will be many years needed till publishers/game-designers will find a better way to balance teams/players.

 

 

3 hours ago, Vazeg said:

.....i think it wolud be better if the matchmaking working with similar crew and player level based way and making equally skilled teams.)

 

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25 minutes ago, io_i_oi said:

Who would want AB to be 'more' RB when there is already a mode for that..... it's called RB.


Yeah, there's already a mode called 'Realistic Battles'.  Go there if you want that.  No need to change AB.

 

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9 hours ago, Vazeg said:

Too many things depends on RNG and the possibilities are too widespread.

You don't seem to understand what RNG is.

 

There is always more then one possible outcome, some things will happen statistically more frequent and others less.

A random number is used to decide what the outcome will be this time.

 

You need to learn to put the odds in your favor.

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11 hours ago, io_i_oi said:

Who would want AB to be 'more' RB when there is already a mode for that..... it's called RB.

 

10 hours ago, mavfin87 said:

Yeah, there's already a mode called 'Realistic Battles'.  Go there if you want that.  No need to change AB.

 

Maybe you dont understand what is the problem. AB is look like a "gambling" game, everything is depending on "luck" or RNG. If there is just this, it would be bad enough already, but there is more. 

RNG is cheating for the weaker players. I dont know anyone, who not hate this. Maybe those players not, who not good enough to standing hes own feet and gladly playing a dice game. Or even not recognise what happening.

 

 Let me show you something which happened a few hours ago:

 

 

RB is a totally different game style. 

Now you can understand what i want. More realistic not meaning realistic mode, just less RNG and more consistency.

 

PS: And i hope you realize to those hits from that 76mm cannon are not valid on that armor and angle.

 

Edited by Vazeg
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A bit iffy on your positioning. A Tiger 1 gets ~130mm thickness if the gun is fully aligned to the corner's edge of your hull. The hit was also centered so you were quite lucky 1 crew survived which meant RNG actually saved you there.

 

Though it could be as you said it or replays aren't exactly recording the match accurately point for point. The shell may have hit different areas than the replay showed. I remember watching one of my T25 vids where I took damage and survived but the replay showed that I blew up. The recording kept playing showing my burned out T25 driving around.

 

P.S: The M6 may have also used a gray AP shell on you which has 150mm+ pen though the post penetration damage isn't too convincing. Could be the APHE round.

Edited by LilyTheKitty

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17 hours ago, Wundsalz said:

While I'd personally like to see crew skills getting removed from the game.

+1

17 hours ago, Wundsalz said:

I think RNG to be a good way to model certain aspects. E.g. cannons are neither absolutely precise in RL and it's probably fair to assume the material tanks are made of isn't 100% homogeneous either.

So you want your gameplay to depend on luck rather than on skills?

I know War Thunder wants to be somewhat realistic but imo the RNG desnt make it realistic it rather makes it a dice game where it feels like that less good players have more luck than me.

RNG adds a variable that you cant control and cant predict (e.g you can outrun a LF mk9 whislt flying a D9 -> predicable) but you cant predict sparking or some random tank shells that fly god knows where.

 

10 hours ago, Brave_Idiot said:

You need to learn to put the odds in your favor.

You can try, but RNG is gonna get ya some day :)

 

13 hours ago, io_i_oi said:

Who would want AB to be 'more' RB when there is already a mode for that..... it's called RB.

Maybe some people like the style of AB and dont want to play RB...

 

 

In my opinion RNG shouldnt help anyone, everybody should invest the time to get better ingame equaly.

It is totaly not realistic when a P61 gunner onehits you at 600 m whilst evading....

 

Edited by schtreusel
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2 hours ago, LilyTheKitty said:

A bit iffy on your positioning. A Tiger 1 gets ~130mm thickness if the gun is fully aligned to the corner's edge of your hull. The hit was also centered so you were quite lucky 1 crew survived which meant RNG actually saved you there.

 

Its not saved me. 

armor.jpg.a9aeefde86f9f071e415eb9c0b25d1

 

1. Actually its leading the (one pixel diameter) projectile to that tiny area, between the track and that highly sloped plate. (The LFP is angled and sloped too.) 

2. Behind that plate should be another 62 mm thick plateside, which is overlapping the track. (There was APCBC not the "Grey AP" i saw in the replay.)

3. Drivers hatch is overlap the UPF. Can't shot through any 76mm shell. (And i think it did not happen.)

4. And how could destroy the shift gear which was under the 62 mm plate. The Brummbar 150mm, 38 kg, 8.6 kg amatol filled shell's shrapnel can't scratch that plate.

 

You try to explain the happenings one by one, but avoid to see the all event in whole. This serie of unluck is not incidental, this happened with me many times. (Not every is catastrophic like this.)

 

Edited by Vazeg
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You could be right but it could also be the replay inaccuracy I've also mentioned which actually is a valid theory to cover all the issues you stated. The shell may have hit you elsewhere and thd replay isn't showing it right.

 

 If you're really bent on trying to resolve this, I guess there's always the attempt at a bug report. Good luck on that.

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10 minutes ago, Brave_Idiot said:

In a skill game luck is the enemy of a skilled player.

 

Luck and misfortune is everywhere without RNG.

You turn in a corner and there is a t-34/85 point it's cannon at you. But he take a sideshot and you rescue. But you shoot it's wreck accidentaly because of the thrill, so now you unarmed, while another enemy tank go through behind you. It dont notice you... And then your girlfriend start to seek for something on your pc table so you cant see the monitor, while another enemy tank arrive and blow you up.

No need RNG.

RNG is not luck. Its manipulation.

Every game (not pc) in the world is made for get to know how the things are going around you in your world and how can you control to working for you. 

If all your success and fails depending on some algorithm which is outside the rules, you cant learn anything. Except one; you are a victim, even if you win.

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1 hour ago, schtreusel said:

So you want your gameplay to depend on luck rather than on skills?

I know War Thunder wants to be somewhat realistic but imo the RNG desnt make it realistic it rather makes it a dice game where it feels like that less good players have more luck than me.

My argument has been directed at the claim removal of RNG for cannons and armor performance would improve realism, which is nonsense.

 

1 hour ago, schtreusel said:

In my opinion RNG shouldnt help anyone, everybody should invest the time to get better ingame equaly.

It is totaly not realistic when a P61 gunner onehits you at 600 m whilst evading....

Sure it's annoying to die like this, but in the end of the day it's just reasonable some stray bullet gets you killed once in a while. But what's the alternative supposed to be in this scenario? Laser accuracy AI gunners? No AI gunners? Some entirely different approach?

Edited by Wundsalz
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3 minutes ago, schtreusel said:

but AB is unrealistic so why RNG?

Aside from the $$$ argument, perfectly 'straight' guns in planes would make them far too easy to kill. You could land hundreds of bullets in the exact spot which should be a guaranteed kill.

 

In tanks, it's probably to deter long range shots. Why go forward if you can shoot someone dead from 1km out.

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13 minutes ago, Wundsalz said:

Sure it's annoying to die like this, but in the end of the day it's just reasonable some stray bullet gets you killed once in a while. But what's the alternative supposed to be in this scenario? Laser accuracy AI gunners? No AI gunners? Some entirely different approach?

I want fair and even demage output,

as seen in the clip, the P-61 befor he one-shots me gets hit by plenty of 30mm HE shells, which in opinion should have killed him, not only suffer some light engine demage.

 

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43 minutes ago, blastedryan said:

RNG is realistic.

 

RNG can be a good feature if it have just a very minimal infulence to the game physics and nothing to the gameplay.

That very minimal infulence to the game physics can be "realistic". I could live with that.

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56 minutes ago, Vazeg said:

RNG can be a good feature if it have just a very minimal infulence to the game physics and nothing to the gameplay.

I will say again: You don't seem to understand what RNG is.

There is literally no way to have a game without it. You suggest every out come is 100%? I don't understand what that means...

 

The environment and physics sets the probability, the RNG decides what happens.

In a skill game you create +EV (expected value) situation with good choices, over time luck evens out and superior player succeed.

 

I think your claim is that it is not an RNG, but rather a non-random number programed against you. But in that case I would make a tin foil hat joke...

 

Edited by Brave_Idiot
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1 hour ago, Vazeg said:

if it have just a very minimal infulence to the game physics and nothing to the gameplay

How would you accurately model the fragmentation of a shell other than through RNG?

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52 minutes ago, blastedryan said:

How would you accurately model the fragmentation of a shell other than through RNG?

 

Fragmentation spread in cone. There would be rules for the cone size, shrapnel speed, density, impact energy, etc - game physics. Everything and everyone had some resistance and condition (HP) which is determine the scale of the damage (+blast can cause faint or death). RNG determine only what is hit by those shrapnels. Thats should be allright.

And it does not care with the players sctatistic, crew level, player level, cuccess, and other player qualities, because the match maker should care with these things before.

Edited by Vazeg
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Since some players can consistently perform FAR better than others, it's clear that skill has a very strong influence in the game.

 

Putting it on a luck to skill scale of 1-10. 1 being Roulette, 10 being Chess, WT AB is about a 7, RB an 8.

Edited by Hohum33
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