Bomber Gunners in Sim

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,228]

3 hours ago, Omarb13legends said:

Your right, and how long has this game been out? If it's that detrimentally bad Gajin would of fixed something or did something by now right, no  they have not.  And, no I don't play Sim in War thunder because why bother when I can play il2 series games. Tons of practice there approaching bombers differently and strategically, I'm just saying that in WarThunder I notice players don't take that same type of approach and go for the more generic way of engaging them. And I didn't say I did not understand how the gunners view and aiming abilities is broken, but once again almost a decade everyone's talked about this and no actions has been taken. How much longer are we going to on about this. 

 

This would only be true if there was only a sim mode. 

 

This issue is more comlex. the gamemoes share some mechanice and the gunner mechanics is one of those. So decoupling the gunner mechanics in SIM from those in AB/RB might not be easy and quite a considerably amount of work. Since AB/RB has way bigger playerbases, there is no financial incentive to do so even if it's a big problem in SIM, simply because it causes no problem in AB/RB.

 

So as an argument why this isn't a big issue, this is useless.

[_Mics_ 49]

I agree that yes it is a business and expenses need to be covered, as well as the fact that we are the minority of players. However, if there is a will there is a way, simplest of all fixes is taking out the 3pp gunner view as well as the autopilot functions while in full-real controls mode. This would only affect sim either ground or air.

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,228]

9 hours ago, _Mics_ said:

I agree that yes it is a business and expenses need to be covered, as well as the fact that we are the minority of players. However, if there is a will there is a way, simplest of all fixes is taking out the 3pp gunner view as well as the autopilot functions while in full-real controls mode. This would only affect sim either ground or air.

 

This might not be a simple fix. If this mechanic is one of the fundemantal mechanics of WT that all gamemodes shar it needs an entire rework and replacement to make it gamemode specific. Since you can only shut it off for a specific gamemode if the mechanic is specific to that mode... 3rd personngunners sadly are not.

 

A simpler solution is to disable the key that lets you switch into that view. We already have the ability to force different controls in a gamemode.

[_Mics_ 49]

It would work exactly the same as the "Show lead" option in the menu, it won't work in any other mode other than AB regardless if you have it switched on or not. 

[esapekkis 2,659]

15 hours ago, Omarb13legends said:

Your right, and how long has this game been out? If it's that detrimentally bad Gajin would of fixed something or did something by now right, no  they have not.  And, no I don't play Sim in War thunder because why bother when I can play il2 series games. Tons of practice there approaching bombers differently and strategically, I'm just saying that in WarThunder I notice players don't take that same type of approach and go for the more generic way of engaging them. And I didn't say I did not understand how the gunners view and aiming abilities is broken, but once again almost a decade everyone's talked about this and no actions has been taken. How much longer are we going to on about this. 

 

There has actually been several adjustments made to bombers during the years. And if you really want to know how much longer people are going to talk about the arcade bombers in SB mode: as long as they stay in their stupid AB condition.

 

I mean, just look at my game from today

Spoiler

 

Such Fun GamePlay, Much WoW.....Is it really a big mystery why SB players (both new and old ones) continue to bring the same things up again and again year after a year? But all we need to do is engage them correctly and we will have no problems right?!

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by esapekkis

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,228]

1 hour ago, _Mics_ said:

It would work exactly the same as the "Show lead" option in the menu, it won't work in any other mode other than AB regardless if you have it switched on or not. 

 

You would need the code infrastructure for that though for it to be optional. That is why it is easier to build an option to just disable the "switch to gunner view" button functionality than to remove the entire gunner mechanics from sim. 

 

The result might be the same but the workload to implement the change is vastly different.

[_Mics_ 49]

I cannot be sure about the coding/development part as that is not my field, my argument is that there are examples that work in a similar fashion which is enough proof that there is a way, what's absent is the will.

[Lieutenant_Camel 622]

3 hours ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

You would need the code infrastructure for that though for it to be optional. That is why it is easier to build an option to just disable the "switch to gunner view" button functionality than to remove the entire gunner mechanics from sim. 

 

The result might be the same but the workload to implement the change is vastly different.

Tell that to a GTA V developer. he rebuilds it during his lunch break.

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,228]

1 hour ago, _Mics_ said:

I cannot be sure about the coding/development part as that is not my field, my argument is that there are examples that work in a similar fashion which is enough proof that there is a way, what's absent is the will.

 

Well... Technically it isn't a similar fashion the way you described it would completely remove the third person view gunners. While the other more easier way to implement would just make it unavailable. 

 

For the players it eould be pretty much the same. The workload for the Developers is vastly different though.

 

 

 

24 minutes ago, Lieutenant_Camel said:

Tell that to a GTA V developer. he rebuilds it during his lunch break.

 

I cannot think of an example were a mechanic was fundamentally changed in gta V. Haven't played it much though.

 

My point was that they way you want to fix 3rd person gunners should be presented/suggested in a way that it is little work for the developer since SIM is low on their priority list. And wanting a change that changes core mechanics that aren't gamemode specific is a lot of work. Removing 3rd person gunners is a much more work than just making it unavailable to the players while having the same result.

[Lieutenant_Camel 622]

7 hours ago, DerGrafVonZahl said:

 

Well... Technically it isn't a similar fashion the way you described it would completely remove the third person view gunners. While the other more easier way to implement would just make it unavailable. 

 

For the players it eould be pretty much the same. The workload for the Developers is vastly different though.

 

 

 

 

I cannot think of an example were a mechanic was fundamentally changed in gta V. Haven't played it much though.

 

My point was that they way you want to fix 3rd person gunners should be presented/suggested in a way that it is little work for the developer since SIM is low on their priority list. And wanting a change that changes core mechanics that aren't gamemode specific is a lot of work. Removing 3rd person gunners is a much more work than just making it unavailable to the players while having the same result.

 

it is not much work for a good programmer. a DCS or an IL-2 progammer quickly converted it.

[DerGrafVonZahl 4,228]

2 hours ago, Lieutenant_Camel said:

 

it is not much work for a good programmer. a DCS or an IL-2 progammer quickly converted it.

 

Lol. I think you underestimate the task at hand.

 

If you remove the third person gunner view, then you need to replace the mechanic entirely. The new mechanic needs a simplification overlay for AB RB... Similar to the instructor for the base controls. Also it will have some dependencies so there is a lot of potential for bugs occuring.

 

Again disabling the button would be far easier.

[_Exodus__ 64]

Hello all. This topic has some fascinating points. 

 

I understand the frustrations of pilots fighting bombers with their third person views. It's not realistic, which is what sim is all about. 

 

You know what is also unrealistic? Planes being piloted by one guy, who runs around inside the plane between the guns and the pilot seat which is what limiting the view to the gunners FOV would be like. 

 

It's hard to represent to a single controlling player the reality of six or eight humans in a flying tin can, all with radios calling out the planes they can see in their fire arcs or out the observation windows. Maybe the third person view is actually a pragmatically reasonable representation of that? 

 

In the spirit of providing suggestions and ideas instead of just comments, a more realistic approach could be :

 

Gunner view is as close to realistic as is practical for each gun position - simple box cutout for belly guns, blister turret views for roof and nose guns, ball turret views for then etc. 

Gunners have a traverse rate for their guns just like tank turrets, and free look capability a well, to allow a roof gunner to spot a plane without having to slew the turret around.  Traverse rates would be fastest for belly guns. 

 

The gunner view is complemented by small versions of all the _other_ gunner views across the top of the screen, or side/ bottom etc depending on where in the plane they are, including the pilot's view. These views flash red when an enemy plane is spotted in the field of view of that position. Maybe the radio calls out too for extra realism '10 o'clock high' etc. The views go black when the gunner is knocked out. 

 

Detection of planes for the gunners would be scaled by the crew skills, just like it does for pilots. 

 

Tricky to add to the existing engine I'm sure, but hey we can but dream

 

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by _Exodus__
Added missing point

[_Mics_ 49]

Simulating a bomber crew would be rather easy. You fly the plane since this is what a simulator is about, AI controls the gunners and BOOM you've got the easiest of all fixes to the problem. Issues such as this have been neglected for years and have effectively driven a good chunk of the air sim player-base to more sophisticated and professionally developed simulators.

[Omarb13legends 11]

On 07/01/2022 at 04:36, esapekkis said:

 

There has actually been several adjustments made to bombers during the years. And if you really want to know how much longer people are going to talk about the arcade bombers in SB mode: as long as they stay in their stupid AB condition.

 

I mean, just look at my game from today

Reveal hidden contents

 

Such Fun GamePlay, Much WoW.....Is it really a big mystery why SB players (both new and old ones) continue to bring the same things up again and again year after a year? But all we need to do is engage them correctly and we will have no problems right?!

 

Reveal hidden contents

 

 

So was that last sentence sarcasm..? Or did you genuinely mean that.

[melc311 240]

On 07/01/2022 at 10:36, esapekkis said:

 

 

 

Hide contents

 

 

>sir, our wing just got ripped off and we are entering an unrecoverable stall, time to bail out

>wait wait wait I have to shoot the plane that just shot us down

>nonsense, there's no way to even aim those guns while we are spinning in 3 directions at once , get your parachute and bail out now!

>i got this, don't worry * bam bam bam*

>Target Destroyed

 

Simulator Battles

Edited February 4 by melc311

[Harlz2123 40]

Bomber tail-gunners are an issue, and I am so sick of this community screaming "SKILL ISSUE" or some variant every time someone brings it up.

 

Here are my main issues.

1. I fly a lot of bombers in SIM cause it makes good RP, I will usually get more kills in a heavily armed because it's MUCH easier to gunship in a bomber with third person then aim in a fighter, also a bomber can eat tons of shots (unless it's one of the jank ones with a broken flight model) and a fighter is often doomed from just a short burst hitting their engine. If I want to farm air-kills, my go to is the b-25j, it does it so much better than any fighter and I feel dirty flying it.

2. Even if I die, because there is ZERO penalty to accuracy on an out of control, burning, destroyed plane I can often get a kill after being shot down by using the tail-gunners as the enemy flies past me. Bombers should not be able to use tail-guns after dying, period. I don't care if you have arguments on "well technically it COULD-" no, shut up. It's not a good game mechanic, it does not work, and they should not try to balance dead planes.

3. Even if I am not shooting with the guns, just having a third person view makes it so easy to spot incoming targets. Often by the time a fighter is within gun range I have already had plenty of time to spot them, prepare, and get ready to fire and you can't get jump on bombers.

4. I am glad to see that repair prices have been reduced on some aircraft and that b-17's are flyable again (not costing 30k every time they die), most fighters at 6.0 and above still cost above 10k to spawn in. Meaning risking a 1 for 1 trade with a bomber is just not worth it. GAIJAN THE SOLUTION IS TO LOWER FIGHTER REPAIR COST; NOT RAISE BOMBER COST IF YOU'RE READING THIS.  DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT.

5. The attrition war against bombers is impossible to win, you can shoot them down all day but eventually they'll get that base and the ticket cost of destroying a base is greater than destroying a bomber.

6. Bombers make way more cash and RP then fighters, the time it takes to intercept and shoot down a aircraft is much more time consuming then the time it takes to bomb a few bases. I can often destroy 3 bases by the time a fighter gets 1 kill.

[[email protected] 27]

@Harlz2123 currently, you can fly the plane in 3rd person view the entire time, which is ridiculous. I am in favor of 1 of 2 suggestions. Either disable 3rd person view for gunners, or disable control of gunners all together. Obviously if you disable control of the gunners, they need to be adjusted so they fire at longer ranges and communicate with you, the pilot, in some way. For example, the gunners say, “enemy 6 o’clock, 2000 meters out.” The latter suggestion would take more work on a developer. The first, well that’s just simply disabling 3rd person view.