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shadowness1234

KPZ-70

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We need this vehicle so bad for Germany the one with the 120mm Germany at tier 5 right now is a bunch of tin cans that are expected to do one shots but can't. The leopards are not good enough to face the new vehicles of Russia Britain and the USA which actually have armor, Germany need an 8.0/8.3 that can fight and brawl unlike a bit which a leopard can't do, leopards can't take hits and they are very risky to play. Many people have screamed OP when a KPZ-70 addition isn't even close to OP sure it will have good horsepower but it will have a similar top speed and the addition of things like the m60a2 for America just justifies its addition or Germany even more. JUST CAUSE it has a little bit more armor and a good gun which makes things fair and is what Germany needs doesn't make it OP it makes it fair so you guys screaming OP can stop sitting on your high horses clubbing leopards.

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Create a Suggestion here if you feel this should be in the game. Be sure to provide all Historically accurate documents and facts you can find for a sccessfull Suggestion!

Cheers! :salute:

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Posted (edited)

 

What I posted in that thread:

 

Quote

 

Implying that the MBT-70 wouldn't stomp every tank in the game.

 

LMAO

 

- Upper front plate is 190mm at 60° (and has an aluminum layer which will help stop HEAT rounds (to an extent))

- 25.9 HP/ton

- 64 kph top speed

NOT the Sheridan/M60A2's gun

- 10 rounds per minute with conventional ammunition (less using ATGMs)

- Has 152mm APFSDS (9.1 kg projectile at 1478 m/s) (same velocity as DM13, but 1.57 times the mass)

- Has ATGM (not that you'd need it cuz dat APFSDS)

- Has 20mm autocannon on the turret roof to shred SPAA (This one to be specific)

- 36° per second turret traverse

- Hydropneumatic suspension (can hide the lower plate EZ PZ by lowering the hull 15 inches)

 

Not an 8.0 or 8.3 vehicle.

 

 

Edited by muzzleflash98
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1 hour ago, muzzleflash98 said:

 

1.Auto cannon is not a problem 75mm ont he maus for example and there are already examples of every single machine gun that will kill spa and light vehicles

2.hydropneumatic suspension would hide the lower hull but lessen the angle on the upper hull.

3.turret traverse is similar to fast turret traverse we already see in games for example high tier tanks and spaa

4. fast reload rates for high tiers are also in the game

5. Yes can atgm but also has apdfs like other tanks in the game

6. look at the is6 and certain Russian tanks, almost impenetrable from the front because of the tiers they are at this doesn't mean it is OP this means you need to flank it.

 

 

 

 

Not to mention the fast reload rates of high tier and things like the is-6 have early auto loaders implemented

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, shadowness1234 said:

1.Auto cannon is not a problem 75mm ont he maus for example and there are already examples of every single machine gun that will kill spa and light vehicles

 

The auto cannon doesn't make it OP, it just tacks on to how good the thing would be.

 

1 hour ago, shadowness1234 said:

2.hydropneumatic suspension would hide the lower hull but lessen the angle on the upper hull.

 

The suspension could lower the entire tank, not just the front.

Spoiler

59684ff90a979_MBT-70suspension.jpg.1cdd6

 

1 hour ago, shadowness1234 said:

3.turret traverse is similar to fast turret traverse we already see in games for example high tier tanks and spaa

 

It's only going to be matched by a spaded M60A2 with an aced crew. Nothing else gets close to that, excluding SPAA, comes close to that.

 

1 hour ago, shadowness1234 said:

4. fast reload rates for high tiers are also in the game

 

This thing is going to be launching APFSDS rounds every 6 seconds. That would be the fastest reload in 8.0/8.3, and only rivaled by the Vickers MBT (reload speeds are borked, but that's a different argument).

 

1 hour ago, shadowness1234 said:

5. Yes can atgm but also has apdfs like other tanks in the game

3 hours ago, muzzleflash98 said:

- Has ATGM (not that you'd need it cuz dat APFSDS)

 

Hmmm, I thought I had read something like that before...

 

1 hour ago, shadowness1234 said:

6. look at the is6 and certain Russian tanks, almost impenetrable from the front because of the tiers they are at this doesn't mean it is OP this means you need to flank it.

 

"just flank it bro"

 

You realize that this thing is just as fast as the Leopard, right? You realize the HP/ton this thing has, right?

 

There's a huge difference between flanking a heavy tank with mediocre mobility and attempting to flank something with Leopard levels of mobility.

 

1 hour ago, shadowness1234 said:

Not to mention the fast reload rates of high tier and things like the is-6 have early auto loaders implemented

 

I guess I didn't realize that assisted loading to barely reach 3 rounds per minute was the same as pumping out a round every 6 seconds.

 

 

 

The APFSDS round has 53% more energy than M735 APFSDS, which can kill T-64s/T-72s from close range. I don't have a penetration table for the 152mm APFSDS, but a 53% increase in muzzle energy is not to be scoffed at.

 

 

 

To recap:

 

Great armor

Leopard tier mobility

Superb firepower

 

It's far and away better than anything in the game. If that doesn't make something OP, I don't know what does.

 

Edited by muzzleflash98
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It is essentially an m60a2 with more horse power and if the reload rate is that much of a problem it is something that can be slightly nerfed. It is a fair implementation. And if you have played a leopard you would understand it is needed for Germany. but it appears you are a U.S. tank player mainly

 

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T95E1 is another example with that same logic the reload rate with a good crew can be lowered to close to a few seconds similar to the KPZ-70 the KPZ-70 should be added with it's full capabilities slightly limited by the crew mechanic and slight nerfing. My main point is this tank is needed for Germany regardless. otherwise tier 5 is just Leopard clubbing and Germany is probably the weakest tier 5 nation with America and Russia currently dominating tier 5 since they have multi purpose and heavily powerful tanks at that tier it-1,t-55,t95e-1,m60's, etc etc

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me and my friend are both skilled players who have been playing for atleast 3 years, he can average 5-6 kills in a m60a1 and a chieftain and in a leopard 0-2 kills at most and by average I mean this is what he gets in repetitive games, I get the same result, there Is a clear problem and imbalance

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7 hours ago, shadowness1234 said:

With your same logic, you wouldn't want something like the T-55 in the game, has great mobility, frontal armor, fast reload, and apdfs. KPZ-70 would be good but fair and killable any tank can be flanked no matter how mobile it is.

 

The T-55 is nothing but a slightly up-armored T-54 with better ammunition. The MBT-70 has far better mobility, 90% more frontal hull armor, about 2/3 the reload, and APFSDS that's probably a lot better than anything in the game. The T-55 is slightly more mobile than most NATO tanks, but trades that for armor. The MBT-70 is better than any MBT we have in every way.

 

7 hours ago, shadowness1234 said:

T95E1 is another example with that same logic the reload rate with a good crew can be lowered to close to a few seconds similar to the KPZ-70 the KPZ-70 should be added with it's full capabilities slightly limited by the crew mechanic and slight nerfing. My main point is this tank is needed for Germany regardless. otherwise tier 5 is just Leopard clubbing and Germany is probably the weakest tier 5 nation with America and Russia currently dominating tier 5 since they have multi purpose and heavily powerful tanks at that tier it-1,t-55,t95e-1,m60's, etc etc

 

The T95E1 has a longer reload than the M60, which has a longer reload than the Chieftan, which has a longer reload than the Leopard, which still has a several second longer reload than the MBT-70. And it's a lot harder to "balance" a tank by playing with its reload rate when it has an autoloader with a stated reload rate. I agree that Germany needs something, but it's not this.

 

7 hours ago, shadowness1234 said:

me and my friend are both skilled players who have been playing for atleast 3 years, he can average 5-6 kills in a m60a1 and a chieftain and in a leopard 0-2 kills at most and by average I mean this is what he gets in repetitive games, I get the same result, there Is a clear problem and imbalance

 

Ah, the good old "somebody does better in that than they do in this" argument. There could be a lot of reasons you or your friend would do better in an M60A1. However averaging 5-6 kills would make you two some of the better players out there, which makes it odd that neither of you can do any better than that in the Leopard.

 

3 hours ago, Endwarcb said:

ok i want t64(a) to counter this thing

 

The T-64A is far more on par with the MBT-70 than anything we have now. OP, do you also want the T-64A to be added at 8.0/8.3?

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Posted (edited)

The Leos seem to have been hit pretty hard by the HEATFS nerf. I've been checking avg stats on thunderskill, and w/l ratio as well as k/d have dropped massively. I think that buffing HEATFS back to it's prior performance and/or buffing APDS to be less crap would help make Germany more competitive again.

If not that, then adding APFSDS ammunition to at least the Leo 1a1 would really help. At the moment, APFSDS seems to be one of he best ammo types in game in terms of combining damage output with penetration. I see no reason why this couldn't be added, bearing in mind the t55s APFSDS is from the late 70s, while the Leo 1 had recieved it by 1978 at the latest (AFAIK).

The leopard is a tank which really relies on it's gun above all else (good mobility is only really an advantage when the gun is also good enough to reliably disable enemies), so either de-nerfing HEATFS and/or adding APFSDS would probably solve most of Germany's problems at top tier right now. This would be a less drastic solution than adding the 120mm armed tanks or the kpz-70, which would no doubt just result in tanks like the t64/t72 being added. 

Edited by Dantheman66
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Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, Dantheman66 said:

buffing APDS to be less crap would help make Germany more competitive again.

 

Hopefully they fix APDS in the next major patch. Unfortunately I don't see them doing that until then, as they still want APFSDS to be "shiny."

 

12 minutes ago, Dantheman66 said:

If not that, then adding APFSDS ammunition to at least the Leo 1a1 would really help. At the moment, APFSDS seems to be one of he best ammo types in game in terms of combining damage output with penetration. I see no reason why this couldn't be added, bearing in mind the t55s APFSDS is from the late 70s, while the Leo 1 had recieved it by 1978 at the latest (AFAIK).

 

The problem is that APFSDS is technically able to tangle with T-64s/T-72s, which would only renew the push for those tanks to be added at somewhere around 8.3.

Edited by muzzleflash98
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Posted (edited)

8 minutes ago, muzzleflash98 said:

 

 

 

 

The problem is that APFSDS is technically able to tangle with T-64s/T-72s, which would only renew the push for those tanks to be added at somewhere around 8.3.

I don't see why. We already have APFSDS added to the US tree, and there are ATGMS with up to 800mm of pen able to deal with T64s just as well as any APFSDS round. Even the chieftains APDS is *technically* able to deal with the t-64/t-72.
The push for the t64/72 has been going on since the leo 1 was added pretty much. It won't change just because a tank gets some ammo already available to others in game. Besides, 

if the t64/72 is added it will almost definitely be alongside the kpz-70 at least, so OP will have his wish granted anyway. 

Edited by Dantheman66
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37 minutes ago, Dantheman66 said:

I don't see why. We already have APFSDS added to the US tree, and there are ATGMS with up to 800mm of pen able to deal with T64s just as well as any APFSDS round. Even the chieftains APDS is *technically* able to deal with the t-64/t-72.
The push for the t64/72 has been going on since the leo 1 was added pretty much. It won't change just because a tank gets some ammo already available to others in game. Besides, 

if the t64/72 is added it will almost definitely be alongside the kpz-70 at least, so OP will have his wish granted anyway. 

 

I would be ok with it being added at a higher BR, but finding contemporary vehicles for it is difficult. I'm probably a little over-zealous in shooting down the T-64 because of the people who want it at 8.0.

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1 hour ago, nayfas2 said:

i hope they put mbt-70 toguether with t-64 and t-72 ural, since they have almost same capabilities, btw if op think they should be 8.0-8.3 (i dont think so) but 9.0 would be great.

 

That's a much better idea. Some of NATO's better MBTs (M60A1, Leo 1A1A1) could go to 8.3, and have researchable APFSDS. The Chieftan Mk. 5 could get a researchable APDS round (wouldn't be much improvement, but some) which would help it combat these better tanks as well as make it more of an improvement over the Mk. 3. L23 APFSDS seems to not be an option due to still being classified though.

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the keiler can be easily penetrated by APDS and APDSFS already in game at normal in game engaging distance (500m). I'm not even sure that spaced armor is correctly modeled in game.
the gun would be similar to the russian 115mm already in game.

hydro pneumatic suspensions are barely useful only on some maps.

20mm too strong vs SPAAG? Oh... Is that probably because "anti air" vehicles are designed to kill planes and not tanks?

3 men crew with the driver in the turret will make this tank just good, but not op.

 

germany really need this tank and URSS definitely do not need a T64 or even a T72

Edited by Khurt
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On 14-7-2017 at 9:46 AM, shadowness1234 said:

With your same logic, you wouldn't want something like the T-55 in the game, has great mobility, frontal armor, fast reload, and apdfs. KPZ-70 would be good but fair and killable any tank can be flanked no matter how mobile it is.

 

Lol??? how are you this oblivious/clueless?

 

MBT-70 turret armour: 288mm-600mm (not taking the mantlet into account)

T-55A turret armour: 192mm-400mm

 

MBT-70 upper glacis: 330mm

T-55A upper glacis: 180mm

 

MBT-70 Hp/tonn ratio: 26

T-55A Hp/tonn ratio: 16

 

Anyways, you get the point, the MBT-70 is blatant powercreep of the same level the T-64A would be.

 

On 14-7-2017 at 10:10 AM, shadowness1234 said:

me and my friend are both skilled players who have been playing for atleast 3 years, he can average 5-6 kills in a m60a1 and a chieftain and in a leopard 0-2 kills at most and by average I mean this is what he gets in repetitive games, I get the same result, there Is a clear problem and imbalance

 

Right...

 

Leop.png.432475614d278dd6a1c1b0d0b5dd022

 

On 14-7-2017 at 9:53 AM, shadowness1234 said:

but it appears you are a U.S. tank player mainly

 

Kinda ironic to dismiss his argument on that basis considering:

 

Stat.thumb.png.98deaee0eee2aa3238b849b86

 

You only play German Tier V...

 

On 14-7-2017 at 1:34 AM, shadowness1234 said:

We need this vehicle so bad for Germany the one with the 120mm Germany at tier 5

 

There is no 120mm armed MBT-70/Kpz-70, it's a fantasy, all models were armed with the 152mm.

 

51 minutes ago, Khurt said:

the keiler can be easily penetrated by APDS and APDSFS already in game at normal in game engaging distance (500m). I'm not even sure that spaced armor is correctly modeled in game.
the gun would be similar to the russian 115mm already in game.

hydro pneumatic suspensions are barely useful only on some maps.

20mm too strong vs SPAAG? Oh... Is that probably because "anti air" vehicles are designed to kill planes and not tanks?

3 men crew with the driver in the turret will make this tank just good, but not op.

 

germany really need this tank and URSS definitely do not need a T64 or even a T72

 

How do people manage to get THIS misinformed??

 

330mm UFP, impenetrable by quite a few APDS shells in-game, turret is highly resistant aswell.

No, the gun is not in any way similar to the 2A20 115mm, this XM150E5 reloads in less than half the time it takes the 115mm to be loaded, besides, since when does our T-62 launch ATGM's?

Hydro-pneumatic suspension is always better to have than to not have, it's as simple as that.

How exactly does the total amount of crew dictate it's overall effectiveness? it's got the mobility of a M18 Hellcat, the firepower of a Chieftain on steroids and the armour that puts the T-10M to shame, all the while having the best gun handling of any Tier V tank in the entire game...

 

''Not OP''

 

On 14-7-2017 at 6:46 PM, Dantheman66 said:

I don't see why. We already have APFSDS added to the US tree, and there are ATGMS with up to 800mm of pen able to deal with T64s just as well as any APFSDS round. Even the chieftains APDS is *technically* able to deal with the t-64/t-72.
The push for the t64/72 has been going on since the leo 1 was added pretty much. It won't change just because a tank gets some ammo already available to others in game. Besides, 

if the t64/72 is added it will almost definitely be alongside the kpz-70 at least, so OP will have his wish granted anyway. 

 

Comparing current APFSDS to the 125mm APFSDS isn't exactly fair,

 

2A26M2 APFSDS 3BM-9 can smash Chieftain turret fronts from 3000 metres away.

 

The Leopard has in no way ''pushed'' for the T-64/T-72, those tanks are leagues above the Leopard, luckily, Gaijin agrees.

 

If the T-64A/MBT-70 twins get added, say goodbye to the Japanese and British Tier V's, Chieftains APFSDS is classified, Japanese don't get anything better than the Type-74 that is not also classified, they'll be stuck with out-dated gear fighting tanks with superior armour, firepower and mobility all day long.

 

 


 

If you people want a new and more competitive German Tier V main batle tank, stick to suggesting something reasonable perhaps? Leopard 1 A4 with DM23 APFSDS is far more reasonable than immediately jumping to a Kpz-70, all you're doing by asking for the Kpz-70 is pushing further and further into the territory where the Sovjet composite clubmachines could start appearing, a situation you'd rather avoid.

 

Edited by Necrons31467
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Source for the 330mm front armor, because MBT-70s front armor by a number of sources is this

mbt70_5_.png

800px-MBT-70_final_sketch.JPG

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4 minutes ago, RoflSeal said:

Source for the 330mm front armor, because MBT-70s front armor by a number of sources is this

mbt70_5_.png

800px-MBT-70_final_sketch.JPG

 

 

MBT-70.png.1b6216aacf6c26803d3148d975196

 

 

70mm RHA - 50mm Aluminum insert (roughly 25mm RHA equivalent)- 70mm RHA

 

That's 70 + 25 + 70 = 165mm total, 165mm @ 60° = 330mm LoS effective thickness.

Edited by Necrons31467
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Sure, if it´s put at 9.3+ together with the T64/T72, later Chieftains with stillbrew and APFSDS, etc. This belongs at an entirely new tier. A tier I´d love to see, btw

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3 minutes ago, Necrons31467 said:

330mm UFP, impenetrable by quite a few APDS shells in-game, turret is highly resistant aswell.

 

ye, nice... too bad that it is a composite armor with inner softer core which offer way less protection vs kinetic shots. It would perform similar to a t62 vs solid shots and i don't think it would still be enough to stop the >400mm penetration HEAT we already have in game. If some problem would rise, they can simply add the bastion missile to the T-55

 

9 minutes ago, Necrons31467 said:

No, the gun is not in any way similar to the 2A20 115mm, this XM150E5 reloads in less than half the time it takes the 115mm to be loaded.

unless the german Keiler did not use the XM150E5 gun, but the 120mm L44. it would use the old APDS design as stock ammunition and will then unlock the APDSFS (4.some kg for 1600 muzzle velocity, similar to the 3BM3). I agree that the 700mm pen HEATFS would be too much and not needed.

 

14 minutes ago, Necrons31467 said:

Hydro-pneumatic suspension is always better to have than to not have, it's as simple as that.

still not a reason to call it "op"

 

19 minutes ago, Necrons31467 said:

How exactly does the total amount of crew dictate it's overall effectiveness?

did u ever played this game? What happen when a 3 people crew tank is hit? 2 people die and the tank get disabled. More people->more people to kill before the tank can be disabled.

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43 minutes ago, Khurt said:

ye, nice... too bad that it is a composite armor with inner softer core which offer way less protection vs kinetic shots. It would perform similar to a t62 vs solid shots and i don't think it would still be enough to stop the >400mm penetration HEAT we already have in game. If some problem would rise, they can simply add the bastion missile to the T-55

 

I literally did the math on it just 2 posts above, did you not bother to read that?

 

I accounted for the aluminum lower RHA equivalence.

 

Quote

unless the german Keiler did not use the XM150E5 gun, but the 120mm L44. it would use the old APDS design as stock ammunition and will then unlock the APDSFS (4.some kg for 1600 muzzle velocity, similar to the 3BM3). I agree that the 700mm pen HEATFS would be too much and not needed.

 

FFS, why is this stupid myth still around?

 

 

Quote

still not a reason to call it "op"

 

Never stated it was ''OP'' specifically for that benefit alone.

 

Quote

did u ever played this game? What happen when a 3 people crew tank is hit? 2 people die and the tank get disabled. More people->more people to kill before the tank can be disabled.

 

That's like saying:

 

''T-72 gets it's turret blown off all the time in Syria because it's ammo is easily detonated, thus it would be fine in War Thunder''

 

While not taking into account that the ammunition is stored only behind the upper and lower glacis, and not the turret, the upper glacis of which is entirely immune against any 105mm ammunition currently in-game, aswell as several HEAT rounds and ATGM's, and thus the ammunition is relatively safe.

 

If the turret isn;t being penetrated, the amount of crew behind it is irrelevant.

 

Edited by Necrons31467
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