BlackNid

HESH can pen higher than stated?

So i'm grinding up the British tank tree and have been looking at what i can expect from the higher BR tanks. I am really looking forward to using HESH, but am a bit confused. The tiger II tanks have a front plate of 150 mm. The British 105 mm HESH has an AP of 127 mm. But, it can apparently pen the front of a tiger II. From the videos i have seen, in AB in this situation, the pen indicator actually flashes red/green, so, can HESH shells actually pen thicker armor than it is stated they can?

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Are those videos from before the nerf? 105mm squash head could break 150mm armor back then.

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32 minutes ago, BlackNid said:

So i'm grinding up the British tank tree and have been looking at what i can expect from the higher BR tanks. I am really looking forward to using HESH, but am a bit confused. The tiger II tanks have a front plate of 150 mm. The British 105 mm HESH has an AP of 127 mm. But, it can apparently pen the front of a tiger II. From the videos i have seen, in AB in this situation, the pen indicator actually flashes red/green, so, can HESH shells actually pen thicker armor than it is stated they can?

HESH has a +/- 20% RNG modifier, so with 127mm of listed pen it could end up with 152mm, or 101mm, or anything in between.

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Careful though, sometimes it can't defeat armour values that are lower than it's stated effectiveness by quite a large degree in the Chieftain's case

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On 7/6/2017 at 6:22 AM, ADrunkMoth said:

HESH has a +/- 20% RNG modifier, so with 127mm of listed pen it could end up with 152mm, or 101mm, or anything in between.

 

On 7/6/2017 at 6:04 PM, SneakySausage said:

Also ignores angling in armour 

 

Basically this explains it all. 

 

HESH needs fixing (as well as any HE filled shell).

 

- First of, HESH should get rid of that modifier, there was a reasonable amount of maximum of +-5% RNG made by Bellezza user in one thread.

- every HE filled shell, including HESH, should get rid of secondary fragments being able to penetrate tanks

- HESH hitting a gun should imho damage the gun, user should not be able to fire before fixing, right now, hitting a gun does nothing to gun, but secondary fragments pen upper glacis and blowing up ammo beside driver

 

That way, HESH is fixed and remains powerful as it should be.

Edited by Phelpsiee
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On 27/07/2017 at 10:07 AM, Phelpsiee said:

 

 

Basically this explains it all. 

 

HESH needs fixing (as well as any HE filled shell).

 

- First of, HESH should get rid of that modifier, there was a reasonable amount of maximum of +-5% RNG made by Bellezza user in one thread.

- every HE filled shell, including HESH, should get rid of secondary fragments being able to penetrate tanks

- HESH hitting a gun should imho damage the gun, user should not be able to fire before fixing, right now, hitting a gun does nothing to gun, but secondary fragments pen upper glacis and blowing up ammo beside driver

 

That way, HESH is fixed and remains powerful as it should be.

 

hesh and shrapnel are one and the same,you can't have one without the other,it's how hesh works

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31 minutes ago, patchedupdemon said:

 

hesh and shrapnel are one and the same,you can't have one without the other,it's how hesh works

 

The round doesn't have it's own shrapnel component like a pure HE shell does. HESH relies on explosive force breaking shrapnel off the internal face of armour plates- in game it's modelled as an HE shell with penetration, meaning it has it's own shrapnel like a regular HE shell. 

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On 7/28/2017 at 6:54 PM, patchedupdemon said:

 

hesh and shrapnel are one and the same,you can't have one without the other,it's how hesh works

 

*sigh*

 

I hate, when people are not reading thoroughly. 

HESH works by squashing plastic high explosive on the armor, creating pancake-like layer. Said explosive is detonated via fuse on the armor.

Explosion, that happens creates two things:

 

  • spalling inside the armor, thanks to the layer exploding on the armor, spalling is secondary shrapnel
  • shell fragments (or whatever "weak" is close to the explosion, e.g. tool box) that are blown in every other direction (bits of the round, bits of outside armor)

 

HESH is created mainly for the first point, that works in the game.

Second one, those shell shrapnels are of course real too, but in War Thunder, they are able to pen thick armor, because they are badly modelled.

Every HE shell fragments are able to do so, but they never do have any real velocity or size to pen anything. I am not talking about removing them, I am talking about removing their false ability to penetrate thick armors.

 

On 7/27/2017 at 11:07 AM, Phelpsiee said:

- every HE filled shell, including HESH, should get rid of shell fragments being able to penetrate tanks

 

And that's what I am talking about and has to be fixed.

 

I created even picture to make it more clear, even though it's 2D. Epic paint skills. 

This is not happening only on the gun, you may hit something next to the tank and the shell shrapnell will pen the turret for example. 

I do not think, that shell shrapnell has any physical velocity nor size to pen that and on top of that, explode the ammo rack.

 

tank.png

Edited by Phelpsiee
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4 hours ago, Phelpsiee said:

-stuff-

tank.png

Ferdinand :D

 

Btw those fragments tends to break barrels also. Shoot thick front plate, inside is fine but fragments break barrel.

 

 

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This is from AD001531 Page 243(252 of the pdf).  It shows that the current in game values are 90% back spall success rate values.  Technically with that in consideration there shouldn't be a -20% RNG variable, maybe -5% at the most. 

 

For example, 90% success for 120mm is 6in or 152.4mm, upper limit is 7in or 177.8mm which would result in a 16.6% variance in max pen ability for 120mm HESH, where 7in would be the ~50% success value.  The 105mm has a 90% success value of 5in or 127mm, and an upper limit of 6in, which results in a 20% variance.  The 6in upper limit also matches what some other documents list for 105mm HESH for standard NATO 50% success vs Single Heavy Targets aka 150mm at 60deg obliquity.  90mm HESH has a base 90% of 4in or 101.6mm and an upper limit of 127mm or 25% variance. And if 76mm HESH ever gets added, 3in or 76.2mm at 90% and 4in or 101.6mm upper limit or a 33% variance. 

 

BI0RHAJ.jpg

 

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Guys, a HESH round isn't just a big blob of plastic explosive with a fuze stuck into the back of it. It's a big blob of plastic explosive that's in a steel shell that's thick enough not only to withstand the rigors of being launched down a rifled cannon barrel at ungodly accelerations, hold together against the centrifugal force from spinning at high revolutions, and then expanding against the target in a controlled way that leaves the HE forming the pancake of the shape that they want. That steel casing is still going to fragment, and those fragments are going to travel more or less in a direction normal to the face of the explosive it is in contact with when it detonates. For the back part of the shell, there are parts that will be traveling downwards, and you know that the deck armor of most of these tanks is fairly thin. There's no reason to think that these fragments wouldn't be large enough and traveling fast enough to penetrate that deck armor and go down into the tank. 

Look at this illustration of a cross section of a HESH round. Look at all that steel casing that's going to frag out away from the shell as it explodes. 

Just eyeballing this with a ruler held to the screen and then doing some math it looks to me like the casing toward the rear of the HESH round, still the part surrounding the HE filler, looks to be at least 5-8mm in thickness. That would create some real high velocity fragments that may only have to pen 60-80mm of deck armor, depending on the tank. I don't think this is as unrealistic as people think.

 

HESH round illustration.jpg

Edited by Sethbag
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Main problem with HESH is its not unidirectional, it's splashing like HE right now. It should probably be more consistent on how much it pens but also only be unidirectional. So like +/- 5% RNG (20% at the moment? I think) but only in front of  where it hits

Edited by inset_judgement
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14 minutes ago, inset_judgement said:

Main problem with HESH is its not unidirectional, it's splashing like HE right now. It should probably be more consistent on how much it pens but also only be unidirectional. So like +/- 5% RNG (20% at the moment? I think) but only in front of  where it hits

 

What do you mean when you say it's splashing like HE right now, as if this is a problem? A HESH round is an HE round. In fact, it contains more HE than a conventional HE round. Of course it's going to splash out and damage things nearby with blast effects (if they're close enough) and frag effects.

Look at this info on the British L21 A1 120mm HESH round.

 

The complete round weighs 17.86kg, of which 4.1kg comprises the HE filler, and the remaining 13.75kg is everything else, primarily the steel casing. Every single gram of that steel casing is going to frag out away from the point of detonation, and you can be pretty darn sure that frag is going at very high velocity. The fragments won't be as massive as the frag from the thicker casing of a conventional HE round because the HESH casing is thinner, but they will be traveling at a higher velocity. Energy from frag drops really quickly with distance because they're not very aerodynamic, but we're talking about very short distances here, especially to parts on the same tank that the round impacted. In the particular example of a HESH round hitting the side of a gun barrel, above the top deck armor of tank, there will be parts of the HESH round's casing pointed downwards at this relatively thin deck armor when the round detonates, and you can be sure that the fragments that strike the deck armor will be doing so at hyper velocity. You don't want to be standing nearby when that goes off.

I'm not sure I can agree with the concerns being expressed here.

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6 hours ago, Sethbag said:

 

What do you mean when you say it's splashing like HE right now, as if this is a problem? A HESH round is an HE round. In fact, it contains more HE than a conventional HE round. Of course it's going to splash out and damage things nearby with blast effects (if they're close enough) and frag effects.

Look at this info on the British L21 A1 120mm HESH round.

 

The complete round weighs 17.86kg, of which 4.1kg comprises the HE filler, and the remaining 13.75kg is everything else, primarily the steel casing. Every single gram of that steel casing is going to frag out away from the point of detonation, and you can be pretty darn sure that frag is going at very high velocity. The fragments won't be as massive as the frag from the thicker casing of a conventional HE round because the HESH casing is thinner, but they will be traveling at a higher velocity. Energy from frag drops really quickly with distance because they're not very aerodynamic, but we're talking about very short distances here, especially to parts on the same tank that the round impacted. In the particular example of a HESH round hitting the side of a gun barrel, above the top deck armor of tank, there will be parts of the HESH round's casing pointed downwards at this relatively thin deck armor when the round detonates, and you can be sure that the fragments that strike the deck armor will be doing so at hyper velocity. You don't want to be standing nearby when that goes off.

I'm not sure I can agree with the concerns being expressed here.

 

HESH creates spalling outside of armor, like an exploding HE shell would. The fragments a HESH shell generates are pieces of the armor itself. If HESH hits a turret, no fragments should be shot down onto the hull roof. HESH acts like a super HE shell, generating high penetrating fragments that come from the shell itself, not the armor. I've been killed by HESH hitting the mantlet and shrapnel going through the hull roof and hitting ammo. That isn't how HESH works.

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7 hours ago, inset_judgement said:

Main problem with HESH is its not unidirectional, it's splashing like HE right now. It should probably be more consistent on how much it pens but also only be unidirectional. So like +/- 5% RNG (20% at the moment? I think) but only in front of  where it hits

 

A HESH explosion is not unidirectional though.....    heck even a HEAT explosion is not unidirectional - where did you get the idea that you can have a unidirectional explosions from??

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More pages from the document I showed above about HESH/HEP.

Coverpage 242page 244

 

gsFMTFw.jpg0OMdvDQ.jpg

 

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Great stuff :good:

Edited by Josephs_Piano
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29 minutes ago, Josephs_Piano said:

 

A HESH explosion is not unidirectional though.....    heck even a HEAT explosion is not unidirectional - where did you get the idea that you can have a unidirectional explosions from??

 

Some HEAT rounds that don't require a thick-walled casing even surround the explosive with a fragmentation sleeve specifically so that when it goes off it not only creates the jet that slices through the armor in front of it, but also generates enhanced levels of frag compared to conventional HEAT rounds in order to maximize damage to other things (or people) near the point of impact. The 40mm improved munition grenade is a good example of this.

Spin-stabilized, relatively high-velocity (compared to RPGs, 40mm grenades, etc.) HESH rounds don't really need an additional frag sleeve because they already have a fairly thick steel case that will generate high-energy fragments when they detonate.

 

37 minutes ago, *MiseryIndex556 said:

 

HESH creates spalling outside of armor, like an exploding HE shell would. The fragments a HESH shell generates are pieces of the armor itself. If HESH hits a turret, no fragments should be shot down onto the hull roof. HESH acts like a super HE shell, generating high penetrating fragments that come from the shell itself, not the armor. I've been killed by HESH hitting the mantlet and shrapnel going through the hull roof and hitting ammo. That isn't how HESH works.

You are mistaking the HESH rounds' primary effect on a tank as its only effect, when it is not. The primary effect of a HESH round you're aware of, ie: the spalling of armor plate into the fighting compartment by the shock wave reflecting off the back surface of the armor. You are neglecting the secondary effects. These include that several kg of HE has just detonated on the outside surface of the tank. That's a non-trivial amount of HE, and anything very close to it is liable to being damaged purely by the blast effects themselves. You are also neglecting the fact that the HESH round is a steel vessel containing HE, and this steel vessel itself will fragment from the detonation and blow outwards in a direction more or less normal to the surface of the explosive material it was in contact with. For the parts of the underside of the shell that strikes the turret face, for instance, that means that frag will be generated flying downward and impacting the deck armor.
 

Any material blown off the outside of the armor plate, plus the material of the steel shell casing itself, plus anything else on the tank that is blown off by the blast effects will all be propelled outward from the explosion site and is liable to damage or kill anything it comes into contact with. In the case of a HESH round impacting the face of a turret on a tank where the explosion occurs probably less than a meter above the relatively thin deck armor of the tank, this frag will impact that deck armor, and if it is thin enough, it may penetrate it.

Look at the diagrams of the HESH rounds that Conraire and I posted. Notice the shell thickness, getting quite thick in fact toward the rear of the round. This is steel. When the HE it's containing detonates, this steel casing is going to fragment and go flying out in pieces.

Check out this low-tech diagram of the situation. My Microsoft Paint skills weren't up to the task, so I got all old-fashioned and used a fountain pen on paper to create this wonderous work of both science and art. :DD It illlustrates not only the spall created from the rear face of the turret armor flying into the fighting compartment of the tank, but also the pattern of fragmentation emanating from the HESH shell itself at the moment of detonation. Notice that some of that frag is going down directly into the relatively thin deck armor.

You and I have probably both experienced our deck armor being penetrated by 30mm AP rounds fired at angles from CAS planes in this game penetrating the deck armor and killing the tank. I'm not sure why you think that fragments of the HESH shell casing impacting the deck armor at much higher velocities than these 30mm rounds would be incapable of doing the same.

20170815_205010.jpg

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1 hour ago, Sethbag said:

You are mistaking the HESH rounds' primary effect on a tank as its only effect, when it is not. The primary effect of a HESH round you're aware of, ie: the spalling of armor plate into the fighting compartment by the shock wave reflecting off the back surface of the armor. You are neglecting the secondary effects. These include that several kg of HE has just detonated on the outside surface of the tank. That's a non-trivial amount of HE, and anything very close to it is liable to being damaged purely by the blast effects themselves. You are also neglecting the fact that the HESH round is a steel vessel containing HE, and this steel vessel itself will fragment from the detonation and blow outwards in a direction more or less normal to the surface of the explosive material it was in contact with. For the parts of the underside of the shell that strikes the turret face, for instance, that means that frag will be generated flying downward and impacting the deck armor.
 

Any material blown off the outside of the armor plate, plus the material of the steel shell casing itself, plus anything else on the tank that is blown off by the blast effects will all be propelled outward from the explosion site and is liable to damage or kill anything it comes into contact with. In the case of a HESH round impacting the face of a turret on a tank where the explosion occurs probably less than a meter above the relatively thin deck armor of the tank, this frag will impact that deck armor, and if it is thin enough, it may penetrate it.

Look at the diagrams of the HESH rounds that Conraire and I posted. Notice the shell thickness, getting quite thick in fact toward the rear of the round. This is steel. When the HE it's containing detonates, this steel casing is going to fragment and go flying out in pieces.

Check out this low-tech diagram of the situation. My Microsoft Paint skills weren't up to the task, so I got all old-fashioned and used a fountain pen on paper to create this wonderous work of both science and art. :DD It illlustrates not only the spall created from the rear face of the turret armor flying into the fighting compartment of the tank, but also the pattern of fragmentation emanating from the HESH shell itself at the moment of detonation. Notice that some of that frag is going down directly into the relatively thin deck armor.

You and I have probably both experienced our deck armor being penetrated by 30mm AP rounds fired at angles from CAS planes in this game penetrating the deck armor and killing the tank. I'm not sure why you think that fragments of the HESH shell casing impacting the deck armor at much higher velocities than these 30mm rounds would be incapable of doing the same.

 

 

I'm aware that the shell case would create fragments but it is relatively thin. The fragments would be small and light, not great for penetrating armor. 

 

Here is a cross section of an HE shell for comparison.

 cuthe.jpg

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14 hours ago, Sethbag said:

-all snips of yours-

 

At least you managed to describe it better than I did and I also thank you for your input. :good:

 

But I still disagree those fragments would be capable of penning upper glacis. You are talking about fragments of certain size, velocity, but what about a shape? I suspect fragment falling flat on the armor does nothing, it would be a luck to actually achieve some fragment to have certain velocity, size and shape, you just can't tell me that every blast would create perfect fragment being capable of penning (more importantly, OHKing with 100% efficiency).. Yet HESH squashing against the mantlet kills tanks 10 out of 10 times. If anything, HESH primary effect should have only -5% RNG and those fragments should get at least -50% to -100% RNG, but I don't know from what would this RNG could be counted, because I don't feel like documents talks about fragment ability to pen.

 

And you are talking about deck armor, but this also happens on fairly thick armor of upper and lower glacis, try shooting in front of the tank on the ground, just below lower glacis. Those fragments pen even lower glacis of a heavy tank. Also, try hitting a gun and watch fragments travel the frontal upper glacis armor, which you also drew in your picture and watch the tank go kaboom. 

I agree fragments can damage stuff, but HESH fragments damages stuff always and even thick stuff, so that's why I disagree with your statements.

 

All HE filled ammunition has weird post-fragmentation capable of OHKing tanks.

 

Just look at this:

 

 

Edited by Phelpsiee
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52 minutes ago, *MiseryIndex556 said:

 

I'm aware that the shell case would create fragments but it is relatively thin. The fragments would be small and light, not great for penetrating armor. 

 

Here is a cross section of an HE shell for comparison.

 cuthe.jpg

 

I bolded the important part of your first sentence. The walls of the HESH rounds are relatively thin in the sense that they are thinner than the walls of conventional HE rounds. They are not thin, though. If you look at those diagrams I linked it's pretty clear that towards the rear of the HE section of the HESH round is probably a good 8mm thick or so on the British one, and if you look at US HEP designs it appears to be even thicker. 8mm hardened steel casing will create amazingly energetic fragments when propelled by a very large HE charge using a very brisant explosive like RDX.

 

I found a doc somewhere (a barely legible scan from decades ago) where the USAF studied initial velocities of fragments from bombs and shells and found that with a TNT filling, at explosive mass to total weight ratio of typical bombs they saw up to over 6000 ft/s (over 2000 m/s), and they indicated that as the ratio of explosive to metal weight increases, the initial velocity increases. Not only do HESH rounds use a far more brisant explosive than TNT (much faster explosive propagation speed), they also have higher ratios of explosive mass to metal mass, so we can assume the fragments of these HESH casings will be traveling significantly more quickly than the fragments from the TNT charges the USAF tested. If you don't think 8mm thick chunks of hardened steel frag traveling 2000-3000 m/s could penetrate a 50mm thick deck armor I think you need to think again. These are velocities that are at last 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 times the muzzle velocity of 30mm AP rounds, and we know that kinetic energy goes up as the square of the velocity, so a chunk of frag of equivalent mass to a 30mm AP round would carry somewhere between six and twelve times as much energy.

I think you have your mind set on this notion that HESH rounds have thin(ner) casings and therefor can't produce frag worthy of consideration, but I don't think reality backs you up on this.

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You are still ignoring my input, that those fragments pen even fairly thick armors in this game. You also forget, that penetration like this, if it were to happen, takes a lot of the energy from the fragment, I suspect it would be nowhere near to actually OHK tank 10/10 times (penetration is one thing, doing some actual damage is another). That's what is at stake here. That's what we talk about.

If it were the case, why didn't the infantry just unholster their 8mms with max of 1000m/s velocity and point blank shoot thin armors of the tank? Tank commandos, hehe. Also bit of a sarcasm too.

 

I will give you the benefit of admiting some pen could happen. But 100% pen with 100% OHK, which game currently depicts? No. 

 

Also this post of yours can be dismissed by many on these forums (which I won't do) as a guesstimate, since no document actually cares to enlighten us about HESH's fragmentation abilities.

 

EDIT: Ah, you replied with second post below, sorry mate. :good:

Edited by Phelpsiee
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2 hours ago, Phelpsiee said:

 

At least you managed to describe it better than I did and I also thank you for your input. :good:

 

But I still disagree those fragments would be capable of penning upper glacis. You are talking about fragments of certain size, velocity, but what about a shape? I suspect fragment falling flat on the armor does nothing, it would be a luck to actually achieve some fragment to have certain velocity, size and shape, you just can't tell me that every blast would create perfect fragment being capable of penning (more importantly, OHKing with 100% efficiency).. Yet HESH squashing against the mantlet kills tanks 10 out of 10 times. If anything, HESH primary effect should have only -5% RNG and those fragments should get at least -50% to -100% RNG, but I don't know from what would this RNG could be counted, because I don't feel like documents talks about fragment ability to pen.

 

And you are talking about deck armor, but this also happens on fairly thick armor of upper and lower glacis, try shooting in front of the tank on the ground, just below lower glacis. Those fragments pen even lower glacis of a heavy tank. Also, try hitting a gun and watch fragments travel the frontal upper glacis armor, which you also drew in your picture and watch the tank go kaboom. 

I agree fragments can damage stuff, but HESH fragments damages stuff always and even thick stuff, so that's why I disagree with your statements.

 

All HE filled ammunition has weird post-fragmentation capable of OHKing tanks.

 

 

I'm talking about deck armor not upper glacis, but it also depends on the upper glacis. A lot of tanks have relatively thin glacis plates highly angled, but to frag coming down from a gun barrel hit they may be pretty close to 90 degrees, so their thickness really matters. I agree that frag from a HESH round probably shouldn't pen through a really thick heavy tank upper glacis plate, but the deck armor is another story. And if the tank has any deck armor in front of the turret then a mantle hit by a HESH round will be sending its frag down through the deck.

I also agree that some frag effects in this game are wonky. I had a Russian tank's APHE round pen the toolbox on the side of one of my Centurions the other day and explode inside the toolbox (outside of the turret armor) and the frag from it penned the side of the turret and wiped out my crew. I question that for two reasons. One is that I'm not sure the toolbox was thick enough to have set off the fuze of the round in the first place. The second reason is that frag from an APHE round is a different story from frag from a HESH round energywise. APHE rounds have very thick, beefy casings and very small (relatively speaking) HE fillings. Breaking up the back end of a really thick casing with 100 or 200g of HE would not generate the kinds of fragment velocities that breaking up a thinner casing with 4.7kg of HE would produce. The APHE explosive effect is meant to produce casualty-producing frag inside a tank, not armor-piercing frag outside a tank. An exploding APHE round inside a tank is somewhat akin to punching a hole in the tank and then lobbing in a large grenade.

If you haven't already done so, I recommend doing some reading up on shaped charges, both the typical HEAT-type ones that use the Munroe effect, and the Misnay-Schardin effect ones like EFPs (explosively formed penetrators). These can penetrate hundreds of milimeters of RHA. While they are typically focused in ways that a chunk of frag from the casing of a HESH round isn't, the velocity range is similar, meaning similar kinetic energies per mass of the piece of metal. We're not asking it to pen 600mm of RHA here - I'm only trying to show that in theory penning a 50 or 60mm deck armor after a mantlet strike isn't unreasonable.

 

Here's an interesting read on the effects of artillery on armor. I'm mindful of the fact that these artillery and other HE rounds show frag strikes from thicker shell casings, but they are also lower velocity chunks of frag because the ratio of explosive mass to shell casing mass is a lot lower.

Anyhow, the only two things I'm trying to accomplish here are defeating the idea that HESH rounds should only do damage in one direction, by means of one effect, that being the spall inside the tank. I disagree with that. The other is thing is to hopefully demonstrate that penning relatively thin deck armor under the mantlet is probably doable with the thickness of frag chunks from a HESH round driven to Ludicrous Speed by the huge HE filler.

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