*The_Prince_Jay

Why is the m46 7.0?

17 hours ago, *The_Prince_Jay said:

Don't heatfs that would be the bs excuse.

 

This **** me off cause  of 3 reasons

 

1-  if the is6 never showed up the m46 would have never got that heatfs and I wouldn't  have to vs atgms. 

2- the stock grind will be equally xxxx as m47 and m48

3- if it was cause of the heatfs  how the flying xxxx did the ru251 not get changed?

 

Rip me and the m46 you were 2nd favorite  tank before Gajin f'd you over like the t32

 

 

m46 would eventualy get HEAT replaced with HEAT-FS . IS6 only speed up process (probably) 

Stock grind was bad and its still bad. No changes here 

Ru251 is fresh premium (very bad business decision) so it has to attract more buyers. Attractive BR and vehicle concept makes money.

 

M46 is still good vehicle (not the best,almost competitive even with heat-fs). Quitting is not the option.

medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Slayer3XD said:

So these are all the matches I had on my M46 today.

One victory out of ten matches. HEAT-FS, cap n' fly, full uptiers to 8.0, US teams filled with 6.7 and a few 7.0 tanks going against Russian/German teams packed with 7.0, 7.3 and 7.7 tanks.

So, how is HEAT-FS on the M46 OP or game breaking again? Or how the US is so overpowered again? How German and Russian tanks can't compete again? 

I understand your frustration but that is the result of BR compression and broken MM. The M46 with HEAT-FS is not a 6.7 tank anymore otherwise it would be part of the problem, BR compression. Like the RU 251 and the ST-Ax tanks also not 6.3, if they were playable.

I bet a match GER vs. USSR or GER vs. US/UK would look like this too.

As long as the UK tanks are undertiered (Cent. mk. 10 and Vickers MBT at 7.0, Conquorer at 7.3, Cent. 3 at 6.3 also the Cent. mk.1 is highly questionable at 5.7) they will drag more and more "heavy metal" in lower BRs with the result... BR compression. Look where the Ferdi is now... 6.3. Will we see the IS-3 at 7.0? Because the UK tech tree have no problem with it.

As long as Gaijin is not willing to raise their BRs and extend the max BR (or at least use the much 8.3 more) nothing will change.

But BR compression in higher BRs can be easier solved (by max. BR) then BR compression in lower BRs.

Arguing the M46 isn't a 7.0 tank isn't a solution for decompression.

medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Khurt said:

 

seems to be a problem of your, since looking at stats, this tank has a solid 57% win rate vs a 45% of panther 2

 

http://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/us_m46_patton

http://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/germ_panther_II

 

Looking at RB WRs isn't a fair comparison because gameplay elements like CAS and map design favour American tanks, while dumping all over German tanks.

As well as this, the USA has the potential to be teamed up with GB and the USSR in matches, while Germany is left with Japan (which has many flaws and badly modelled features in game.)

 

A fair way would be to look at a 1v1 Panther II vs M46 encounter in ideal conditions (i.e. without team mates neaby to kill/damage/distract the Panther and without CAS to nuke it).

The primary ammo selection when you use the M3A1 or Type 61 90mm is usually APCBC-HE then HEAT-FS, with shells distributed to minimise ammo racking. It's reasonable to assume that an M46 has M82 APCBC-HE loaded first in case it can flank or exploit weakspots on a tank. 

The Panther II has the excellent PzGr 39/43 APCBC-HE shell which has far more penetration than the M82 shell, but less filler- however it's ususally potent enough for an OHK on a lot of tanks. It's the stock shell and the best one available for the 88mm kwk43 so it can be assumed that the average Panther II player will have it loaded straight away. 

 

In a head on battle between these two tanks, the Panther II can penetrate the M46's front plate and OHK it with PzGr 39/43. If the M46 has M82 loaded initially, it's forced to shoot at the turret cheek weakspot- which will only kill gunner & commander, and maybe the loader if you're lucky. The hull crew will be unaffected. If the M46 has HEAT-FS loaded first, a hull shot will only kill the driver or hull machine gunner since HEAT-FS post-pen is so awful. A follow up APCBC-HE shot to the turret is needed, but by that time the Panther II will have nailed the M46 through the front plate. 

 

If the M46 hits the Panther II's flanks with M82, it's a kill. Same goes if the Panther II gets into a position where it can kill the M46 from the flanks. 

All HEAT-FS does is provide a way to engage the Panther II from the front a little better. I've only used HEAT-FS against German tanks very rarely since I usually use APCBC-HE against the turret or flank them. 

Edited by *AllahHuAirlines
  • Upvote 3
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

heat fs post penetration is quite good compared to some patch ago and it would most likely detonate the ammunition stored just behind the driver or the machine gunner. An APHE shot on the turret would easily penetrate the panther 2, maybe not killing it at the first shot, but making it unable to return fire for at least 30 secs with maxed crew.
the first tank that shot, will win the fight, in optimal condition for both tanks.

Also, I can't really understand what are we talking about: 7.0 or 6.7 M46 vs Panther 2 will always be a really common matchup and also pretty much balanced I'd say. The only difference is that while the M46 at 7.0 will most likely face leopards that can easily be penetrate with both stock shell and APHE shell and can still use HEATFS with other targets, panther 2s commonly face heavily armored enemies that cannot be penetrated at all on the front.
 

medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Khurt said:

heat fs post penetration is quite good

 

Lel.

 

HEAT-FS, APDS and Solid Shot AP currently all have abysmal performance, the fragments they produce, or rather, lack of fragments they produce with penetrating hits is beyond laughable at this point, doesn't seem like Gaijin believes this is an actual issue either.

  • Upvote 6
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1- pretty clear the shot did not penetrate for some reason. heat and hesh rounds tend to be a bit buggy.

2-please, learn to read phrases till the very end and not only the part you want to read.

 

edit: 3- actually, APDS rounds do produce tons of fragments.

Edited by Khurt
medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HEAT-FS genuinely has awful post penetration. I get better performance with 84mm 20pdr APDS than I do with 90mm HEAT-FS.

I'm not sure why you believe that it's good at anything except penning a lot of armour and doing eff all. It was ninja nerfed big time. 

Edited by *AllahHuAirlines
  • Upvote 2
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Khurt said:

1- pretty clear the shot did not penetrate for some reason. heat and hesh rounds tend to be a bit buggy.

2-please, learn to read phrases till the very end and not only the part you want to read.

 

edit: 3- actually, APDS rounds do produce tons of fragments.

I switched from HEAT-FS to APDS in my T29 Light tank exactly because the HEAT-FS was failing to ammo rack and have an acceptable post penetration damage. 

 

Right now, you need good amounts of luck to OHK using HEAT-FS, it usually kills two or three crew members depending on the hit. Still a frontal engagements favor tanks capable of outright OHK'ing the opposition. Each extra second trying to kill a tank is another second you can be killed by another tank since you need to finish your target to get a with a second shot instead of just switching to another target.

On 7/7/2017 at 5:40 AM, *AllahHuAirlines said:

snip

I've noticed the M82 shell lost some performance, I've seen it fail to kill Kugels and Pz IVs on frontal hits and more often than I'd like to to happen to completely fail at killing Panthers on turret hits as the fragments, for some reason, don't reach the front crew members and don't seem to reach the ammo stored on the sides. So thanks to that and seeing a lot of Russian tanks, I am loading HEAT-FS as my primary shell. 

 

If you aim at the upper side of the UFP you probably can kill the driver and the gunner if the turret is aligned with the hull and then fire a second hit on the other side to kill the loader and co-driver. However it takes at least 19 seconds to kill a single German tank if all shots hit the target where you intend to. If you hit a little lower it will hit the transmission, kill either the driver and the co-driver depending of the angle but leave the gunner, loader and commander alive, or you hit the turret and kill the gunner and commander but probably won't damage the gun breach which leaves the enemy tank with a driver to get away to cover and enough crew to fill the gunner/loader role in the turret. If the target doesn't leave the area and you can line up a third hit we're talking about taking almost 30 seconds to score a kill where the opposition needs just a single hit. 

On 7/7/2017 at 8:09 AM, Khurt said:

heat fs post penetration is quite good compared to some patch ago and it would most likely detonate the ammunition stored just behind the driver or the machine gunner. An APHE shot on the turret would easily penetrate the panther 2, maybe not killing it at the first shot, but making it unable to return fire for at least 30 secs with maxed crew.
the first tank that shot, will win the fight, in optimal condition for both tanks.

Also, I can't really understand what are we talking about: 7.0 or 6.7 M46 vs Panther 2 will always be a really common matchup and also pretty much balanced I'd say. The only difference is that while the M46 at 7.0 will most likely face leopards that can easily be penetrate with both stock shell and APHE shell and can still use HEATFS with other targets, panther 2s commonly face heavily armored enemies that cannot be penetrated at all on the front.
 

No it won't be mostly fighting Leopards. The amount of Leos I've seen was very low and it still requires a full uptier to happen, what I've seen a lot however were Panther IIs and T-54s advancing with a lot of German and Soviet heavy tanks. All of which don't have any problems OHK'ing the M46 since they all have stock APHE capable of cutting through its armor with ease. 

On 7/7/2017 at 5:08 AM, Khurt said:

 

seems to be a problem of your, since looking at stats, this tank has a solid 57% win rate vs a 45% of panther 2

 

http://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/us_m46_patton

http://thunderskill.com/en/vehicle/germ_panther_II

Thunderskill hasn't updated the M46 monthly stats yet as the BR raise was this month. 

 

But then, I am pretty much giving up of my M46 as my primary tank, instead I'll use the T92 to cap or score a few hits, get some assists or kills then spawn a P-47, from them I'll mop the floor with HVARs and if I'm shot down then I spawn the M46 to kill the reserve tanks and SPAAGs left. 

 

Cheap and dirty tactic but at this point I don't care anymore, if I'm going fight tanks that outclass my tanks I'd rather fight in them in the air, not in the ground. At least I'll do it before they nerf that too.

Edited by Slayer3XD
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

7 hours ago, Slayer3XD said:

I've noticed the M82 shell lost some performance, I've seen it fail to kill Kugels and Pz IVs on frontal hits and more often than I'd like to to happen to completely fail at killing Panthers on turret hits as the fragments, for some reason, don't reach the front crew members and don't seem to reach the ammo stored on the sides. So thanks to that and seeing a lot of Russian tanks, I am loading HEAT-FS as my primary shell. 

 

 

Not even the nuke T29's APCBC shell can reliable 1 shot a Panther. Usually it will destroy everything inside the turret and the Panther will survive with the MG gunner and driver.

  • Upvote 2
medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/6/2017 at 6:51 PM, Conraire said:

My guess would be, because it's an American tank...

I actually get more irritated at the fact, that the US was the first nation, out of all the nations to use HEAT rounds, to actually develop and field Fin Stabilized HEAT rounds.  Yet in game..... they're almost the last nation to get access to the shell in the tech tree.  Because somehow the Russians magically get it at 5.3.

 

RU 251 Should of been moved up to 7.0 as well.  And no, low armor isn't an excuse.  The 251 is also far more mobile, and currently has a faster rate of fire, and no ammo grind to work through.  This is also implying that the M46 is somehow equal to the T-44-100 or IS-6.  Both of which have better armor, and a better gun. 

 

This. I'm no conspiracy theorists but I postulate that Gaijin has something against the mid to bottom sectors of the U.S. tech tree. How an HVSS Sherman with the 76mm gun of the M10 GMC can sit at BR 5.3, the M18 GMC at 5.3, the M36 GMC at 5.7, and the M4A2 at 4.3 is beyond me.

 

Gaijin were so quick to cave into the seething angry hordes of Tiger II players which is just plain SAD! People make a big hoo hah about legitimate problems like the spawn system, historical inaccuracies and utterly awful map design yet Gaijin remains completely silent. A sudden cry of Muh Tiger IIs not clubbing no more and they collapse more resoundingly than the twin towers. Pathetic.

 

Concurred on the case of the Ru 251, 6.7 is simply too low, 7.0 or 7.3 would be much better.

 

16 hours ago, *AllahHuAirlines said:

HEAT-FS genuinely has awful post penetration. I get better performance with 84mm 20pdr APDS than I do with 90mm HEAT-FS.

I'm not sure why you believe that it's good at anything except penning a lot of armour and doing eff all. It was ninja nerfed big time. 

 

Tell me about it, my Type 62's HEAT-FS got stopped by a damn Ferdinand's radio station of all things. Realism 10/10 would fire HEAT-FS again.

Edited by Superior_To_You
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6.7.2017 at 10:49 PM, *MiseryIndex556 said:

 

Germans have Ru251 and Japanese have the STA and STB

40€ Premium that can be killed by Heavy machine guns and a medium with worse mobility than a Heavy tank, while also having no armor even vs Tier 1 tanks.

And the STB-1 is 8.0.

On 6.7.2017 at 11:30 PM, Xnetexe said:

 

Russia and Germany have better armor at each tier.

The only exception is the T95, which is literally the slowest vehicle in the game

The US has the by far best armored Tier III tank, the M4A3E2. And both T29 and T34 have a laughably higher survivability than a Tiger II when they can Cover their LFP, not to speak of the T29s incredible repair-speeds  (my T29 on a **** crew with barely any skills once needed 9 Seconds to repair a broken turretring and breach, while having already lost 3 crewmembers. My Tiger II with expert-crew needs over 20 seconds for one track when everyones alive), and the Tiger II still has the "Bad steel" modifier on it's frontal armor, making it effectively worse than shown in the armor viewer.

 

On 6.7.2017 at 11:30 PM, Xnetexe said:

Germany has airborne HVAP rounds which can decimate tanks with no aim required as well as the best SPAAs in the game.

Russians have better low altitude fighters than the US and also have the FAB-5000 bomb.

The only gun that is actually effective with those rounds is the Mk103, which is, except the Ho229, allmost exclusively mounted on large, unmaneuverable heavy fighters, that are easily shot down by any fighter-pilot who has any clue of who a fighter works. And, unless you get a ammorack, you need multiple attackruns on a single target, increasing your probability of beeing shot down. Compare that to spawning with a P47, deleting several tanks with HVARs and then still having a fighter that can secure air-superiority.

And please, the only plane that can carry the FAB-5000 is the Pe-8.

On 6.7.2017 at 11:30 PM, Xnetexe said:

APDS has poor post penetration damage compared to AP/APHE rounds and are ineffective against heavily sloped armor such as that on Russian tanks.

And then why exactly does everyone I know who plays the brits haverschiedenen absolutely broken winrates ? I have seen guys playing 25 games with the Brits at Tier IV in row, and not losing single one. Wether people want to admit it or not, the Brits have absolutely ZERO problems competition in Tier IV.

On 6.7.2017 at 11:30 PM, Xnetexe said:

and Germany has the Ru 251 which is the fastest tank in the game as well as the Sd. Kfz. 234/2 which is the fastest ground vehicle in the game.

Single Premium vehicle that will always be alone because there are no mediums to back it up, and a vehicle that can't drive up any kind of height without losing 90% of it's speed, if it can go up that Hill at all.

On 7.7.2017 at 0:22 AM, Slayer3XD said:

So these are all the matches I had on my M46 today.

 

One victory out of ten matches. HEAT-FS, cap n' fly, full uptiers to 8.0, US teams filled with 6.7 and a few 7.0 tanks going against Russian/German teams packed with 7.0, 7.3 and 7.7 tanks.

 

So, how is HEAT-FS on the M46 OP or game breaking again? Or how the US is so overpowered again? How German and Russian tanks can't compete again? 

20170706191721_1.jpg

All games I had with the germans in the last two weeks, I was paired up with the russians Two times, I won one of those, and that was exclusively because of one t-44-100, and because half the American Team immidieatly ditched their tanks for planes, and the other half going straight to our spawn to camp, enabling us to take control of the cap-points. All Games where it was just Germany vs anyone,  I lost. And the one other match with Rus+Ger we lost, while we had 3 7.0 tanks (One Panther II, one T-44-100 and one IS-6.) The americans had 4 M46s, one M41 and the rest was T29s. 

And the only reason why Germany is teamed up with Russia so much at the moment is because no one in their right mind still plays them at Tier IV, but shitloads of people play US and the brits  (two days ago, the queue was 20 US, 12 Russians, 4 germans and 83 brits.). Since germany (for some reason) can't  be teamed up with Britain, but doesn't have enough people who play it currently on it's own and the MM always tries to get US and Britain together, they get paired with the last nation left, the russians. And thats the only thing enabling them to win any rounds. And I highly doubt anyone gets a 7.3 battle because of the germans, if anything, they get it because of the T-54s.

  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, IronVader501 said:

And then why exactly does everyone I know who plays the brits haverschiedenen absolutely broken winrates ? I have seen guys playing 25 games with the Brits at Tier IV in row, and not losing single one. Wether people want to admit it or not, the Brits have absolutely ZERO problems competition in Tier IV.

 

Win rates are a pretty awful way to judge GF nations like the Brits and the Americans since they have excellent CAS which ensures 7-8/10 battles are wins. 

A player can do averagely on the ground, spawn in a Wyvern and then knock out as many tanks as they want with RP-3s.

  • Upvote 2
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, IronVader501 said:

The US has the by far best armored Tier III tank, the M4A3E2.

Churchill Mk VII has more armor than the M4A3E2.

And the IS-1 and Tiger E/H1 are also Tier III tanks.

6 hours ago, IronVader501 said:

both T29 and T34 have a laughably higher survivability than a Tiger II when they can Cover their LFP

And both the T29 and T34 have a laughably lower survivability than a Tiger II when they cannot cover their LFP. Russian 100mm+ cannons and the German 88mm KwK43 cannon can easily penetrate the parts of the hull that aren't covered in tracks with APHE whereas US 90mm APHE cannot penetrate Tiger II's turret cheeks.

6 hours ago, IronVader501 said:

Tiger II still has the "Bad steel" modifier on it's frontal armor, making it effectively worse than shown in the armor viewer.

Tiger II uses Rolled Homogeneous armor. The T29/34 uses Cast Homogeneous armor. Cast Homogeneous is weaker than Rolled Homogeneous.

6 hours ago, IronVader501 said:

The only gun that is actually effective with those rounds is the Mk103, which is, except the Ho229, allmost exclusively mounted on large, unmaneuverable heavy fighters, that are easily shot down by any fighter-pilot who has any clue of who a fighter works. And, unless you get a ammorack, you need multiple attackruns on a single target, increasing your probability of beeing shot down. Compare that to spawning with a P47, deleting several tanks with HVARs and then still having a fighter that can secure air-superiority.

Most US fighters are unmaneuverable compared to other nations', especially strike fighters like the P-47.

Every nation except Britain gets jets before the US does.

Germany additionally has fully armored SPAAs which make US strafing useless.

Germany, Russia, and Japan have better air superiority fighters than the US due to better low altitude performance and better turning.

6 hours ago, IronVader501 said:

And then why exactly does everyone I know who plays the brits haverschiedenen absolutely broken winrates ? I have seen guys playing 25 games with the Brits at Tier IV in row, and not losing single one. Wether people want to admit it or not, the Brits have absolutely ZERO problems competition in Tier IV.

At Tier IV, British medium and heavy tanks have the fastest fire rates, beaten only by US light tanks which have weaker rounds. They make up for their low post-pen damage with higher RoF which allows them to ammorack more easily.

6 hours ago, IronVader501 said:

Single Premium vehicle that will always be alone because there are no mediums to back it up, and a vehicle that can't drive up any kind of height without losing 90% of it's speed, if it can go up that Hill at all.

Do you think American light tanks always have medium tanks backing them up?

American Tier IV light tanks can barely climb up slopes, unlike the Ru251.

American light tanks also have very poor firepower for their BRs, with 200mm pen HEAT-FS and 232mm pen @ point blank APDS at 6.7 BR unlike the Ru251 which has 320mm pen HEAT-FS and 102mm pen HESH at 6.7.

  • Upvote 3
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

people think heat-fs is actually good on the m46

 

oh wow, the m46 can now penetrate enemy tanks reliably, with little damage in most cases

 

yet every enemy it faces can 1 shot it from any distance any angle

  • Upvote 1
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Xnetexe said:

And the IS-1 and Tiger E/H1 are also Tier III tanks.

And they are still easier to take out frontally than a Jumbo or Churchill (Which has less turretarmor than a Jumbo)

22 hours ago, Xnetexe said:

And both the T29 and T34 have a laughably lower survivability than a Tiger II when they cannot cover their LFP. Russian 100mm+ cannons and the German 88mm KwK43 cannon can easily penetrate the parts of the hull that aren't covered in tracks with APHE whereas US 90mm APHE cannot penetrate Tiger II's turret cheeks.

And how many Medium tanks at 6.3 or 6.7 have the KwK 43 ? None.

22 hours ago, Xnetexe said:

Tiger II uses Rolled Homogeneous armor. The T29/34 uses Cast Homogeneous armor. Cast Homogeneous is weaker than Rolled Homogeneous.

The Tiger IIs turretarmor is stated as RHA; but its weaker than shown in the viewer. The actual armor thickness is somewhere between 170 and 175mm of armor. Thats much weaker than the T29s CHA 200mm, and even if they turret would have 185mm of effective armor, it would still be weaker.

22 hours ago, Xnetexe said:

Germany, Russia, and Japan have better air superiority fighters than the US due to better low altitude performance and better turning.

And none of them can double in a CAS role, unlike pretty much ANY US-fighter.

22 hours ago, Xnetexe said:

American light tanks also have very poor firepower for their BRs, with 200mm pen HEAT-FS and 232mm pen @ point blank APDS at 6.7 BR unlike the Ru251 which has 320mm pen HEAT-FS and 102mm pen HESH at 6.7.

The Ru is a tank that, and you can ask anyone who plays Germany, should have never been added they way it has been. Everyone thought this thing should be atleast 7.3, and thats still the standpoint of most. Thats a bad decision by Gaijin, and you won't find anyone that supports it in the Community.

22 hours ago, Xnetexe said:

Do you think American light tanks always have medium tanks backing them up?

No, but their is a higher possibility that they will have atleast another light tank to back it up, because the US atleast has enough in the normal TT at that BR, and the same goes for Mediums.

  • Upvote 4
medal medal medal medal medal medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ChristianRG said:

Why is the Panther II at 7.0?

That's your answer.

 

Better frontal armor.

65mm more pen with APHE.

Faster reload.

Decent mobility and gun handling.

  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.