Bomber Gunners in Sim

[Spitfire976 4]

1 hour ago, Amyel said:

We have waited LONG time just to get different temps on different maps. I wouldn't hold breath if i were you

 

But i do thank you for interesting discussion in VERY CIVILISED manner.

I think i learnt quite few things in here.

 

We have a saying here: "Hope is the last one to die". But being devil's advocate for a bit, for a free game, the thermodynamics are rather good, and gaijin at the moment is developing way too many things with their resources. I think a simple fix would be arbitrarily reduce the time for the engine to overheat.

I do thank you, you can't have a discussion without the other person, it was really interesting, I hope to see you in game.

 

 

1 hour ago, Officer_bobkills said:

Gunners are broken, they should be either AI or axis controlled (as turrets actually were in most bombers). Mouse-aim makes them way too accurate, which renders planes with gunners unplayable in SB — which is too bad as they're some of my favourites.

 

Agreed, but as I said, the major problem in my view is the fact that you can control every gunner, thus making the defensive armament way more coordinated than a actual crew and the fact that with the 3rd person view you see an enemy aircraft  when you shouldn't, allowing you to take lead and hit the aircraft passing at you even though a real gunner could never pull off that shot. 

 

1 hour ago, Officer_bobkills said:

I'm assuming you want to solve for the spring's dT

 

Not really. We were discussing how significant the momentum of the moving parts inside a gun and how much would it affect the accuracy. The calculations were really basic just to work around that point. Now I said that if you had the way that the energy is dissipated by both friction and the heat transfer you could solve for x, and have a X(t) function that would give you the position of the bolt at any given time. Maybe you could use the mass-spring-damper system with a senoidal introduction of energy( sorry if the terminology is wrong, I don't know the actual names in english) as a rough estimation. 

1 hour ago, Officer_bobkills said:

The issue actually comes to the barrel (based off reading about USAAF procedures for M2s). Prolonged firing caused too much heat to build up in the barrel and could lead to a runaway gun. As it's air cooled it doesn't cool very well (when compared to the heat generated with prolonged firing). If you want to check, grab your heat transfer book (everyone's favourite class!) and it should be like an ideal cylindrical fin (assuming the interior of the barrel is at a constant temp, which it isn't but doing it another way would be harder and this should be close enough). 

 

 Which equation are you referring ? I'm familiar with the diffusion equation from my calculus class, and in this case making x=0 the chamber, the temperature of 0 would be a senoidal function and at the barrel(L) it would be the -44 Celsius . And the temperature at t=0 would be -44 Celsius.

 

  

[Omarb13legends 11]

On 08/07/2017 at 04:53, John_Q_ said:

A temporary solution until Gaijin gets some placeholder turret models, is to lock the gunner to AI control. 

that's a dumb idea, since they don't engage until extremely close, making bombers sitting ducks. This would only do more harm than good

[LanceLynxx 503]

41 minutes ago, Omarb13legends said:

that's a dumb idea, since they don't engage until extremely close, making bombers sitting ducks. This would only do more harm than good

i don't see the harm. bombers are meant to bomb, not gunship.

 

and they were sitting ducks IRL, that's why escort fighters were developed.

Edited December 10, 2021 by LanceLynxx

[Kernow1346 1,847]

I’m sure it would be a simple thing to increase max AI gunner range to 400 m or so when they lock gunners into AI control.  Winner all round.

[Omarb13legends 11]

On 10/12/2021 at 18:31, LanceLynxx said:

i don't see the harm. bombers are meant to bomb, not gunship.

 

and they were sitting ducks IRL, that's why escort fighters were developed.

You must not realize how close, that is. What so now your going to tell me B-29s with more advanced gunners that were able to shoot from farther ranges, because of technological advancement's must succumb to this as well? Look if a p51 mustang in sim, can sit almost a kilometer back and shoot it's .50cals at a bomber, I don't see what makes it so hard that the AI, can't do the same. It's all perspective angle(not saying they should be able to shoot from 1km, but in a range above 600 meters. Gunners aren't handicapped.). Doing this would just make a meta of "gunners are handicap, long range weapons will win".  ai gunners in the IL-2 series open up way beyond that point, if you want a good game refrence. then you have to consider crew skill, some players ai crew could not be fully maxed, there turret taversity is slow (expert crew gunners in rb aren't even that good and the average player doesnt have an expert gunner crew so locking it to AI in sim would not be the way to go). Once again gunners are not handicapped, it's all from a perspective angle. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Omarb13legends

[bearchills 427]

1 hour ago, Omarb13legends said:

Look if a p51 mustang in sim, can sit almost a kilometer back and shoot

Nobody does that in SIM, because without RB mouse aim and instructor it's not even remotely effective.

1 hour ago, Omarb13legends said:

ai gunners in the IL-2 series open up way beyond that point

I find this hard to believe. But as most of my experience in that game is fighting other fighters, I can't definitively say it ain't so.

  

[Omarb13legends 11]

On 12/12/2021 at 13:29, bearchills said:

Nobody does that in SIM, because without RB mouse aim and instructor it's not even remotely effective.

I find this hard to believe. But as most of my experience in that game is fighting other fighters, I can't definitively say it ain't so.

  

Nobody? I just must be unlucky and face very experienced pilots who do it very casually...

[[email protected] 2,093]

Lock out gunner control, buff AI gunners in regards to range... done.

 

I had an annoying game last night where I was trying to spade my Seafire LF III, everyone on the other team was flying bombers and when they weren't bombing they were using their aircraft as gunships in the capture point. One particularly annoying German bomber (HE-177?) was flying around with the mobility of a fighter and spraying his guns all over the place making it impossible to approach. 

 

 

[Drusas 2,509]

2 hours ago, [email protected] said:

Lock out gunner control, buff AI gunners in regards to range... done.

 

I had an annoying game last night where I was trying to spade my Seafire LF III, everyone on the other team was flying bombers and when they weren't bombing they were using their aircraft as gunships in the capture point. One particularly annoying German bomber (HE-177?) was flying around with the mobility of a fighter and spraying his guns all over the place making it impossible to approach. 

 

 

 

Playing Sim combined battles yesterday. Had a good time vs fighters and bombing tanks. Every attack on a heavy bomber resulted in the destruction of my plane.

They get an air-spawn, 3rd person flying and arcade style gunnery controls. Hard to justify in a Sim.

[Avetorro 215]

On 12/12/2021 at 18:29, bearchills said:

Nobody does that in SIM, because without RB mouse aim and instructor it's not even remotely effective.

I find this hard to believe. But as most of my experience in that game is fighting other fighters, I can't definitively say it ain't so.

  

I can confidently say I regularly shoot down aircraft in sim from over 800m away. Just takes practice it’s not impossible. Planes like the Japanese j6k1 with 8 guns, (6 x20mm and 2 x 0.50 cal have quite a spread at that distance and a good burst from 8 guns with high explosive rounds can easily land one or two on target. 

21 minutes ago, Drusas said:

 

Playing Sim combined battles yesterday. Had a good time vs fighters and bombing tanks. Every attack on a heavy bomber resulted in the destruction of my plane.

They get an air-spawn, 3rd person flying and arcade style gunnery controls. Hard to justify in a Sim.

There should be no 3rd person in sim, defeats the whole point. Like I said earlier, I only play in VR and even using 3rd person is impossible so I only rely an the ai gunners who seem to improve the more they get used. There is a first person view in small bombers with one dorsal gun but in VR that too is just head churning as the world swings about instead of the gun which stays still! Has anyone at Gaijin even looked at the game in VR?

[Deirdre_Ambre 4,151]

Mixed battles were much better when tactical bombers weren't allowed at all. Only strike aircrafts and divebombers were enough pain for interceptors.

[Omarb13legends 11]

Okay, but my question is. Even if they made it so you could only control one turret at a time in a first person view. What makes machine gunners unable to fire from range.  I mean the b29s had newer technology that allowed them to do this effectively. And even so the "general range" a novice pilot and "rear gunner" can vary. No person is the same, and skill level differentiates between pilots and gunners, and shouldn't be locked into a "general range set"

On 23/12/2021 at 07:43, Drusas said:

 

Playing Sim combined battles yesterday. Had a good time vs fighters and bombing tanks. Every attack on a heavy bomber resulted in the destruction of my plane.

They get an air-spawn, 3rd person flying and arcade style gunnery controls. Hard to justify in a Sim.

Pilots setup planned attacks against bombers. From what your saying you moved in close and from behind, and got sprayed down. Even if gunners were "Pacified", the way you approach a bomber makes all the difference no matter how nerfed there guns is. A good burst into anything vital, can either put you instantly out of commission or hurt you in the long run. This is especially true if you are approaching a bomber or light bomber at ground level, and you get careless and don't plan a good approach and get your engine or vital component damaged. Your now at low altitude, don't have enough altitude. To effectively climb with a slowly dying engine.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Omarb13legends

[Omarb13legends 11]

17 hours ago, Deirdre_Ambre said:

Mixed battles were much better when tactical bombers weren't allowed at all. Only strike aircrafts and divebombers were enough pain for interceptors.

Interceptors are even bigger and easier targets. You have to plan your approach, what if your gonna attack a squad of 4 b17s. Big target nonetheless attacking more bigger targets defended by machine guns, even if they were nerfed, there still a high chance that they will strike something critical. Group efforts are key, and attacking simultaneously with teammates makes all the difference, there is a reason tactics were developed to attack bombers, but not many players execute it effectively, or do it very lazily. 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Omarb13legends

[Drusas 2,509]

6 minutes ago, Omarb13legends said:

Okay, but my question is. Even if they made it so you could only control one turret at a time in a first person view. What makes machine gunners unable to fire from range.  I mean the b29s had newer technology that allowed them to do this effectively. And even so the "general range" a novice pilot and "rear gunner" can vary. No person is the same, and skill level differentiates between pilots and gunners, and shouldn't be locked into a "general range set"

Pilots setup planned attacks against bombers. From what your saying you moved in close and from behind, and got sprayed down. Even if gunners were "Pacified", the way you approach a bomber makes all the difference, no matter how nerfed there guns is. A good burst into anything vital, can either put you instantly out of commission or hurt you in the long run. This is especially true if you are approaching a bomber or light bomber at ground level, and you get careless and don't plan a good approach and get your engine or vital component damaged. Your not at low altitude, don't have enough altitude. To effectively climb with a slowly dying engine.

 

No they were mainly head on attacks from beneath climbing up and also a very steep diving attack from behind. Using Japanese 30mm (the most destructive cannons in the game).

[Omarb13legends 11]

Most bombers at the time, had heavy cannons mounted in the front  or some sort of dorsal turret in the front, so there is no surprise there. Since most pilots wont' fire until they are closer, giving just as much of an equal chance for the forward turret to damage you badly.  Also if your using cannons, to attack from head on your most likely not going to fire enough shots at the cockpit to kill them effectively or efficiently (with slow firing Japanese 30mms to be exact), opposed to a burst of 12.7mgs which a single well placed shot can kill them instantly. Steep diving attacks are no exception ether, the only difference is the angle that gunners might find weird or harder to hit. Even then that's only if your attacking a lone bomber. and I'm not sure if you heard the story of A single b17 that defended itself with its gunners against zeros. A single B-17. With some modifications of extra guns littered throughout the plane (if I remember correctly) which right there proves that a single bomber can defend itself well, if the gunners or crew are motivated or skilled enough to do it.

Besides the point bombers were buffed so they don't snap and catch fire instantly so you also have that, which in all fairness makes sense. Now if you were to do this against a squad of said he 177s and you zip through them, there is  still a chance you can get hit. Since all fire will be focused on you and there are no other targets. Bf109s with 20mms that did this against squads of b17s got damaged severely or killed upon the 2nd to 3rd pass. If you want to do this effectively fly with a squad or a wingman. Most pilots that attacked bombers' always had a wingman or a group with them regardless of the situation, which made it easier to attack said bomber due to the bomber having to split it's fire between the  planes and making passes much more effective. The more fire split between the bomber the less likely they were to get badly damaged and to decrease focused fire from all turrets.

 

Taking this into the games POV, only the AI gunners are able to split fire between multiple enemies simultaneously. While the player cannot. Henceforth again proving my earlier statement that simultaneous attacks with more than 1 person against ta bomber is and will be your best choice. /

 

 

To be honest, the only real-time pilots could maybe get away un-scaved from a bomber attack is at night, where visibility is decreased and you have the element of suprise. And where a wingman is not at all that necessary under the cover of darkness.

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Omarb13legends

[Omarb13legends 11]

On 23/12/2021 at 07:43, Drusas said:

 

Playing Sim combined battles yesterday. Had a good time vs fighters and bombing tanks. Every attack on a heavy bomber resulted in the destruction of my plane.

They get an air-spawn, 3rd person flying and arcade style gunnery controls. Hard to justify in a Sim.

With all due respect, that's a Seafire, with only 2 MK.II Hispanos not MK.V and 4 7.7mm Browning MGs. That is absolutely horrible armament to be attacking a heavy bomber with. I wouldn't expect at all for much damage to be dealt. Unless you got really close in range and just unloaded on him, even then. Most of your ammo will be wasted.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Omarb13legends

[Drusas 2,509]

18 hours ago, Omarb13legends said:

With all due respect, that's a Seafire, with only 2 MK.II Hispanos not MK.V and 4 7.7mm Browning MGs. That is absolutely horrible armament to be attacking a heavy bomber with. I wouldn't expect at all for much damage to be dealt. Unless you got really close in range and just unloaded on him, even then. Most of your ammo will be wasted.

 

I really don't understand what you are trying to do in this thread. Apart from posting a completely irrelevant something about a Seafire (????) you appear to be mounting some some sort of a defense for the current status quo re 3rd person, stabilized, mouse aim bomber gunners in Sim.

 

And you have 4 games in Sim. With only 2 kills with a plane that has MG 151 20mm cannons in it's turrets.

 

Apologies but you are going on the ignore list.

 

[esapekkis 2,659]

On 22/12/2021 at 16:46, Omarb13legends said:

Nobody? I just must be unlucky and face very experienced pilots who do it very casually...

 

Maybe you were unlucky. Or are you trying to imply that the average SB pilot casually snipes bombers from 1km range just as they please?

 

And how should we feel about the bomber turrets if in the very first SB game you played you were thrown against those super experienced SB sniper Aces and yet you managed to shoot them down 2 times while they managed to down you 4 times (unless your deaths are from crashes/AA). I'm my opinion that makes the turrets sound pretty effective.

Edited January 1, 2022 by esapekkis

[_Mics_ 49]

I'm just gonna leave this here in hopes to consolidate the effort to turn some heads in the development department at gaijin after all those years of pure neglect. I believe everyone's had enough of the trash talking infant who's abusing every advantage unfairly provided to them. Also, having the audacity to make complaints about how regular sim pilots have resulted in spawn camping to have a fighting chance against a zomber who's not much worse than this guy with the 2 kills in his sim record and handing out advice.

 

[Omarb13legends 11]

On 01/01/2022 at 06:06, Drusas said:

 

I really don't understand what you are trying to do in this thread. Apart from posting a completely irrelevant something about a Seafire (????) you appear to be mounting some some sort of a defense for the current status quo re 3rd person, stabilized, mouse aim bomber gunners in Sim.

 

And you have 4 games in Sim. With only 2 kills with a plane that has MG 151 20mm cannons in it's turrets.

 

Apologies but you are going on the ignore list.

 

My apoligies, I quoted the wrong thing, someone else mentioned something about a Seafire not you. Second those 4 games showed me how players generally approached bombers, so what if it had a mg151 cannon? Those aren't easy to lead and aim vs. a .50cal that can consistently hit you with much better accuracy. Now tell me, what about the planes that have the first person option (only with single gunners) Il-28, bf-110 etc, they have 1st person options. What are the status of those types of planes in sim. If bomber models or interiors were furnished and completed than maybe they could consider a 1st person mode for gunners by switching povs, but since they don't even half of the bombers in war thunder with fully modeled gunner point of views and gunsights it would be very unusable. Heck if they even considered taking the time to implement that. I I don't need heavy experience to talk about how I know players generally approach a bomber and don't actually try to use different tactics to engage them.

On 01/01/2022 at 10:00, esapekkis said:

 

Maybe you were unlucky. Or are you trying to imply that the average SB pilot casually snipes bombers from 1km range just as they please?

 

And how should we feel about the bomber turrets if in the very first SB game you played you were thrown against those super experienced SB sniper Aces and yet you managed to shoot them down 2 times while they managed to down you 4 times (unless your deaths are from crashes/AA). I'm my opinion that makes the turrets sound pretty effective.

Not entirely true, once again they were not easy to aim, and they did significant damage to me equally, those other deaths were from surprisingly smart pilots that took a different approach from the side in a quick pass instead of trying to coming in from directly behind like the average sim pilot does. I'm surprised they actually took the time to do that, because most don't have that kind of patience. And no I am not implying the average SB pilot does that, it's rare you ever see that happen.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Omarb13legends

[esapekkis 2,659]

2 hours ago, Omarb13legends said:

Now tell me, what about the planes that have the first person option (only with single gunners) Il-28, bf-110 etc, they have 1st person options. What are the status of those types of planes in sim.

 

The status with single turret planes in Sim is that they have the option to user 3rd person turret view.

 

Gaijin won't be implementing (the optional) first person turret view for multi turret planes. Just like they will not make any cockpits for bombers to replace the "placeholder" ones.

Edited January 4, 2022 by esapekkis

[bearchills 427]

2 hours ago, Omarb13legends said:

 ..4 games showed me how players generally approached bombers, so what if it had a mg151 cannon?

..Those aren't easy to lead and aim vs. a .50cal that can consistently hit you with much better accuracy. 

..I don't need heavy experience to talk about how I know players generally approach a bomber ..like the average sim pilot.. 

..most don't have that kind of patience.

..it's rare you ever see that happen.

What an absolute joke. 

Not even 2 hours in SIM, and less than an hour playing bombers. 

You are entirely ill-equipped to make any of these statements. 

 

The amount of time you've spent in SIM is insignificant. Negligible even. 

You have no business talking like you know how an average SIM player plays, or talking about what is or isn't rare to see.

Having barely any play time doesn't even come close to giving you enough experience with the mode and the players to make these kinds of claims. 

 

And you honestly can't say what's hard or easy, because you've had no meaningful amount of time to practice. Give it a few more games, let's watch your air kills in bombers increase while you barely manage to get one or two kills in a fighter. 

 

Rest assured, we all know what it means when a total beginner to SIM, with no amount of time to hone a skill, gets kills in their first games with bomber gunners but can't with fighters. 

[_Mics_ 49]

22 hours ago, bearchills said:

Rest assured, we all know what it means when a total beginner to SIM, with no amount of time to hone a skill, gets kills in their first games with bomber gunners but can't with fighters. 

 

Have you ran into those in-game gurus giving lectures on how to engage a bomber with your fighter (typing while flying around that is, which only means 1 thing) or the occasional 6 year old talking trash after every mouse kill bragging like they've won a gold in an olympic sport or smth? Our bomber dude over here fits the stereotype

[Omarb13legends 11]

On 05/01/2022 at 11:43, _Mics_ said:

 

Have you ran into those in-game gurus giving lectures on how to engage a bomber with your fighter (typing while flying around that is, which only means 1 thing) or the occasional 6 year old talking trash after every mouse kill bragging like they've won a gold in an olympic sport or smth? Our bomber dude over here fits the stereotype

Yeah, let's just say that. And then you have the occasional smart mouth like you, giving it off over here.

Look if Gajin isn't going to implement or fix any of this, what's the sense of even talking about it in the first place.

[Omarb13legends 11]

On 04/01/2022 at 13:19, bearchills said:

What an absolute joke. 

Not even 2 hours in SIM, and less than an hour playing bombers. 

You are entirely ill-equipped to make any of these statements. 

 

The amount of time you've spent in SIM is insignificant. Negligible even. 

You have no business talking like you know how an average SIM player plays, or talking about what is or isn't rare to see.

Having barely any play time doesn't even come close to giving you enough experience with the mode and the players to make these kinds of claims. 

 

And you honestly can't say what's hard or easy, because you've had no meaningful amount of time to practice. Give it a few more games, let's watch your air kills in bombers increase while you barely manage to get one or two kills in a fighter. 

 

Rest assured, we all know what it means when a total beginner to SIM, with no amount of time to hone a skill, gets kills in their first games with bomber gunners but can't with fighters. 

Your right, and how long has this game been out? If it's that detrimentally bad Gajin would of fixed something or did something by now right, no  they have not.  And, no I don't play Sim in War thunder because why bother when I can play il2 series games. Tons of practice there approaching bombers differently and strategically, I'm just saying that in WarThunder I notice players don't take that same type of approach and go for the more generic way of engaging them. And I didn't say I did not understand how the gunners view and aiming abilities is broken, but once again almost a decade everyone's talked about this and no actions has been taken. How much longer are we going to on about this.